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#endgame
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 03:38 AM
I've been considering this idea after seeing it raised in some other thread, and I now believe that it won't be that useful.
If you staple before a city coes to size 2, you will then need to rush the C-pod and the base will drop to size one, with 9 turns of staple remaining.
Now, the average size one base (+0 growth) has 20 nutboxes to fill before growing, so with:
+1 nut: growth in 21 turns
+2 nuts: growth in 11 turns
+3 nuts: growth in 7 turns
So, for a base stapled before it grows to size 2, you will need to have a +3 nut square (or +2 nuts and rec tanks) to see any benefit. Further, you will save at most 2 turns of not needing a doctor, which equates (roughly) to +1 minerals for one turn(since if we are stapling, we aren't running FM, and nuts aren't that important if we are going to rush a pod anyway.) Also, to do any better thatn +1 mins from that notdoctor, we'd need a min special in the base radius, which isn't that common.
In short, I don't believe that it's worth it.
jtsisyoda
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 06:32 AM
Sometimes the benefits seem paltry, I agree. It's usually not a panacea of resource utilization. But it can help a little, and little gains can compound over time. If you staple then go FM, it's still stapled, so we can staple in advance, too. But since we don't get commerce in the first twenty years because we have no commlinks, there is really no downside. Why not take a mineral or two if it's free?
However, if the majority have a distaste for the human rights violation aspect, then I won't advocate it as a strategy.
#endgame
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 07:10 AM
Since you're rushing pods to maximise the staple, you save 4ec total, I think. But, running FM and getting +1 energy per turn from that one worker over the 10 turn growth period of the city = +10 energy over the same period. I can see the benefits if you're too poor to rush, then the +1 min might make the difference, but then you'd be better of in FM and rushing stuff, methinks.
jtsisyoda
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 08:34 AM
I certainly don't advocate stapling as an alternative to FM. If the opportunity presents itself to use nervestapling, I'll take it, but I don't go out of my way. For strategies that research Biogen first, you have quite a few years before you're able to run FM.
Chaunk
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 11:23 AM
My main problem with early stapling is the atrocities count for the faction. This is permanent and never changes down, and so if we nerve staple early, we'll never hear the end of the ai telling us we shouldn't nerve staple our own faction. This could seriously damage our chances of good commerce from the ai, which can only be a bad thing.
jtsisyoda
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 07:29 PM
I didn't know it worked that way. Is there a way to confirm this?
#endgame
Posted: Jun 25 2004, 05:51 AM
From playing some test games, I found that on a large map, you can research Industrial Economics in 6 or less turns, and then switch to FM to get Biogenetics in about 3. If you're lucky and get a river, you can get Ind.Eco in 4 and Biogen in 2. That's how I usually start, move to FM on turn 4, rush 2 R-Tanks on turn 6.
Archaic
Posted: Jun 25 2004, 04:04 PM
I thought it went away if the charter went byebye.
jtsisyoda
Posted: Jun 25 2004, 05:47 PM
Probably, but I don't think we'll want to repeal the charter. Our lower pop limits make us more vulnerable than most to nerve gas.
Archaic
Posted: Jun 29 2004, 05:23 AM
If our primary ally ends up being a gas user, it might be worthwhile though.
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 03:38 AM
I've been considering this idea after seeing it raised in some other thread, and I now believe that it won't be that useful.
If you staple before a city coes to size 2, you will then need to rush the C-pod and the base will drop to size one, with 9 turns of staple remaining.
Now, the average size one base (+0 growth) has 20 nutboxes to fill before growing, so with:
+1 nut: growth in 21 turns
+2 nuts: growth in 11 turns
+3 nuts: growth in 7 turns
So, for a base stapled before it grows to size 2, you will need to have a +3 nut square (or +2 nuts and rec tanks) to see any benefit. Further, you will save at most 2 turns of not needing a doctor, which equates (roughly) to +1 minerals for one turn(since if we are stapling, we aren't running FM, and nuts aren't that important if we are going to rush a pod anyway.) Also, to do any better thatn +1 mins from that notdoctor, we'd need a min special in the base radius, which isn't that common.
In short, I don't believe that it's worth it.
jtsisyoda
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 06:32 AM
Sometimes the benefits seem paltry, I agree. It's usually not a panacea of resource utilization. But it can help a little, and little gains can compound over time. If you staple then go FM, it's still stapled, so we can staple in advance, too. But since we don't get commerce in the first twenty years because we have no commlinks, there is really no downside. Why not take a mineral or two if it's free?
However, if the majority have a distaste for the human rights violation aspect, then I won't advocate it as a strategy.
#endgame
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 07:10 AM
Since you're rushing pods to maximise the staple, you save 4ec total, I think. But, running FM and getting +1 energy per turn from that one worker over the 10 turn growth period of the city = +10 energy over the same period. I can see the benefits if you're too poor to rush, then the +1 min might make the difference, but then you'd be better of in FM and rushing stuff, methinks.
jtsisyoda
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 08:34 AM
I certainly don't advocate stapling as an alternative to FM. If the opportunity presents itself to use nervestapling, I'll take it, but I don't go out of my way. For strategies that research Biogen first, you have quite a few years before you're able to run FM.
Chaunk
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 11:23 AM
My main problem with early stapling is the atrocities count for the faction. This is permanent and never changes down, and so if we nerve staple early, we'll never hear the end of the ai telling us we shouldn't nerve staple our own faction. This could seriously damage our chances of good commerce from the ai, which can only be a bad thing.
jtsisyoda
Posted: Jun 24 2004, 07:29 PM
I didn't know it worked that way. Is there a way to confirm this?
#endgame
Posted: Jun 25 2004, 05:51 AM
From playing some test games, I found that on a large map, you can research Industrial Economics in 6 or less turns, and then switch to FM to get Biogenetics in about 3. If you're lucky and get a river, you can get Ind.Eco in 4 and Biogen in 2. That's how I usually start, move to FM on turn 4, rush 2 R-Tanks on turn 6.
Archaic
Posted: Jun 25 2004, 04:04 PM
I thought it went away if the charter went byebye.
jtsisyoda
Posted: Jun 25 2004, 05:47 PM
Probably, but I don't think we'll want to repeal the charter. Our lower pop limits make us more vulnerable than most to nerve gas.
Archaic
Posted: Jun 29 2004, 05:23 AM
If our primary ally ends up being a gas user, it might be worthwhile though.