Tweet
AndiD
Following the thoughts by 'yoda about inserting Doc:Flex very early (maybe even before IA), here is a list of things to expect when popping pods with a transport foil early on:
Edit: Unflawed (and more) tables further below, this one has a serious problem with the materials pod results...
Year: 2126, 60 pod pops (same pod with reload) in the water, each with a transport foil
Some conclusions
=> no pod pops in ocean because of IoD danger (0,4 chance compared to 0,1 chance in shelf)
=> pod pops adjacent to base do not generate IoDs but material pods :-)
=> Most common are AAs (nice to cash in for SPs), credits (always nice) and kelp
Some other findings:
If foil is moved away from IoD and the IoD is close to land, it will disembark worms
or spore launchers instead of attacking the foil
=> Pod-popping should always be FIRST move of the foil
=> Pod-popping in fungus does not allow such an escape (additional risk)
Impaler
Nice reserach, its hard though to tell whats what cause of the Colums, Can you break down the stuff by % for us. Oh and I think this is worth of posting on Poly and seeing what the responses are.
-- Fear is the Mind Killer
Chaunk
No, I say we should leave this off poly for a while, and do some more testing ourselves. We're looking to win the game here, expanding the general SMACX knowledge of people should be very much second.
Nice work AndiD. I wonder what those percentages would be with regard to land popping pods.
Perhaps we should pop pods in ocean only with an escort foil nearby?
Googlie
Some additional thoughts
Early pod-popping with a Unity Foil (transport) is fraught with danger outside a base radius 'cos of its 2 movement points - can't escape readily
Unity Foil will survive an IoD attack before 2114
IoD's will always move towards the nearest landmass (if there's no trannie or gunship to attack), so when popping, for added safety, always approach from the seaward side
pre-podpopping with a gunship (or maybe even with a trannie), always adjust the build in the nearest base to a facility (unless there is a strong minerals penalty) to take advantage of a facilities completion podpop
A tested tactic is to twin a trannie with a gunship (especially if empath enabled or if we have the Dream Twister) - pop with the trannie and kill (or capture, if a good planet rating) the IoD with the gunship
Never, never, pop a pod with a trannie if the trannie is already full. Somehow the game engine looks at that and delivers an IoD rather than energy or fac completion
jtsisyoda
Nice work. For land pods, some things are similar... pods right next to a base don't produce worms, and have a high chance of getting really good results.
Whenever popping pods, you can always set the nearest city to build an expensive facility or uber-crawler. If it doesn't auto-complete, you can set the production back to the original build and it will give you the minerals back. Very handy.
A big benefit of getting Flex early is that you can set the base to produce rover crawlers when popping pods (land or sea). They're very expensive-- a trance synth rover crawler is almost enough to build WP or HGP all by itself. Imagine the immense turn advantage that entails.
I agree we can wait on posting to poly.
AndiD
Ok, here is the table with percentages... instead of recalculating every cell, I just had a little bit more fun and did 40 more pod-visits with the transport in each "scenario".
Edit: Unflawed (and more) tables further below, this one has a serious problem with the materials pod results...
Year: 2126
100 pod pops with a transport foil
or in short:
IoD: never adjacent to base, ~10% in shelf, ~40% in ocean
Tidal wave: ~5%-10%
Sonar: ~15%
Kelp: ~15% except in ocean
Foil: 3%-10%
Rover ~5%-10%
Ogre: <5%
AA: 15-25% in shelf, <5% in ocean
Resupply: 10-15% (~33% 100 Cr, ~24% 75 Cr, ~28% 50 Cr, ~15% 25 Cr)
Datapod: ~5% (~50%/50% tech / comm frequency)
Clone: <1%
Materials: ~15% adjacent to base, ~1% in shelf, never in ocean
I find it very difficult to tell whether fungus has any significant effect on the results, the IoD probability seems equally "low". The downside is the inability to escape, maybe we could "waste" Unity foils on pods in fungus?
Other thoughts:
- Gunships may be nice, but Market is still nicer for us I think. ;-)
- Unity foils before 2115 can only result of popping coastal land pods (if you go for CentEcol first of course and aren't playing Santiago or Sven or Zak)
- A Unity foil can still have one move of escape depending on the circumstances (and one move is enough if near a landmass)
Doing this for land pods (coastal, inland, fungus) is a bit more difficult since there may be two events connected (e. g. resource special and mindworms) and we will pop them anyway. ;-)
AndiD
My tables above have one significant flaw: Every base was at size 1 and producing colony pods except that base the transport started from. So the materials probability is completely off.
I also did that pod game for a non-transport probe foil (neither AA, Rover, Ogre, Unity Foil can get popped)
I ommitted a shelf fungus test since in my view the results weren't significantly different from a non-fungus shelf pod.
Year: 2126
100 pod pops with a TRANSPORT foil and nearest base size 1 and producing a colony pod
*NOT the colony pod was finished, that pod was presumably nearest to another base
100 pod pops with a PROBE foil and nearest base producing a facility
Some conclusions:
- IoD appears significantly more in ocean than in shelf (and is more dangerous there, too)
- IoD appearance is about the same for transports and non-transports
- Materials pod seems to be around ~15% for transport and ~20% for non-transport IF there is something to auto-complete
- Resupply is also around ~15-20%, indepedent of ship type and position
- AA is also around ~15-20% for a transport
- One of Foil, Rover, Ogre is around ~10% for a transport
=> every second pod popped with a transport and a unit/a facility nearby to auto-complete is materials, resupply, a unit or an AA
(I call that a serious argument for early Flex, let's wait for the internal PBEM)
Since pod popping with a probe foil is even less dangerous (+1 movement than transport) we can probably do that safely, too.
Archaic
One thing I would recommend.
Screw researching Doc. Flex for ourselves. This is one of the few techs I've found the AI loves to research the first chance it gets. We have very little to lose trading (Oh, boo-hoo, we gave an AI Cent. Eco/Ind Base/insert other lowly tech here), and everything to gain (Treaty/Pact, friendly AI faction, you know the drill). Why screw up our early beeline to IA when we could have both techs on the same turn?
Of course, this hinges on meeting an AI faction early on from just the land exploration, but given pods and the fact this is only a large world, I don't think that's all that unlikely.
Chaunk
We do need to bear in mind that the ai will happily give anyone any tech we give them, so it's best to only give the ai techs we don't care about, or that the majority of the human players already have. I agree with you Archaic about not researching doc:flex before IndAuto (usually probably... formless and all that!) but if we've got indauto and have met no one, then it's time for flex, and a few boats int' water.
jtsisyoda
I favor probe foils as our first explorers, because they're faster than transports, are support-free, and can infiltrate factions they find. Since we'll research Ind Econ very early, once we get PlanNets for the probes, we could go to IA immediately, then pick up Flex soon after. This gives us opportunity to find and trade with the AI, while still making it a priority, which might be a good compromise of a plan. Plus, if we get IA before Flex, we can build PTS and maybe finish the probe ship(s) sooner because of the mineral and energy boost.
Chaunk
I agree wholeheartedly on the probe foil explorer front. However, it'd be great if we can keep one foil probe around for popping pods next to bases. Since there's no risk of an IoD, the extra chance for an AA shouldn't be passed up. It might be worth thinking about the MMC project from Doc:Init as a worthwile second rate project perhaps too, especially if we get doc:Flex early.
Archaic
Reply to : Chaunk
Agreed. If we've got no comlinks, we really need to scramble to find the other factions before they get bribed against us.
jtsisyoda
You mean one transport for getting AA's? Sounds fine to me.
Chaunk
Reply to : jtsisyoda
Crap yeah I do...
Following the thoughts by 'yoda about inserting Doc:Flex very early (maybe even before IA), here is a list of things to expect when popping pods with a transport foil early on:
Edit: Unflawed (and more) tables further below, this one has a serious problem with the materials pod results...
Year: 2126, 60 pod pops (same pod with reload) in the water, each with a transport foil
Code:
Results: (best to copy&paste that table and format it in Courier) ................Squre adjacent to base..Shelf...........Shelf fungus....Ocean IoD.............0.......................8...............10..............24 Tidal wave......2.......................4...............6...............2 Sonar...........6.......................7...............10..............9 Kelp............11......................8...............6...............0 Unity Foil......2.......................7...............3...............7 Unity Rover.....4.......................2...............2...............5 Ogre............0.......................3...............0...............4 Alien Artifact..11......................14..............9...............1 Resupply........12 (5x100,2x75,.........4 (2x100, 1x75..8 (3x100,3x75...8 (1x100,3x75 ....................4x50,1x25).............1x50)...........2x50)...........3x50, 1x25) Datapod.........3 (1 Comm, 2 Tech)......4 (2C, 2T)......4 (1C, 3T)......1 (1T) Clone...........0.......................0...............1...............0 Materials.......9.......................0...............1...............0 ................==......................==..............==..............== ................60......................60..............60..............60
=> no pod pops in ocean because of IoD danger (0,4 chance compared to 0,1 chance in shelf)
=> pod pops adjacent to base do not generate IoDs but material pods :-)
=> Most common are AAs (nice to cash in for SPs), credits (always nice) and kelp
Some other findings:
If foil is moved away from IoD and the IoD is close to land, it will disembark worms
or spore launchers instead of attacking the foil
=> Pod-popping should always be FIRST move of the foil
=> Pod-popping in fungus does not allow such an escape (additional risk)
Impaler
Nice reserach, its hard though to tell whats what cause of the Colums, Can you break down the stuff by % for us. Oh and I think this is worth of posting on Poly and seeing what the responses are.
-- Fear is the Mind Killer
Chaunk
No, I say we should leave this off poly for a while, and do some more testing ourselves. We're looking to win the game here, expanding the general SMACX knowledge of people should be very much second.
Nice work AndiD. I wonder what those percentages would be with regard to land popping pods.
Perhaps we should pop pods in ocean only with an escort foil nearby?
Googlie
Some additional thoughts
Early pod-popping with a Unity Foil (transport) is fraught with danger outside a base radius 'cos of its 2 movement points - can't escape readily
Unity Foil will survive an IoD attack before 2114
IoD's will always move towards the nearest landmass (if there's no trannie or gunship to attack), so when popping, for added safety, always approach from the seaward side
pre-podpopping with a gunship (or maybe even with a trannie), always adjust the build in the nearest base to a facility (unless there is a strong minerals penalty) to take advantage of a facilities completion podpop
A tested tactic is to twin a trannie with a gunship (especially if empath enabled or if we have the Dream Twister) - pop with the trannie and kill (or capture, if a good planet rating) the IoD with the gunship
Never, never, pop a pod with a trannie if the trannie is already full. Somehow the game engine looks at that and delivers an IoD rather than energy or fac completion
jtsisyoda
Nice work. For land pods, some things are similar... pods right next to a base don't produce worms, and have a high chance of getting really good results.
Whenever popping pods, you can always set the nearest city to build an expensive facility or uber-crawler. If it doesn't auto-complete, you can set the production back to the original build and it will give you the minerals back. Very handy.
A big benefit of getting Flex early is that you can set the base to produce rover crawlers when popping pods (land or sea). They're very expensive-- a trance synth rover crawler is almost enough to build WP or HGP all by itself. Imagine the immense turn advantage that entails.
I agree we can wait on posting to poly.
AndiD
Ok, here is the table with percentages... instead of recalculating every cell, I just had a little bit more fun and did 40 more pod-visits with the transport in each "scenario".
Edit: Unflawed (and more) tables further below, this one has a serious problem with the materials pod results...
Year: 2126
100 pod pops with a transport foil
Code:
................Adjacent to base....Shelf............Shelf fungus.....Ocean IoD.............0...................11...............13...............36 Tidal wave......2...................6................9................5 Sonar...........14..................11...............17...............16 Kelp............15..................15...............12...............0 Foil............3...................10...............3................12 Rover...........8...................4................6................5 Ogre............1...................3................0................4 AA..............15..................24...............15...............3 Resupply........17 (7x100,3x75,.....10 (4x100,1x75...16 (5x100,6x75...15 (3x100,4x75 ....................4x50,3x25)..........4x50, 1x25)......3x50, 2x25)......4x50, 3x25) Datapod.........8 (5 Comm, 3 Tech)..6 (4C, 2T).......6 (1C, 5T).......3 (1C, 2T) Clone...........0...................0................1................1 Materials.......17..................0................2................0 ................===.................===..............===..............=== ................100.................100..............100..............100
IoD: never adjacent to base, ~10% in shelf, ~40% in ocean
Tidal wave: ~5%-10%
Sonar: ~15%
Kelp: ~15% except in ocean
Foil: 3%-10%
Rover ~5%-10%
Ogre: <5%
AA: 15-25% in shelf, <5% in ocean
Resupply: 10-15% (~33% 100 Cr, ~24% 75 Cr, ~28% 50 Cr, ~15% 25 Cr)
Datapod: ~5% (~50%/50% tech / comm frequency)
Clone: <1%
Materials: ~15% adjacent to base, ~1% in shelf, never in ocean
I find it very difficult to tell whether fungus has any significant effect on the results, the IoD probability seems equally "low". The downside is the inability to escape, maybe we could "waste" Unity foils on pods in fungus?
Other thoughts:
- Gunships may be nice, but Market is still nicer for us I think. ;-)
- Unity foils before 2115 can only result of popping coastal land pods (if you go for CentEcol first of course and aren't playing Santiago or Sven or Zak)
- A Unity foil can still have one move of escape depending on the circumstances (and one move is enough if near a landmass)
Doing this for land pods (coastal, inland, fungus) is a bit more difficult since there may be two events connected (e. g. resource special and mindworms) and we will pop them anyway. ;-)
AndiD
My tables above have one significant flaw: Every base was at size 1 and producing colony pods except that base the transport started from. So the materials probability is completely off.
I also did that pod game for a non-transport probe foil (neither AA, Rover, Ogre, Unity Foil can get popped)
I ommitted a shelf fungus test since in my view the results weren't significantly different from a non-fungus shelf pod.
Year: 2126
100 pod pops with a TRANSPORT foil and nearest base size 1 and producing a colony pod
Code:
................Adjacent to base....Shelf............Shelf fungus.....Ocean IoD.............-...................10...............13...............36 Tidal wave......-...................6................9................5 Sonar...........-...................11...............17...............16 Kelp............-...................15...............12...............0 Foil............-...................10...............3................12 Rover...........-...................4................6................5 Ogre............-...................3................0................4 AA..............-...................24...............15...............3 Resupply........-...................10 (4x100,1x75...16 (5x100,6x75...15 (3x100,4x75 ........................................4x50, 1x25)......3x50, 2x25)......4x50, 3x25) Datapod.........-...................6 (4C, 2T).......6 (1C, 5T).......3 (1C, 2T) Clone...........-...................0................1................1 Materials.......-...................0................2*...............0 ................===.................===..............===..............=== ................- .................100..............100..............100
Code:
100 pod pops with a TRANSPORT foil and nearest base producing a unit or facility: ................Adjacent to base....Shelf............Shelf fungus.....Ocean IoD.............0...................15...............-................25 Tidal wave......2...................9................-................4 Sonar...........14..................14...............-................19 Kelp............15..................10...............-................0 Foil............3...................3................-................3 Rover...........8...................3................-................4 Ogre............1...................0................-................2 AA..............15..................16...............-................13 Resupply........17 (7x100,3x75,.....7 (2x100,2x75....-................15 (4x100,3x75 ....................4x50,3x25).........1x50, 2x25)...-....................2x50, 6x25) Datapod.........8 (5 Comm, 3 Tech)..7 (6C, 1T).......-................2 (1C, 1T) Clone...........0...................0................-................0 Materials.......17..................16...............-................13 ................===.................===..............===..............=== ................100.................100..............-................100
Code:
................Adjacent to base....Shelf............Shelf fungus.....Ocean IoD.............0...................19...............-................30 Tidal wave......7...................4................-................7 Sonar...........21..................17...............-................17 Kelp............29..................18...............-................0 Resupply........16 (4x100,2x75,.....19 (1x100,5x75...-................22 (5x100,7x75 ....................3x50,7x25)..........6x50, 7x25)..-....................6x50, 4x25) Datapod.........5 (5 Comm, 0 Tech)..5 (3C, 2T).......-................6 (3C, 3T) Clone...........0...................2................-................0 Materials.......22..................16...............-................18 ................===.................===..............===..............=== ................100.................100..............- ..............100
- IoD appears significantly more in ocean than in shelf (and is more dangerous there, too)
- IoD appearance is about the same for transports and non-transports
- Materials pod seems to be around ~15% for transport and ~20% for non-transport IF there is something to auto-complete
- Resupply is also around ~15-20%, indepedent of ship type and position
- AA is also around ~15-20% for a transport
- One of Foil, Rover, Ogre is around ~10% for a transport
=> every second pod popped with a transport and a unit/a facility nearby to auto-complete is materials, resupply, a unit or an AA
(I call that a serious argument for early Flex, let's wait for the internal PBEM)
Since pod popping with a probe foil is even less dangerous (+1 movement than transport) we can probably do that safely, too.
Archaic
One thing I would recommend.
Screw researching Doc. Flex for ourselves. This is one of the few techs I've found the AI loves to research the first chance it gets. We have very little to lose trading (Oh, boo-hoo, we gave an AI Cent. Eco/Ind Base/insert other lowly tech here), and everything to gain (Treaty/Pact, friendly AI faction, you know the drill). Why screw up our early beeline to IA when we could have both techs on the same turn?
Of course, this hinges on meeting an AI faction early on from just the land exploration, but given pods and the fact this is only a large world, I don't think that's all that unlikely.
Chaunk
We do need to bear in mind that the ai will happily give anyone any tech we give them, so it's best to only give the ai techs we don't care about, or that the majority of the human players already have. I agree with you Archaic about not researching doc:flex before IndAuto (usually probably... formless and all that!) but if we've got indauto and have met no one, then it's time for flex, and a few boats int' water.
jtsisyoda
I favor probe foils as our first explorers, because they're faster than transports, are support-free, and can infiltrate factions they find. Since we'll research Ind Econ very early, once we get PlanNets for the probes, we could go to IA immediately, then pick up Flex soon after. This gives us opportunity to find and trade with the AI, while still making it a priority, which might be a good compromise of a plan. Plus, if we get IA before Flex, we can build PTS and maybe finish the probe ship(s) sooner because of the mineral and energy boost.
Chaunk
I favor probe foils as our first explorers, because they're faster than transports, are support-free, and can infiltrate factions they find. Since we'll research Ind Econ very early, once we get PlanNets for the probes, we could go to IA immediately, then pick up Flex soon after. This gives us opportunity to find and trade with the AI, while still making it a priority, which might be a good compromise of a plan. Plus, if we get IA before Flex, we can build PTS and maybe finish the probe ship(s) sooner because of the mineral and energy boost.
Archaic
Reply to : Chaunk
We do need to bear in mind that the ai will happily give anyone any tech we give them, so it's best to only give the ai techs we don't care about, or that the majority of the human players already have. I agree with you Archaic about not researching doc:flex before IndAuto (usually probably... formless and all that!) but if we've got indauto and have met no one, then it's time for flex, and a few boats int' water.
jtsisyoda
You mean one transport for getting AA's? Sounds fine to me.
Chaunk
Reply to : jtsisyoda
You mean onetransportfor getting AA's? Sounds fine to me.