Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Yes, I am certain that talking can solve our problems.

(irony...)

"Thank U India!" Courtesy of Alanis Morrisette

Wait for it... she actually says "Thank you India"

Anyway Since India is sticking in there, I think we need subs for China, Vikings and Zulu. Isnt that right?

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

And for example what if I had asked your help against the Zulus not knowing that you are subbing them? I would be very very mad if it turns out later.

This statement perfectly illustrates exactly why subbing MUST be done quietly. Already the Don Quixote Windmill dragons are being fought

1. This hypothetical is absurd. Arabia has no reason to need help against the Zulus so the situation you describe would never happen. Not to mention the fact that Turkey is openly allied with Zulu, and was fighting a War to PROTECT the Zulus since before you joined the game. Why would ANYONE ask for Turkey's help against the Zulus? Especially since it is well known IC that all African Nations are under Russo-Turk protection since the Great War. So your hypothetical just doesn't make any sense or have any relevance.

2. Even assuming you did make such an absurd request (Turkey help Arabia attack Zulu), I would have just said "No, Zulu are allies of Turkey" and that would be the end of it. What would be the great harm or grievance to Arabia in that? You are trying to manufacture a controversy where none exists, which is exactly what always happens in these types of situations, people start coming up with all these imaginary overblown hypothetical grievances and conspiracy theories. This is exactly why public subbing does not work.

3. Most importantly what you are admitting is exactly what I have been saying all along. You would be mad to find out about a subbing situation. That is always how it goes, people are always resentful and suspicious of civs being subbed, whether they find out later or whether they are reminded about it every turn. The difference is when the DONT KNOW about it, what they dont know (or don't remember) does not hurt them.

4. To turn your absurd hypothetical around... What if when you joined the game, without reading any of the history (and therefore being oblivious to the obvious Turk-Zulu alliance) you formulated a grand plan to invade the Zulus assembled your forces, developed your strategy, and actually did ask Turkey to help you invade Zulu, and I immediately informed you that Turkey was subbing for Zulu. What would happen then? You would resent that too, that you wasted all that planning and time, and then you would be resenting it every turn, more and more, that your plan was spoiled. So either way you would be mad. That is my point. Subs should be quiet, not public and visible.

5. You never asked this anyway, so there was no harm done, even if there could have been any harm (which there couldnt have been).

Of course it's always bad when a player plays more than one civilization, even if those civilizations were allies before (because alliances are not premanent, but subbing could make them to be). So this should be done only if there is no other solution and only temporarly.

Exactly, its always bad. Thank you for making my point. That is precisely why it should be done quietly.

[Arabia2 (doe)]

And for example what if I had asked your help against the Zulus not knowing that you are subbing them? I would be very very mad if it turns out later.

Of course it's always bad when a player plays more than one civilization, even if those civilizations were allies before (because alliances are not premanent, but subbing could make them to be). So this should be done only if there is no other solution and only temporarly.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Is this a temp or permanent sort of sub needed?

As I said a permanent sub is needed for the Zulu as I now refuse to sub for them anymore since it can't be done quietly.

No way, if a player subs for an other civ it must be public.

Sorry, I disagree and can not be persuaded on this issue. I have played AND hosted tons of pitboss and know all too well how the issue of subs affect the game. Subbing ruins the game because it makes the game feel like a farce. The more public the subbing is, the more quickly the game is ruined, period. I have seen this play out over and over again. The point of the sub is to be quiet so that people can continue playing as normal.

You are correct that the rules say something about subbing being public. What the rules say, is when subbing, you should put the phrase (sub) in the civs name so everyone can see it on PYT, that's it, as far as it being public. And this rule is hardly ever followed and NEVER enforced so it's moot. Plus PYT is not even in sync with civ names, so it wouldnt show up in a timely fashion anyway. So in other words, the rule about subs being public is ineffective when practiced and not being practiced anyway so... fuhgetaboudit .

Notification that a civ needs a sub and then a one-time notification that a sub has been found is plenty of notice in terms of the fact that there is a sub. We don't need alot of hulabaloo over it, and we certainly dont need to be reminded of it every turn. The idea is to get a sub for the civ quickly and quietly and hope that people forget about it quickly so the game can continue smoothly, without people remembering that one of the civs is a farce.

I will stay and fight to the death.

Thank you India. You can never be a sore loser when you stay and fight no matter the odds. Sore losers are the ones who say "Im not winning so the game isn't fun for me" and then quit.

[Israel (DoE)]

Israel is playing all by itself and all on it's own. No subs, no subbing going on.

[Russia (DoE)]

It is server-side paused until we find sub for China and whoever else is being subbed.

[Japan (DoE)]

Is the game down?

[Inca (DoE)]

The point was we have the OOC vote here and then translate it into story posts through some sort of "international league" vote or something. Given that the UN is coming up as a wonder, it makes sense to start a pre-UN league now anyway. This would be a good cause for it, and I have laid some groundwork, although it seems to have not taken, perhaps due to the complicated nature of it, or perhaps because no one is interested save the Arabs.

[India (DoE)]

Yes, I am certain that talking can solve our problems.

(irony...)

[Inca (DoE)]

Glad that you're going to continue on, India. I don't think there's any issue being a "poor loser" given what you have been up against. The rule is there to prevent players from becoming discouraged or overly frustrated, and the threshold for that is going to be different for everyone. So, just because England puts up a good fight and continues on doesn't mean someone else is a poor loser or a weaker player just because they have a lesser tolerance for it in a game that's supposed to be about having fun and telling stories.

We can make the OOC rules look IC like. I have started to provide an IC method through the CIJ. Something like that, a League of Nations or "international intervention" of sorts (please, have a seat China and India and Japan, we need to talk...).

[India (DoE)]

I will stay and fight to the death.

also, note to Inca: with the exception of the MG's that were upgraded for me, and the units I bought from Russia and Vikings before the Japanese war, I have built every single unit myself. No one is supplying me with anything.

also, the reason I did not call a measured war was:
1. I did not want to be seen as a poor loser, which is why I chose to fight back instead, at considerable cost to my civ.
2. I did not expect my rivals to be quite so greedy and unsportsmanlike (China + Japan screwing me over as much as they did)
3. What would have been the results of me calling measured war? An OOC-forced peace treaty and return of my colonies? It would create a very strong OOC hand in the IC game which I felt would be incorrect. Instead I was expecting my rivals to consider the golden rule of not screwing a civ over to the point where it would be unfun to play them, a rule that I feel has been broken in this game far too many times.

[Arabia2 (doe)]

I believe firmly that subs should be done quietly or not done at all. Now that its public, Im not managing Zulu anymore

No way, if a player subs for an other civ it must be public. I believe it is among the rules too.
For next diplogame I will have some recommendations, one of them is a way to eliminatie civs which no one is interested to play with, they are just burden. Right now it may be bad to start inventing new rules, but if we had those rules already we could divide the Zulu's cities between the lower ranked civs, they would still reamin the lowest ranked but in a bit better condition.

[Inca (DoE)]

How long have you been subbing for the Zulu? Is this a temp or permanent sort of sub needed?

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Lets stop talking about why an American alliance didnt happen. Save it for the post game discussion, pretty please, with sugar on top, or AT LEAST say it in the story thread form, not here.

Turkey is playing for Zulu currenty, but now I will cease doing that from now on, because I believe firmly that subs should be done quietly or not done at all. Now that its public, Im not managing Zulu anymore, sorry. So now Zulu need a sub too.

[Inca (DoE)]

I didn't want to do that alliance mostly because I couldn't get confirmation from the other Northerners over it. The Natives don't want to get involved in such politics, and the Americans seemed fairly undecided. The proposed alliance fell apart pretty quickly, so I wasn't willing to commit to it. I'll say that publicly. It wasn't worth completely reworking my international outlook for a just a two-party alliance, no offense Azteca.

I apologize for being public about my subbing. Normally, I'm not, but this was a complicated situation. I suppose I wasn't properly prepared for it. I guess I'll just watch from the sidelines now with my "show war". I have no problem with being removed. I've tried to convince the Empress to join the game, but, hehe, she isn't quite that into it that much. It seems to confuse her a bit. I don't know why!

Anyway, I'm playing myself and subbing (I guess no longer) for China.

I will post a thread in Civfans for the game and PM the only player left around there that I've played with before in MP. He was a pretty good player, a good sport, and put some effort into story posts, but I'm not sure he's still into Civ4 or playing at all, so we'll see. I can't do it now due to some computer issues at work.