Eager to return

Ljube · October 5, 2003, 19:39

Yes instead of using grassland, deity and I think we should use swamp. Mining a swamp would result in a transformation to ocean. The reason for this is that somebody might want to mine grassland and couldn't do it if mining would turn grassland to ocean.
This way he can still mine swamp although it takes a bit more turns to actually do it - but it's doable.

About huts, I WANT HUTS BACK!

Tell me Frank, why you don't like huts?

Frank Johnson · October 5, 2003, 21:03

Minning the swamp will work, but there will be 2 problems. #1 theres no way to "make" a swamp, so the canal sites will have to be swamp, and #2 if someone accidentally forgets and clears the swamp, then there's no way to make that canal ever. We could do minning forest though. You can both make a forest and destroy a forest so you just have to "prep" canal sites by making them a forest first.

Huts just give players unfair advantages. Also they are used to conceal cheating by giving yourself bonuses only when a hut is triggered. They can unbalance the game in both directions, since about the only way to get killed at the start of the game is to get barbs in the first hut which can happen, and I dont really want any complaints for a restart.

Rasputin · October 5, 2003, 21:24

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Saturday nights at 11pm USA Eastern time. (-5 GMT I think) Though if Prom could do 10 or 1030, it'd be better. But if not, 11 works.

ok cool well we are GMT +10 so that makes it Sunday 2pm here......

Rasputin · October 5, 2003, 21:31

Originally posted by VetLegion

Sounds great guys! I hope you lift off soon. How about a FAQ update to go with the occasion?

geez al lwe get is requests for more info LOL just kididng we glad to oblige where possible

what do you want is this FAQ ...??

Rasputin · October 5, 2003, 21:33

Originally posted by Rasputin

Its a pity we cant have them closed for early history and then open later in game as was historically done.

geez all this work from one lousy suggestion LOL

But this will make it the best HOTW yet !!!!!

Rasputin · October 5, 2003, 21:35

Originally posted by Frank Johnson

Huts just give players unfair advantages. Also they are used to conceal cheating by giving yourself bonuses only when a hut is triggered. They can unbalance the game in both directions, since about the only way to get killed at the start of the game is to get barbs in the first hut which can happen, and I dont really want any complaints for a restart.

ok i think no huts is best.. but to balance that we must have barbaians activated .

also is there a way to makwe lots of barbs for the Americas and not so many in australia. Will make it just a little harder to get free land in new world.

Frank Johnson · October 5, 2003, 22:20

I'd rather leave barbarians off as well, since they have been known to assault players based on the color of their civ, not their power.

If you want some barbarians in particular locations, I can make a few barbarian cities in the new world. They'll pump out whatever unit I have them captured with for eternity, or untill we smash them. Its up to you guys.

Rasputin · October 5, 2003, 23:27

never noticed the barb attack particualr colour but will go with your experioence on that, i think it mandatory we have barbs in new world and australia, i sugest citys pumping out horses should make it interesdting and mean you just cant send settlers to new world ..

OzzyKP · October 5, 2003, 23:32

I have no opinion on huts, barbarians, or new world natives.

And if we do it with forest we could have plains at Suez and Forest at Panama to make them blend in better with the surrounding climate. Sounds good to me.

We need a 7th! Someone read this and volunteer. See if any old diplogamers are available. CapTVK, or Capo, or... someone. I invited Moker, but I dunno if he will.

Rasputin · October 5, 2003, 23:38

didnt empress show some uinterest in playing ??

are we targeting this weekend as first one ??

if so the 2pm start mean i will play for only 3 hours...

OzzyKP · October 6, 2003, 00:08

Empress had interest, but not as a permanent player. She said she could sub.

And don't trust me on the time conversion. I'm an ethnocentric American and am not certain I'm -5 GMT, I might be off by an hour.

Rasputin · October 6, 2003, 00:29

no i checked the time diff, it says eastern US is -5....

if empress looking at this. i will probably need a sub for 2nd weekend so if she avaialble please let me know

Ljube · October 6, 2003, 01:50

Mining forest is OK.
The canal squares should be plains.

I still think huts should be there. Unbalancing maybe, but the start positions are not exactly identical, are they? So, you can't have equal conditions anyway.

I think hut luck is what makes this game great. I love getting early bonus cities and techs on the road to monarchy from huts. What's better than that?
There are six players more in the game, so if one of us gets too much out of huts, the others can have arrangements to check his expansion.
And huts are fun, cause you can't plan so much when huts are around. Imagine if you want to build a wonder you alone have the tech for. But I come across a hut and it yields the same tech I wasn't even researching at the time. So, I build the wonder - not you. Sheer luck, but I like it. And you get to curse the huts.

And huts encourage exploration.

The conclusion is that the good side of huts outweighs the bad one. In addition, huts are lots of fun. So, I vote for huts in our game.

And barbarians should be raging or even worse if possible (barbarian wrath).

In the new world, barbarians should have cities with special units that can ambush you (increased attack strength).

Rasputin · October 6, 2003, 02:06

we derfiantly must have either huts or barbarians, i ma fine with both, but will settle for either one.

they do tend to even things up a bit ....

Prometheus · October 6, 2003, 20:30

Sorry to do this guys I am going to have to drop out, I just wont be able to commit to the game the way one should. I should be around to sub on occation. Sorry..

OzzyKP · October 8, 2003, 17:01

Sorry to hear that Prom... This game is gonna be excellent. If you can't commit regularly hopefully we can count on you to sub here and there. I'm sure we'll need a few.

Moker said he could sub for an empty civ this Saturday if we need him, but he isn't interested in playing regularly.

Frank suggested that we just go with 5 players and play on a small map. I really don't want to do that, 7 players makes the game much richer and more developed. Even if we do have to have rotating subs or AI once or twice. HOTW2 did that plenty and it was the best game of them all.

But good news! Drake is interested in playing! (hopefully) so if he wants in we are very well off for HOTW4. We've got two open spots Drake, India and the Tartars (or call them what you want). I sure hope you can play.

We are hoping to start this Saturday night. Since Prom was the one who needed us to start really late, can we adjust the start time earlier by an hour or two? How about 9pm to 1am EST?

VetLegion · October 8, 2003, 18:24

Originally posted by Rasputin

geez al lwe get is requests for more info LOL just kididng we glad to oblige where possible

what do you want is this FAQ ...??

The original FAQ by CapTVK is very good, basically it needs to have the links fixed and perhaps add a couple more Q&A (I'll let you know if I think of some)

Is this the first diplogame using a scenario this elaborate? (triggered canals)

OzzyKP · October 8, 2003, 21:49

Originally posted by VetLegion
The original FAQ by CapTVK is very good, basically it needs to have the links fixed and perhaps add a couple more Q&A (I'll let you know if I think of some)

Check the last page of the FAQ thread, I added a diplogame list myself and those links should be a bit more updated. Though they may need updating too, I dunno.

Is this the first diplogame using a scenario this elaborate? (triggered canals)

No. HOTW3 was far more elaborate. Every civ had customizable civ-specific units. In the spirit of Civ3, we could design our own units and tweak their stats a bit, get unique names and pics for every civ.

Plus we had a set of native units that we put in the Americas and Australlia, it was an AI civ with strong units meant to slow down the progress of the players when we began colonizing the new world.

Once that civ was killed off, it made room for the Alien invasion. At some time in the future towards the end of the game a powerful Alien race would invade earth controlled by some 7th human (we recruited Markus for the job) and the players would have to unite to defend humanity from the Alien invasion, or one strong nation would have to gobble up the other players to be better able to defend Earth against the invasion.

Unfortunately we never got to the end of the game. It would have been sweet if we had. I think Frank did some other moding for HOTW3 too, but I forget. It was pretty complex. HOTW4 is slimmed down a bit. The canal thing is pretty damn cool though.

drake · October 9, 2003, 00:05

I myself believe the game would need something to keep the pace up in the industrial age +. Whether it be limiting units, having simul moves or something, I think the tediousness of the modern era is what has discouraged ending so many games.

Alas, saturday nights are bad for me. Sunday nights however are a possibility if that ever came up.

Whether I end up playing or not, good luck. Good to see some old civvers.

Frank Johnson · October 9, 2003, 00:22

Okay, this latest package should include all the goodies people want. Please down load it from http://home.houston.rr.com/dangime/hotw4.zip , I feel sorry for the state of apolyton's forum server, whatever its problem is.

Included this time....

Canals are made by mining forests
Huts are back
Barbarian cities appear in the new world and australia. They should produce archers indefinately.

Rasputin · October 9, 2003, 15:31

way to go frank.....

now only if icould see what was in that damn zip, hmmmmmmm civ 2 where are you !!!!!!!!!

okay this week i am going to turn my house upside down in search of my disk ........AGAIN!!!!!!

Rasputin · October 9, 2003, 18:55

ok, looks like we having some probs with apolytons images showing. I have access to webspace on m,y server so i can volunteer to store images there if necessary. PErhpas we should maintain a separate website as per HOTW2, Drake duid an excellant job with first one and I might steal some of his ideas for use in this one . So if asny one has any pictures they want included please emnail them to me at rauld@bigpond.net.au

Thanks guys

Berzerker · October 10, 2003, 02:23

I can play Saturdays, but I have a suggestion - NO DIP GUIDING! That has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen, several dips allowing a massive army to slip thru zoc. Ugh

Berzerker · October 10, 2003, 02:48

I'll take the Indians

Ljube · October 10, 2003, 02:49

They are using the wonder called diplomatic immunity.

If it's no to diplo guiding, should it also be no to caravan guiding?

What about the food caravan trick?

I suggested diplo cost be increased significantly (as well as spy cost). That should alleviate the diplo guiding capability without banning it.

I also suggest we adopt Rah rules in the part where they list and ban all possible cheats.

Rasputin · October 10, 2003, 03:25

geez you guys use too many exploits !!! i just play for the fun.

I agree no guiding should be allowed at all.

prior to paly commencing can we get a co0mplete list of what we are banning here..

any player found using banned stuff will not be invited back for anoher session

OzzyKP · October 10, 2003, 11:48

Hooray another player!

Thanks Berz.

Ok, we just need someone for the Tartars. Moker said he could play this Saturday if we need him, but couldn't do it regularly. Maybe Drake and Prom could take over for a few sessions too. Until we find a permanent player we can have it be a rotating spot. We've got 6 steady players, so that is excellent.

Raz, find that CD! We start tomorrow! How about 10pm Eastern time tomorrow evening? Just get on ICQ and we'll hook up then.

OzzyKP · October 10, 2003, 11:55

I'm ok with banning diploguiding. But we've got so many damn rules in this game... gonna be hard to keep track of everything. What is the food caravan trick?

Drake and Prom and Empress and anyone else, if you are available tomorrow it'd be great to have some subs on hand just in case.

OzzyKP · October 10, 2003, 11:57

So the roster so far is:

Ozzy - English
Deity - Some African civ
Raz - Egyptians
Frank - Chinese
Berz - Indians
Ljube - Serbs
???? - Tartars

Frank Johnson · October 10, 2003, 14:44

The food caravan trick is as follows. Build 2 food caravans, send them both to the same city in the same turn. It will get +1 pop. This can increase the population reguardless of food on hand.

This really isn't an exploit, its just a way to trade 100 sheilds for a population point, and its so inefficent I don't see why we'd ban it.

Well if we can't diplo guide....what about whatever units have no ZOC, like partisans?

What if I PARADROP paratroopers on a square to control it so I can pass ZOC? Etc etc? Let's not get too picky now folks. I'm all for no diplo / caravan guiding, but there will need to be openess for interpetation later, not, "If you break a rule, you're gone!".