The Chartroom: General Strategy and Tactics

[foolish_icarus]

(Sea) Colony pods should have a fairly high priority

[johndmuller]

There is something to be said for infantry CP's as well - They're much cheaper! OTOH, if you factor in the cost of Recycling Tanks, they cost the same, in minerals at least:
Sea Colony: 7 rows;
Inf Colony: 3 rows; Recyc: 4 rows = 7 rows.

As far as locaations go, our archipelago seemingly has sites for either - for example, the site at (47,65) on Treasure Island that I mentioned in the turn thread; there is quite possibly a place for a land based colony somewhere off to the east of the second base too.

Even though they can be said to cost the same, there are some differences, paarticularly with respect to the timing. An Inf Colony can be on its way and self sufficient in less than half the time of a Sea Colony. While the Recyc needs to be built at the new base. tying up its production and likely being slower to build there, the last 3 rows can be rushed at 2ec/min. much cheaper than all but the last 4 mins of a Sea Colony build.

The main things you get with a Sea Colony is the (disposable) ship and the ability to found a base at sea (and even beyond the Continental Shelf), so if we can plant a base on land or sea without there being a drop off in productivity, IMhO, it is a bit more efficient to do a land CP. Of course, we Pirates are not necessarily paragons of efficiency, so . . .

[Atlantian]

Though I would prefer to stay at sea, we do need a land base. A strategy I have used once with mixed results was to place one land colony on each contenent, providing you with a safe place to drop off men for, lets say, an attack. It made me weaker in the begining, but once I was established, things quickly picked up.

Besides, the infanty colony is more cost effective. I beleive we should get at least one when we go to spread ourselves out.

[Googlie]

[Atlantian]

Ooooh. Sounds Fun! Lets do that!

[FlameFlash]

I like that too!

[ThePlagueRat]

Yeah, I like these brilliant ideas. One tile islands are great, if they exist.

I am concerned, however, for the huge Seagoing-CP costs... Cause we will need a dozen of these too, in an early expansion phase. It's the most secure bases early on... Colonizing onto costs is a bit more risky.

[Hercules]

Yes they are secure an if spread out (with care ) they also allow us to establish a lot of that 1-2-1 contact with other factions.

[johndmuller]

I copied this from the turn thread; it seemed like something to talk about here instead.

[Size=1]by Googlie in the turn thread
Open 2106.

currently (at 50/0/50) you get 3ec's per turn and a new tech in 7 turns

set to 30/10/60

it drops to 2 and 6

Found new seabase

it goes to 3 ec's and next tech in 5 turns

reset sliders to 50/0/50

ec's go up to 4 perturn but the next tech goes out to 6 turns

Sure, at 30/10/60 you have a - 10% labs and a -20% econ penalty, but at 50/0/50 your labpoints are 6 per turn, and energy is 4 per year

move the research allocation from 50 to 60, and even with the 10% penalty the labpoints increase to 7 per turn (90% of 60% is greater than 100% of 50%)

ec's do drop, with the 20% penalty, and a lower allocation, but rounding (up) takes some of the sting away in those early turns

And as I've said, ec's are never a problem for the Pirates as you'll get numerous podpops that will deliver up to 200 ec's at times

Plus the impact for the pirates is marginally not so great as for the other factions, as you are starting with a -1 efficiency rating anyway, so all the penalties are being applied on a smaller base number

G.

As I said in the other thread, I'm not a really big fan of fiddling with the allocation when you get inefficiency, but the 30-10-60 does shift it a little toward labs without an overall penalty - that is, one more lab and one less econ than with 50-0-50, so in this case it seems to be a good idea, since we currently have enough pieces of eight - the psych might help with B-drones too.

It looks like a good idea for us in the short run anyway. Even though it doesn't advance the completion date of our next tech, it still will be banking the extra techpoints and so will help us eventually.

The downside is that we have to try to remember to check this out regularly, as the trade-offs will no doubt change as our population and production profiles change, so what works this turn may not work the next, and so on.

When it gets to the point where we have to take a net hit in total yield (i.e. labs + econ) in order to get more labs, the decision becomes a bit tougher - how much of a net efficiency loss are we willing to sustain in order to boost the labs production a little?

[Hercules]

Good points I'll look at it before next turn. I would like to trade lesser techs than Doc. Mob and Doc Flex. Doc Flex is our strong card. So having something else would be good. At some point if we are the tech trading company, the above becomes less important, I suspect, until other factions start to catch up.

On the other hand two of the factions are research specialists.

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by johndmuller
- how much of a net efficiency loss are we willing to sustain in order to boost the labs production a little?

Good question... Thats an important issue, and is sure will be more important as our bases grow. High effiency did help me out in many games, and so did being a leading tech faction. When we are building something important, like a secret project, or if we are being attacked by a large force, an efficiency loss is not to recommend.

Now we have the two other technology specialists factions, so being a tech trader could be a nice strategy. Or the pirate way...
- We send the seagoing probes and steal all we want!

Anyway, sooner or late I think we should have to join the tech race, but then we can build lab improvements.

[johndmuller]

As Cap'n Hercules will discover if AXT-056 ever gets going again, the Drones can be a real Heavy Hitter faction. AXT-056 contains many of the same factions and was also designed by Googlie. It has as Human players the Pirates, Cycon, Drones and PK, and as AI players Yang, Santi and the University; aside from who is AI and who is Human, the only difference is that Miriam is in for Santi.

In AXT-056, The Pirates, Drones and Cycon had a Pact for much of the first 100 years and did a lot of tech trading - Human Lal wasn't contacted until much of the trading had been done and so was somewhat behind in techs (except for being next to the University and being able to trade with them. Anyway, the fact that the Drones had ready access to all the tech enabled them to get a really good start; they got nearly all the SP's and were able to develop enough that their research rate became as good as if not better than anyone's; they also managed to get the governorship pretty cheaply, although that was more a matter of political skill and the fact that the original PK player seemed somewhat antisocial.

This, coupled with the fact that Buster, Mark and Mongoose are first rate players (I don't know about the rest, but I am sure that they are no patsies either), makes me worry about the dangers of facililtating the same sort of thing with them in this game. We are supposed to be the traders, and probably need to do a lot of trading to stay in the tech picture, so there is a problem there - do we foster trade with the Drones or not?

[ThePlagueRat]

Very good you seem to know about the opponents...
Do you have insight to their playing style too?
For example, are they possibly active traders like we are supposed to be?

[Hercules]

I thought Shadowlord3 had joined them but that name isn't there. Mongoose calculates exactly when to receive and transmit techs to minimise the tech cost increase. Our advantage when we get to size five bases is to be able to use specialists (when the appropriate techs are in place) to boost research or the economy).

We will need to discuss tech trading further when we meet our first factions.
Someone bumped the 'What best tips have you learnt from Apolyton' thread and if you are not familar with some of the ideas it is well worth the visit.

Also in the CGN Strategy Academy. Buster gave a detailed outline of a building strategy he used in the past. I suspect he has added some new tricks since.

[Googlie]

[Flubber]

Juast curious how I go about getting the password to take a look at the game-- Its hard to comment in a vacuum . I saw the word "neptune" at one point but it did not work for me-- was it changed to something else before you began

If the password is to be closely held, fair enough but I need some way to see whats going on. Perhaps it could be emailed to me.

[Flubber]

A few points that I will contribute randomly


1. Hold doc flex for dear life-- Our one biggest advantage is that we alone can rule the seas uninhibited for a time-- Trade a lot as we find folks but not this

2. I have never valued the "free tech" of SOTHB very much at all with other factions. I found that the time spent getting there delayed other more immediately needed techs and increased the cost of other techs to the point where I saw little advantage,

3. Conflicting a bit with point 2 but I see a greater value in obtaining the trance ability early for the Pirates, As big explorers, anything we can do to increase survivability of our foils is key. I can understand the attempt to get the free tech if SOTHB is something pretty valuable in its own right

4. I believe in getting to land ASAP, preferably on an island that will hold 3-6 bases. The hope is to make this the productive homeland. . . a land where mineral production is the primary focus and ringed with seabases as early warning

5 WE should be flexible as to what direction we want to head with our early techs. I see the Ind auto beeline rermaining as a decent choice. The other possibility is to try to go for impact weapons early but our mineral weaknesses probably makes an early rush of someone as a risky proposition.

6. MY choice would be to try to get probes ( plan net )fairly early and try to probesteal the ind auto techs ( pretty safe assumption that the other human players will go up that beeline). If we adopt this theory then our beelines would be plan nets and then head to other valuable techs and try to steal the remainder of the ind auto beeline before others get their probe defenses up


All of this is highly dependent on what the map reveals as to the locations of others. In the meantime, growth is the main focus with tech choices that are flexible.

I'll have more specific comments once I see the game and once I get a better sense of how the majority want to generally play the game

[Googlie]

[Flubber]

Thanks googlie


well mateys-- it looks like things are going right well as the hideouts are placed next to lots of booty arr-
Actually I only saw 2108 as it was on the main board-- before playing-- Do we have a played turn in here somewhere?

Some thoughts

1. The switch to soc psych sounds ok to me. WE wants to keep the mates from riotin' whenever it gets crowded. Build em a nice place to play, drink their rum and meet some wommen.
2. I heard tell of that feller wit book larnin' and that he hopes to find a way to make some sorta tractor. Well gollee-- I also heard of a big big mineral deposit right next to Tripoli-- well I surely would send a tractor over there to get some of them minerals right quick-- like first thing

3. Well I didn't see it on the map but I heard tell of some bubbly warm waters up north that we should try to get to-- All 'n I know is warm water means better booty

4. The plans to go to land makes sense to me . . . I always liked a place to bury me booty and hide out if'n someone sneaks up in a ship

5. I'm figurin' we should tink about scoutin' to the east. Tripli looks like its fer sure gonna be an important place and it sure would be nice not to have anyone sneak up on it

[foolish_icarus]

Guessin from the topography, there are four factions in the southern hemisphere, (inluding us and the Cyborgs), 1 probably in the mid-latitudes, and the other two in the north. The continent of Morgan’s Boot is without a doubt inhabited, as is probably the smaller continent to the ESE of the Cyborgs that is centered at about (86, 78). The small continent to the north of the geothermal shallows probably is inhabited, though not definitely. The remaining two or three factions would be located on the northern continents (it could be one big continent). These are of course guesses, but they seem to me the mostly likely places.

We won’t have to deal with the northern factions immediately. If there is indeed a faction on the small continent north of the geo shallows, we should be wary of it (possibly take it over if it is non-human). We can hope that they will be more interested in the north, either if 2 northern factions are fighting and they want a piece or if the northerners are allied and our ‘shallows friends feel threatened and concentrate on them. I suspect there will be a confrontation between us eventually, but if we act non-threatening but still display enough power we can probably put it off.

Thus the southern hemisphere is where we will need to concentrate most of our early diplomatic attention. If the other two southern factions are non-human, the obvious choice is to ally with the cyborgs and take them over. Most likely, only one of them will be non-human. In that case, and if the ‘shallows faction is also non-human, we should ally with the ‘borgs and take out the other southern human fac. We need to be careful, though, because if the human fac is located on Morgan’s boot, then WE are the obvious target. If the ‘shallows fac is human and there is one other human southern fac, then things could get tricky, and we might have to pull off a few well-timed double crosses or backstabs.
In general, though, we can’t go too far wrong by making friends with the cyborgs at this point. As for the immediate future, I agree with the peace treaty and tech trade proposal. There is always the option of course of trying to take out the Cyborgs soon, as in start within the next 10-20 years, but even if it was successful the benefits would be limited and the detriments significant.
Summary: Greatest threats are probably the ‘shallows fac and the Morgan’s Booters (if they are human). The cyborgs should only become a problem if we screw up diplomatically or get unlucky.

[johndmuller]

Thinking we might want to keep the big picture in mind a little bit while wallowing in these negotiations, I thought I'd revive this thread so we can jot down what we think we're doing and see if we are on the same page.

Cap'n Hercules pointed out that if we survive the talks with Drogue and get the IndAuto shortly, we may be able to switch out of IndAuto into Doc:Initiave and will quite likely be the only ones able to research that tech, due to our seeming monopoly on Doc:Flex. Getting Doc:Init will allow us to build the Maratime Control Center, which is, of course not a bad SP for us to have. There could possibly be others with Doc:Flex (We don't know about Miriam, the Hive and teh Drones, and I don't know that I have even checked the PUT, although I am pretty sure that neither Roze or the Borg have it.

If we have not traded ProgenPsych in the process of getting to the IndAuto, we will also likely have the possibility of being the only ones capable of going for Adaptive Econ and the Planetary Energy thing which could be as important as (dare I say more than) the MCC.

There are also Ethical Calc and its successors, which are traditionally important, and there are also weapons (NonLinear) and Armor (FieldModulation or HiEnergyChem). And there is the oft underestimated PolySoft and it's little family of stuff, leading up to Silksteel, and the SecretsOfHB which has a similar little family leading up to NG, BioEng and the more warlike of the Green techs (the MW's, IoD's and ultimately the Locusts).

Well I want all of the above, and I want them now.

We probably need to negotiate research specialization with the Borg. I don't know what they think they want to do, but it would seem reasonable for them to go the Ethical Calc route and us the Military route. However, there is a subplot; in any kind of parley with the Borg about who should do what, the various SP's that might be along the various paths are kind of in the back of everyones mind and we may need to be prepared to encounter SP-Potential envy and have otherwise good reasons for wanting to go a particular way The Military/EhicalCalc thing doesn't really address the SP's mentioned above that we might want to get, as they are somewhat tangential techs, but we do have a strong case for going for Doc:Init and the MCC, just because we are the Pirates. As to Adaptive Econ, it's probably a Morgan tech, but anyone would want the PEG, so our only case for it being us going for it is that we already have the ProgenPsych prereq for it at the moment, if the Borg had it too, it would be hard to be going for the MCC and still call dibs on the PEG in that case. The Drones and the Hive are going to be very good at getting SP's, so we can't afford to screw around (and it would probably not be a good idea to try to get 2 SP's at once). We can hope that the Borg do not want to go for the PEG in the short run, but it would be hard to claim rights to the PEG if we are also trying to assert rights on the MCC, if the Borg make an issue of it (perhaps they will be interested in more mainline SP's like the VW - unfortunately, that is where the strength of the Drones and Hive will come in, bumping the Borg from one of those SP's into one of the ones we are thinking of.

-----------

As to expansion, I'm happy with a middle ground rate, at least when it comes to our core bases in the area Googlie seeded with resource specials (so that we can get the most out of them); that seems to be what we are doing, so I'm OK with the status quo. In outlying bases without specials, we may want to be more ICS oriented and spread out so that we can see what we are missing up north, for example. Most likely there are a few deep sea locations surrounded by resource specials that we could settle and grow without much support from the homeland - it would, however, be good to be able to build them up enough to defend themselves too, before things become too dangerous for a lone base to survive long.

We need to consider whether or not we want to engage in rampant probing (and suffer the vendettas, etc., that will most likely result), or if we are going to be less aggressive. Do we want to start out our relations with the Hive and the Drones peaceful or probing. We also need to build some defensive probes (if I may say so again), particularly as Roze is in the game; perhaps Boot should turn out a few cheaper InfProbes now and then - perhaps every other build, or every third build - first for itself and any other land bases and later for the sea bases (and any 1-tile-landmass land bases we might build).

Facilities. Of course we need them and of course we need everything else too, so where is the priority for facilities like NetNodes and EBanks.

Soon we will need to think about the road to AirPower (presumably we are already thinking about (the Borg, in our behalf) going for the restriction lifting techs) and shortly afterwards if not a little in conjunction with D:AP, going for Fusion.

I'm sure I left our a major consideration or two, but basically just bumping this thread as a forum to keep track of where we think we are headed.

[foolish_icarus]

I'd go for Energy Grid over Maritime Control. It would be nice to deny MCC to everyone else, but aside from the +2 movement (which isn't that important set against airpower) it is reduntant for our faction. Better to deny PEG, especially to the Hive. Plus, if we are able to nab PEG, we still have a fari chance of acquiring MCC, which the borgs are more likely to just let us have.

Hard to tell at this point whether we should weight our navy more to psi or traditional units, we could easily go either way (e.g. psi vs. Drones, conventional vs. Believers). Obvisously this goes hand-in-hand with how much we should lean towards military tech in research.

I generally lean towards heavy production of facilities

Suggest probing any diplomatically isolated faction, but avoid getting into war with pactmates (as in, anyone who has multiple allies) .

[Hercules]

First Foolish Thanks for your contribution but could you advise about your email address. It has bounced back twice. Maybe the box needs emptied.

I like to, if I can probe everyone, it is a safeguard against achange in Dip standings or loss of Governorship.

I like to set at least one of my early bases building a SP. It is amazing how if it is left alone that so many turns later, with trawlers and such, building the SP becomes within reach. The MMC is important becuase if we don't get it, whoever does will have an edge over us in the sea.

[johndmuller]

I like that slow method of building SP's too, but it seems to be very difficult to pull off in MP games, as the other people are often into rushing them in just 1 or two turns, so when they see you with one under construction, the first thing they think about is how to build it before you can. OTOH, I really like it when you have a base building an SP that has already been built (which is the consolation prise when someone beats you to one) as you can keep accumulating mins - but you don't show up on the SP screen; people have to have infiltration and also look at your production to see it. When you are ready to build it in one turn, you can then suddenly switch to whatever you want out of the blue (and for free) and noone can beat you to it.

I think that the competition is going to be tough for SPs with both the Drones and the Hive as human players, which will make it difficult for us (even with my strategy above, another player can build an SP before we even get the tech for it, and there generally seems to be a mid-game period where available SP's are scarce, making that scenario a real possibility). Getting stuck in the middle of building an (already built) SP when there is no othere SP's available to build is a real bummer, though, forcing a bad choice between losing a lot of accumulated stuff in a switch to something too cheap or relying on hope that one becomes available to us soon enough that we don't accumulate too much.

In any of the cases where a base is sitting there slowly working on the SP thing, whether by choice or because we lost a race, that base is not available to contribute to any builds that are necessary all of a sudden like if we need to build a few quick probes to repel a probe attack we spot, or to build a quick defender for police or to replace a worm casualty. That's why I prefer not to use our good bases for SP's, to prevent them from getting stuck in that trap (which gets progressively worse if the pop grows too big for the drone control and/or hab limits). The high production bases can still contribute just as much as they would if the SP was there by producing crawlers most of the time, except when more urgent builds are required.

[Hercules]

Well decision time coming up with the completion of Doc:Init. After completing the EB at Tripoli ( and maybe one more crawler) I'd be keen to go for MCC at Tripoli. The difficulty here is in trying to rush it, if need be, what with needing the transports to ferry the land crawlers. Of course we could build foil crawlers elsewhere and then deliver them to Tripoli.

Re techs: from the discussion above it seems pirate maties are keen to go for the Adaptive Econ and the PEG after (where?) if it is offered.

My understanding of the current debate is: we hope to get a good mil tech from the Hive. We expect to get something like Ethical Calc from the Borg plus another.

We haven't really thought much about the PUT and what they might have and want to trade for Doc:Flex.

We have left Roze and Miriam alone for two turns so it might be interesting to see if Roze in particular is interested in trading for Cent Ecol. If she was then she would flip to new tech for discovery in 2/3 turns. However she might flip to something of little interest to us or maybe even Nonlinear (not sure we would want that unless we stole it pretty quickly ansd escaped detection).

Anybody know what we might expect to be offered. Do I have to start a new game?

[johndmuller]

Good idea to bring this up before the last minute, Cap'n H; perhaps I will start a poll after we get a chance to test the wind here.

Based on some very current research and a nice excel tool from this thread which I have been participating in, here is the very much probable prediction of what we will be offered next.

The tech offerings after we research Doc:Init should be:
--Ethical Calc
--Biogenetics
--Polymorphic Software
--Adaptive Economics
--Applied Physics
--Doc: Loyalty
--Field Modulation

If we somehow acquire another tech before our choice comes up, the selection will be different - PolyM, Loyalty and FieldMod will be out, and dependents of the acquired tech for which we have the other prereqs could (but not necessarily will) be in. Similarly, if we were to acquire 2 other techs before next turn, Biogen, AdaptEcon and ApplPhys will be out and additional dependents of the acquired techs may be in. Acquiring 3 techs will leave the selection the same, but for possible new techs dependent on the acquired ones.

I don't really see us researching Biogen, Polymorphic or Loyalty, as I think we are hoping to trade other low level techs for them, or have them added to deals which need additional sweetening. Polymorphic is a nice tech, but often seems to be the second choice; worth considering though. Field Modulation is of course the prereq we need to get the res-3 armor we said we wanted way back when, but do we want it now that we can get it? Adaptive Econ is for that really nice Planetary Energy Grid that we wish we could get; how much do we reallly want to get it and can we also afford to get the MCC. Finally, Ethical Calc is the gateway to a number of nice techs, but will very likely be available in the trade market and will also almost certainly be offered next turn (as it will be the 'joker' tech.).

IMhO (at the moment), we should go for either Adaptive Econ or Field Modulation, mostly because we can - and noone else can at the moment, as far as we know - and also because of what they do. As I said before, FieldMod gives us the res-3 armor, which we could use for quite some time before it goes obsolete, especially for us, being always under threat of IoD's and/or Sealurks suddenly popping up at our bases. From AdaptiveEcon, the PEG would effectively give us a base 50% increase in Econ (augmented by whatever other energy fac's we might get); IMhO, the PEG, which costs the same as the MCC, is better for us than the MCC, which we would want primarily so that someone else wouldn't get it and thereby injure our Pirate Pride by matching our NYards and outdoing us in speed. Even if we didn't getr the PEG, the TClines are pretty good for sea bases and their array of solar harnesses and without maintenance fees to boot. Best of all, they automatically reprogram Cap'n Herc's AI trained formers to perform sensible tasks without wandering around pulling skiboarders or whatever it is that they are doing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Additional detail on tech choices for those who are interested.

Effects of our choice on the subsequent round of choices:
If we research EthicalCalc, the next choice should be Biogen, AdaptiveEcon and AppliedPhysics
If we research Biogen, the next choice should be EthicalCalc, Secrets of the HB, AdaptiveEcon, and AppliedPhysics
If we research Polymorphic, the next choice should be EthicalCalc, Biogen, AdaptiveEcon, AppliedPhysics and AdaptiveDoc
If we research AdaptiveEcon, the next choice should be EthicalCalc, Biogen and Applied Physics
If we research AppliedPhysics , the next choice should be EthicalCalc, Biogen, AdaptiveEcon and NonLinearMath
If we research Doc:Loyalty , the next choice should be EthicalCalc, Biogen, AdaptiveEcon and AppliedPhysics
If we research Field Modulation, the next choice should be EthicalCalc, Biogen, AdaptiveEcon and AppliedPhysics

In short, Polymorphic, Doc:Loyalty and FieldMod will not be offered next time,
and EthicalCalc, Biogen, AdaptiveEcon and ApplPhys will be offered next time unless no matter what we research;
additionally, Biogen triggers Secrets-HB, Polymorphic triggers AdaptiveDoc, and ApplPhys triggers Nonlinear.

As above, if we acquire another tech or more, while researching our new target, the subsequent choices for the next tech after that will change. Since that is pretty likely the next round of choices will probably remain fluid, although there are certain patterns if anyone cares to go that deep into it.

[Hercules]

Yeah I visited that thread, great work by you, curiosity and minute mirage, and others.

[Makahlua]

Wow that is excellent work in the other thread

Adaptive I think is the best choice, we need those thermoclines! Then go for PEG and if someone should beat us to it, we can let it accumulate mins in stealth mode and get -our- MCC

Flubber, do you have a list or anything from the PUT as to what they have available for trade? That would help narrow down whom we ask for what

What are the chances on Roze switching to Nonlinear? I don't want to see her do that and CyCon grab it and start trading it around (they might sit on it, but then again they might -not-)

[Flubber]

The PUT have been closemouthed about what they have but have offered us eth calc for doc flex-- They did not tell us about other available techs

Note that the cycon owes us a tech from previous dealings and that tech was supposed to be ethical calc. In theory we could trade the cycon doc flex ( they are researching it) with the caveat that they must switch to eth calc and they give us another future tech plus some energy credits for our trouble.

MY vote would be to go up the adaptive econ route with the idea we COULD get the PEG.

MIlitary wise, I would much rather go for HEC as it leads toward airpower than for 3 res which does not. We could accept the Hive deal and head for HEC then look for SFF and airpower-- The downside of this is our tech rate is still slow.

I will message the Hive telling them we are considering their offer and inquiring as to nonlinear. I will also indicate that we might wish to delay the trade until after our next discovery . . . (not so much for the tech choices as the increase in tech cost)

[johndmuller]

I can vote for Adaptive Econ too if there is general interest in that one, especially if our intent is to get the PEG.

If anyone thinks there is any dissent on this, we can start a poll; otherwise we can just go with it when the time comes (that will be next turn, BTW).