DIPLO: comments on Rollplay log

DeepO · January 10, 2003, 07:44

Well, I created this simply to start some discussion. In the last reply from GodKing, a lot of info was given, and a lot was asked. I've got little time right now to analyze it, if nobody starts before me, I'll do it this evening.

Just to poke your curiosity: They are proposing at least 3 different deals, shared all the info on who they have met, and how they know we are not on their continent. Oh, and they haven't met Vox, but will be sending a boat our way soon, for which they ask to trade full minimaps, so it can arrive sooner.

Bad news: they contacted 2 other teams already, and it seems tech trading is going on at a large scale. We could very well be behind already.

DeepO

alva · January 10, 2003, 08:29

and it seems tech trading is going on at a large scale.

I never expected tech trade to be so fast in MP.
Their does seem to be some; "if we don't , we get left behind, let's trade" syndrome thing happening.

Could be the fact that it is PBEM and we are not very good at coping with the time scale of it all?!
I know that in SP I often find myself going faster trough the city build cycle when the AI has declared war on its turn. There is absolutely no reason to do so, but still...

alva · January 10, 2003, 09:17

Oh, and they haven't met Vox,

Looks like we are both wrong, I just received ND's minimap and it's not them either. I'll send it to the mailbox ASAP.

Shiber · January 10, 2003, 09:34

Perhaps one of Roleplay's neighbors are Civ X.
I think I'm starting to see the picture. We may be in the same continent as Roleplay is, with two civs - Vox and Civ X, setting us apart.

alva · January 10, 2003, 11:46

Another civ is near Vox who is toward your NE we suspect.

This collaborates with the letter from VOX, doesn't it?

DeepO · January 10, 2003, 21:44

Yes it does... but GK didn't gave everything away, we just know it is one of the 4 civs he mentioned.

Proposed deals we should start discussing:

1. Non aggresion pacts.

Non aggression pacts: For X number (we have used 50) turns after our civs meet, there will be no aggression between our peoples.

I say we agree to this, but do not go for 50 turns yet. Invasions aren't very likely, but if we have mapmaking and made contact in-game, it could very well be at the time when we have nearly all land settled... maybe they are an easy target.

2. Tech trades.

Tech trades. Keep in mind what you have, and what you want. Once our civs meet up is more appropriate time to discuss such trades, but always keep in mind the what’s. I suspect we will try to send a boat (galley) your way soon.

a galley to us soon? They are seriously going for it, possibly with the help of others. Maybe we should revise our plan and try to get a lesser wanted tech, simply to be able to trade it around. Also, we might reconsider building the GL.

3. minimap trading

Trading current mini maps is a good way we can arrange this as we will know if there are land bridges we can send it across without sinking. We have also explored a lot of land, the most of any other civ that we have traded maps with, with perhaps the exception of Lego (who we traded to first and at that time were about equal to our area).

I don't know yet... I want to trade, but OTOH it does make our lands very attractable to them, if they are really going to sail to our coasts soon. This, in combination with non-aggression, could mean they could plop 2 or 3 cities in the middel of our territory, build only a temple there, and further ship all military they have to us, to start harass us when non-aggression ends. Okay, I don't think RPG is very aggressive, but you never know. If we don't have non-aggresion, at least they will be scared a bit more, and don't start provoking us by settling cities on our continent.

4. Wonder agreements

Wonder Agreements. You build a wonder, and we build another. Even if we don't get our wonder and have to waste the shields, we will not switch to your wonder. You do the same.
- Wonders we are potentially interested in are pyramids & Great Library.
- Wonders we are not interested in are Colossus & Lighthouse.
- The great wall, hanging gardens and oracle we are debating on.

Of course they are interested in building the GL, who wouldn't. I certainly don't want to negotiate with them so that we wuldn't be able to build it. The Pyramids are something else, as we are not going to go for it (although it might make them catching up to us later on certainly a possibillity). I would answer them that for the moment we have no specific preferences, but can't commit us to a deal we might later regret. We can always blame Vox for this... if we would get a leader, I guess he is going to be spent at a wonder the first chance we get, certainly if it would be on the GL.

Other ideas anyone? I'm off to bed soon enough, but would like to send GK a reply somewhere tomorrow. Our diplomatic tension with Vox shouldn't keep us from establishing other contacts. We should be able to answer them on a few of these issues quite soonish. Others may be postponed a little.

DeepO

alva · January 10, 2003, 22:16

I say we agree to this, but do not go for 50 turns yet. Invasions aren't very likely, but if we have mapmaking and made contact in-game, it could very well be at the time when we have nearly all land settled... maybe they are an easy target.

I don't see why not, I harl think we will be cabable to launvh an invasion in 50 turns (we might have other things on our head

)

We could even try to make this a MPP as Shiver has suggested.

a galley to us soon? They are seriously going for it, possibly with the help of others.

this one caught my eye too.
Surely it's too soon for them too already have galley's (it had to be build in a coastal city, not there capital.) and mapmaking couldn't have been their top-priority either, still it is possible

3. minimap trading

I don't expect them to settle on our turf, city would too corrupt to bother IMO. But I too am not sure we should do this.

4. Wonder agreements

IMVHO we are not going to make it to build the GL. The situation with Vox is still to much on the edge to go for a wonder. But we could try to sell the info that we are not going to build it ourselves (maybe their minimap, RP not trading with VOX, a VOX like description of their land,etc...)

nbarclay · January 10, 2003, 22:23

(1) Non-aggression pacts - Any non-aggression pact we sign should also include provisions that neither side will move settlers or other units onto mainland territory that the other has a reasonable expectation of settling. That would preclude landing settlers on each other's continents and also things like stockpiling troops to use when the pact is over. (Landings with permission as part of a joint military operation would, of course, be permitted.)

(2) The tech trade issue is something we probably need to consider longer before we give an answer. One thing: if we forego Mapmaking based on a plan in advance to trade someone for it, there should be an understanding that they will provide us with contact with other civs free or at an extremely low cost (depending on how early we could have gotten Mapmaking and how difficult the crossing is) to make up for our sacrificing our ability to go out and meet them ourselves.

(3) I definitely support trading full minimaps. If you're concerned about settlers, we could include a "no settling each other's lands" clause in the exchange.

(4) I don't see any wonder agreements as being in our interest at this time. We don't have a clear enough picture of what wonders we might have a realistic chance of getting when, and as you said, there's a very real chance our best shot at a wonder will come out of the blue from a great leader.

Nathan

nbarclay · January 10, 2003, 22:26

Originally posted by alva
IMVHO we are not going to make it to build the GL. The situation with Vox is still to much on the edge to go for a wonder. But we could try to sell the info that we are not going to build it ourselves (maybe their minimap, RP not trading with VOX, a VOX like description of their land,etc...)

If we get lucky with a great leader at the right time (and if our Palace/FP situation is viable), I'd love to grab it.

DeepO · January 10, 2003, 22:32

Nathan, good catch on the non-aggression pact... also wrt the minimap trading.

Any idea on timing? 50 turns seem awfully long, I would like 20 or 30 turns better. You never know what is going to happen...

DeepO

nbarclay · January 10, 2003, 22:39

At this stage of the game, 50 sounds very good. Later in the game, it would be excessive. Perhaps we might make it something like no aggression (or any of the other no-nos) before 10 AD (the first year in the ADs) or 20 turns after meeting, whichever comes later. How does that sound? (Of course I'm not all that fond of BC-era naval landings anyhow.)

Nathan

alva · January 10, 2003, 22:44

If we get lucky with a great leader at the right time (and if our Palace/FP situation is viable), I'd love to grab it.

Sure, but I guess Leaders fall out of the equation since are very dependable, are they

-
Indeed, nice twice on the non agres pact

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We could start with 20/30 turns, see what happens, and then cancel/continue it (depending on what RP wants at that time)

DeepO · February 3, 2003, 11:59

Just a bump, if there is anything to comment on last message sent.

We might want to start discussing middle long term planning on trading research with RPG.

DeepO

zeit · February 3, 2003, 12:17

A research trade program with RPG could prove valuable, but a way to contact them is an obvious requirment- should we aim for a contact through the Vox-Lux channel, using writing, or do we aim for boats to make it, which will probably take longer.

I personally rather see us focus on other things before stopping for MM, so Writing for contact or something like that is what i'd prefer, and save MM for a bit later, especially for scouting Vox's beaches and finding an untamed island to settle. But, if RPG is going for MM anyway, or is more inclined towards sea-ferring (although that as an island we should be an effort on naval forces), we can strike a deal that would encourage them to built a navy and find us.

This way we bypass Lux (if their price for contact is too hight, and also form a (strong) relationship with a team on the continent. (besides the obvious trade benefits).

Shiber · February 3, 2003, 12:59

IMHO we're going to send a galley out there anyway. Might as well tell RP that we'll be researching MM so that they won't repeat our research, and we'll be able to sell it to them (and hopefully to Lux as well) as soon as we make contact.

asleepathewheel · February 3, 2003, 13:03

Can you ask Roleplay if they know if Lux already has writing? This has been discussed briefly in another thread. It would be a good way to check if Vox is lying or Lux is lying to Vox, and a good barometer of relations on the continent.

DeepO · February 3, 2003, 13:44

well... the message has already been sent, but if it doesn't answer itself before then, I'll ask RPG in a reply.

MM is not the highest on my agenda, but it certainly is something we can use early on. Not only do we need many contacts for a couple of reasons, but the possibilities of unclaimed continents and islands are great.

DeepO

Shiber · February 3, 2003, 14:02

The chances are slim... but yeah, that would be awesome!
This reminds me of how we settled "Uber Isle" in the C3DG, which was separated from the mainland by three sea tiles, while risking only one unloaded galley for the duration of one turn.

DeepO · February 3, 2003, 14:12

Shiber: by galley chaining? I've been experimenting with a few schemes lately, it's awesome how many instant reinforcements you can transport if you plan for it a little. Once a boat makes it across a sea our ocean tile, you almost always have a chance of sending settlers across by only risking the galleys, and not the settlers themselves.

Once you have a chain in place (possibly over treacherous water), you can transport 2 units in 1 turn from the beginning of the chain to the end, as long as you're willing to move the chain one boat. Or, you take double the amount of boats, and can transport the same amount of units, without having to invest more boats...

I was experimenting with it, as it could be a very powerthing to use against Vox, we could for instance drop off Knights the turn we discover them at the far end of their empire if we build enough boats.

DeepO

Shiber · February 3, 2003, 15:27

Yes, we used galley chaining.
You stated the special tactical advantage that galley chaining has, but I don't think we'll be able to build enough galleys to use this to our advantage. Anyway, we'll know better after one of our galleys is sent to explore the coasts of our small continent.

zeit · February 4, 2003, 12:56

Oh- setting the sails and waving the GS banner- the days of shipping will indeed be glorious!!! (and might bring us some cash and glory as well)

DeepO · February 11, 2003, 16:39

Just received a message from GodKing, explaining why he didn't get back to me: he's having computerproblems and couldn't respond. Let's hope that whoever we get as replacement is also this forecoming. We got some great info out of GK, I'm sorry to see him go

DeepO

DeepO · February 11, 2003, 18:05

And the answer to our latest proposal has arrived. I'll comment more in the morning, but my first impression is one of amazement. We are being given a full intelligence report (surely somewhat coloured) on the main continent...

Further, they are indeed researching literature, and even if they may not trust us in full (hence not wanting to deal just yet), they would want to trade with us later. I find that quite encouraging, I'm sure that if we want, we can convince them (also by pubishing the codex) that we mean it when we say we want to honor all deals.

DeepO

notyoueither · February 11, 2003, 19:22

'Publishing the codex'

What means this? I have seen it a couple of times.

As for the message from Togas... Very good. It appears as if we have someone who we can deal with. Appears...

btw, I definitely appreciated where they are coming from regarding making deals now for actions later. I am fully in agreement with their approach on this issue.

Theseus · February 11, 2003, 21:57

I say again:

"Whoa."

Interesting doing on the big continent.

It feels like this is sort of all ideal for us... we are good and honorable guys, who know how to play optimally, and are distant enough that we are not embroiled in the current difficulties.

Cool.

Diplomats, I salute you. This is your game for the time being...

Lastly, it amazes me as well how much info people are willing to share. It may be hubris, but I suspect it is because of who we are and our reputation.

DeepO · February 12, 2003, 10:07

nye: 'publishing the codex': we're preparing a codex on diplomatic relations, which amongst others formalize how we deal with proposals / final deals, and which also clrealy defines what we mean when we're talking about playing honorably.

Publishing it was meant as 'making public', which would declare it as final, ratified, accepted by our team, or whatever you want to call it. The whole idea is that if other teams see we publish it, they can assume we mean it, and it is not trivial to us.

In respect to RPG, it would make more trust possible: If they are convinced that when we have a deal, we will follow it also if the situation changes, they will probably consider us better partners... certainly as they have been crossed by Lux before.

DeepO

DeepO · February 15, 2003, 14:36

Just got a trade proposal from Togas, see the log for more info. If I understand it correctly, the only thing worth trading for would be contact with ND, as Vox doesn't have that one yet. The rest we should get for free.

Maybe we should negotiate a price with Togas, and give something back to Vox, to keep them happy. Or at least, we pay them in gold for connecting us to the world...

DeepO

DeepO · February 15, 2003, 14:47

Just received another one from Togas, in which he again empathsizes(sp?) that the deal is negotiable. Further, he is convinced that others are after the same thing, as the prices he asks are laughable... if we would be able to get mysticism for 25 gold (which will be possible with a poker face and diplomatic word wizardy), there is really no point in getting it ourselves. But of course, if we get it from Vox, we don't need to buy anything...

DeepO

nbarclay · February 15, 2003, 14:57

I wouldn't be shocked if Vox gets contact with ND as part of the package deal they're currently negotiating with GoW. In any case, GoW was earlier offering Vox contact with ND for 20 gold, so RP's price is way out of range.

nbarclay · February 15, 2003, 15:05

My inclination is to tell them that we welcome contact but do not view this as a particularly good time to be paying for it. As they have seen, we have nothing to offer on the world market at present, and paying gold for contact just so we could then perhaps pay more gold for something else would cause too much damage to our research capacity.

Nathan