It seemed like a good idea at first....

[The Andy-Man]

When Civ3 was first released, and the feature that you cannot rush by wonders, i though 'hey, good idea!'. Then it was annouynced Great Leaders could 'Well, OK' i thought to myself.


but after playing it, i realise that it sux. You only get a GL if you fight wars, i dont want to. There is no way to fight AI production bonuses, and with AI tech trading, u never get the tech first and thus never get the wonder. And having Great leaders Able to rush build only benefits warmongeres.

And another thing, with this silly corruption, you need the FP, you need it as far away from the Palace as poss if you are on a peninsular, to get the best benefit. Basically, you need it in a city that produces 1sheild per turn. that 200 turns, HALF THE GAME!! Unless, and here is the cunning bit, you have a great leader!!!

In Civ2, rush buying was done to beat the AI to a wonder, and to get the benefits quicker, this is some how exploiting the AI. But, dont you think credit should be given to the fact a player has built such a fine infastructure, he can AFFORD to buy it? Letting people rush buy would be a great insentive to make money, and not have a breaking even buget (0 gold per turn) just to maximise science output.

[Arrian]

Well, the fact that leaders favor warmongers has been discussed, and I agree with you there. Leaders rushbuilding wonders in 1 turn makes them incredibly powerful. I have, however, gotten used to it. Also, it's probably too late to implement a different system for Civ III. It would be nice to get a leader due to great culture (although this would be tough to do right... warmongers often end up with tons of culture, due to the large numbers of cities w/temples in them. That adds up. Maybe it could be based upon culture per city. If you have 10 cities, and 20000 total culture, that's 2000 per city). They did implement two ways to trigger a golden age (military or wonders), but only one to get leaders. *shrug*

-Arrian

[The Andy-Man]

well, you cant exactly build 4 wonders in a Golden age can you?

need more then 20turns. And i just generally think leaders are stupid.

[Technoron]

In Civ2, rush buying was done to beat the AI to a wonder, and to get the benefits quicker, this is some how exploiting the AI. But, dont you think credit should be given to the fact a player has built such a fine infastructure, he can AFFORD to buy it? Letting people rush buy would be a great insentive to make money, and not have a breaking even buget (0 gold per turn) just to maximise science output.

mmmm. I'll buy into that. But only if the AI had enough understanding to rush a wonder too. Oh, if I could count the times I've robbed the AI with last-turn rushes.

I never understood why I could prevent the AI from building something on its turn just by artificially filling my production box on my turn. After all, I hadn't actually BUILT it yet.

*shrug*

[The Andy-Man]

i can understand how you could exploit caravans, and tis good they're gone.

but the AI should also be able to rush buy. but i dare say that firaxis wont put it in cos they will say the AI will get exploited or sumthing, so it becomes another option humans cant use as a way of counter acting the fact the game is war-biased and the fact the AI gets production bonuses later on (which is silly, i can see why you should give the AI bonuses to make it harder, but production is very important, and the AI should have even do's with the human on this one - surly it isnt that hard to tell the AI which sqaures in the city radius are good to boost production ie. build a mine on the mountaun - its already there for the human govounour).

[Blaupanzer]

Andy Man, we've already had this discussion once. The whole concept of racing to build Wonders is artificial as hell, so learn these rules and play the game. If you don't like getting beat, don't race. If you have a great leader, use him to get whatever's available. Don't try to use reason to "fix" a silly, unreasonable, and arbitrary set of rules.

Ditto about prior discussion related to the FP. Live with it; work your way around it; or ignore it. But sugesting it takes too long to build something with no corresponding RL fact, is utter drivel. Since no such thing ever existed on earth (the "real" FP is in Beijing, you'll note), how long it should take to build is up to the game designers. In other words, go out and kick butt to get a GL, take your 200 turns, or don't build it. But don't whine about it, we're all subject to the same rules.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by The Andy-Man

(which is silly, i can see why you should give the AI bonuses to make it harder, but production is very important, and the AI should have even do's with the human on this one - surly it isnt that hard to tell the AI which sqaures in the city radius are good to boost production ie. build a mine on the mountaun - its already there for the human govounour).

Well, I think the default terrain improvement (like if you just hit shift+A and let your workers do their own thing) is bad. All they do is irrigate half the squares and mine the other half (plains/grassland, clearly they mine mts and hills). The problem here is that your cities will hit pop 12 and stop for a long time (until sanitation). I do a lot more mining than the AI, such that all my cities hit 12 with either zero or 1 surplus food. Maximum production. I then have to tweak things once railroads are build (they increase food output on irrigated squares) and then again once I start building hospitals (once to irrigate some squares and get the city to grow, and then one last time to change back to mines so it stops growing around size 17-18).

Basically, I maximize production in a way the AI is not programmed to. That's part of the reason I beat it to Wonders most of the time. So it does need some help. The fact is that the Civ III AI, despite improvements, is still pretty dumb. That's not a knock on Soren - an AI for a game as complex as Civ that lives up to the "I" is a long, long way off.

-Arrian

-Arrian

[The Andy-Man]

but, i dont really wanna spend all day doing worker things. i just irrigate the grass, mine the mountains......

and Bluepanzer, i wasnt whining, just moaning a little cos i aint got anything to do at the moment. and this forum is here to put our points of view over to try and get a better game (not just live with it), i am sorry if you wanted a forum where everything is all peachy, but it tends to happen that then nothing gets improved.

[Salvor]

Originally posted by The Andy-Man
but, i dont really wanna spend all day doing worker things. i just irrigate the grass, mine the mountains......

and Bluepanzer, i wasnt whining,

Sure sounds like a whine to me.

Sorry you couldn't find a game where everything is peachy. Maybe chieftan level is just a little to tough for you. It'd probably be too much of a hassle to go into the editor and change the build costs of all the wonders to 1.

[The Andy-Man]

i never new it wasn't alowed for people to have opinions here.

[Captain]

Is it possible to change all the large wonders into small wonders?

I've never understood why if one country builds something, another can't duplicate it? I admit that being the first to do so should have a big bonus (like a culture bump of 200 points or something), but why not being allowed to build it at all?

If they were all small wonders, then we wouldn't have to worry about humans exploiting AI stupidity. The AI wouldn't waste shields a la civ 2 style, and peaceful builders wouldn't be crippled a la civ 3 style. It doesn't remove any "strategic depth" while it does allow the AI to play better.

one more thing, since all wonders are now possible, the overall cultural victory isn't any easier since IIRC you have to have 2x the culture of your nearest rival to win.
The only question now is, can the AI handle it?

---
if you want to prevent everyone from building all the wonders, just have the benefits split amongst the number of identical wonders in the world. It would hurt the existing civ's who built it already, but once there's three already built and receiving 1/3 bonus, would you really want to build another for 1/4 of the benefits? (see, the decrease to existing civs benefits slows down .5, .33, .25, .167, .14, .125 whereas the incentive for building them decreases rapidly.) First civ to build it would still have the one-time bonus for being the first.

[nato]

And another thing, with this silly corruption, you need the FP, you need it as far away from the Palace as poss if you are on a peninsular, to get the best benefit. Basically, you need it in a city that produces 1sheild per turn. that 200 turns, HALF THE GAME!! Unless, and here is the cunning bit, you have a great leader!!!

That is the exact reason I like my idea to reduce FP cost to around 30 shields.

It can only be built once, so it can't be abused like the Palace. It lets builders set up their empire without forcing them to go to war for a leader.

I know it is radical, and seems like it is making the game too easy, but I think it is actually good for the game.

[Willem]

Originally posted by The Andy-Man

but after playing it, i realise that it sux. You only get a GL if you fight wars, i dont want to. There is no way to fight AI production bonuses, and with AI tech trading, u never get the tech first and thus never get the wonder. And having Great leaders Able to rush build only benefits warmongeres.

If it really bothers you that much, then just create some colorless units and go around whacking interlopers that wander near your territory. You can get Leaders doing that without having a full scale war, just a few border skirmishes here and there.

[The Andy-Man]

but willem, for some reason that would feel like cheating, i may aswell have every unit unmarked, and just play like that.....

[Willem]

Originally posted by The Andy-Man
but willem, for some reason that would feel like cheating, i may aswell have every unit unmarked, and just play like that.....

If you do it right, it actually makes the game more interesting. It at least gives me something to do with my troops when peace breaks out. The key is to find a good balance for those units in the game. You want them to be less damaging and more expensive than your regular forces so they don't become all powerful. And there is a price to pay diplomatically as well. The minute you use them against a civ, they become hostile.

I've been playing with some in my game for quite awhile now, and I can't say they've given me that much of an advantage over the AI. I can wipe out the odd border town, and capture stray workers, but for the most part they get their ass wiped whenever they come across a decent unit, who always attack immediately. This is especially true when I'm up against the Samurai. They can wipe out a stack of them in no time, and it usually takes three of my "rebels" to take out one of them.

[Bane Star]

I'm allways on the lookout for Ideas for My Modding, thankyou to everyone heres, cause it sparked this Idea: The following Ideas:

Wonders: Ok True making the wonder first should Give the bonuses, but also why cant another race make a duplicate for similar benefits.... Well heres the easy, I'm making a 'smaller' wonder for each of the Major wonders that gain the same benefit, but cost slightly more, or at the same cost but a slight reduction in its bonus (to allow the first one to be authentic/special for the player who built it)

FP: the problem I found (and many others have had thier winge) is the corruption based on distance... [COLOR=dark red]Well I'll be adding a series of FP's each based on a reduction of corruption, things like major temples, centres of religeon, FBI, TV, Internet (since allot of corruption and waste (for distance reasons) is based on the transfer of information from one city to the next on changing laws, rules and who's who.[/COLOR]

Leaders: A culture based leader, theres is a check box for the small wonder that gives a leader, So by 'adding' a few cultural small wonders that would enable/give a leader, based on the person themselves... I.E. thomas edison maybe??

One small point I have to make (I'm sure you've heard it all before) Is that until the last 50 years for western society, Most of civilisations in Real Life have been war-based, war-mongering. So to try and build a culture that is totally peaceful and yet remain at the forefront Is unrealistic at best.
Even the Swiss have the Swiss Army Knife

[Chronus]

i can understand how you could exploit caravans, and tis good they're gone.

As much as I love Civ 3, I'll readily admit that I do miss the camels.

Creating a wonder using caravans built from several cities made wonder building an empire-wide project, not just a single city attempt. I'm aware of the camel stocking exploit, but the empire-wide effort seemed to make more sense, and it was fun.

Perhaps "wonder camels", camels that can only be built when a wonder is being built, could have been created.

Oh well . . . a bit late now to implement such an idea but I can still dream . . . can't I?

[Barchan]

Originally posted by Bane Star
Even the Swiss have the Swiss Army Knife

They've got a lot more than that! The Swiss are armed to the teeth and know how to fight! After all, it's the Swiss who have provided a security detail for the Pope for over 500 years now. It's not particularly well known, but Switzerland is dotted with thousands of hidden bunkers and weapons caches. All Swiss males perform military service and get training in how to use modern military weapons, which they usually keep in their homes. Switzerland also maintains a highly modern bicycle infantry component to increase mobility across rugged terrain. They haven't remained neutral for nothing; don't think that the Nazis wouldn't have loved to have all the Swiss gold for themselves in WWII. But invading Switzerland would be so insanely difficult that even Hitler himself thought it a crazy idea. Sure, it helps to not pick sides and try stay out of conflicts, but when armed thugs demand your wallet, if you're not well armed you've got two choices; hand it over with a smile or let them puck it from your cold, dead fingers. Same for CivIII as IRL: if you don't have military strength, you'll get taken advantage of time and again.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Bane Star

Wonders: Ok True making the wonder first should Give the bonuses, but also why cant another race make a duplicate for similar benefits.... Well heres the easy, I'm making a 'smaller' wonder for each of the Major wonders that gain the same benefit, but cost slightly more, or at the same cost but a slight reduction in its bonus (to allow the first one to be authentic/special for the player who built it

A couple of things about your ideas:

First off, I may be misunderstanding you here, but you can't have a Small Wonder that has the same effects that a Great Wonder has. The two areas can't be combined, it's one or the other.

FP: the problem I found (and many others have had thier winge) is the corruption based on distance... Well I'll be adding a series of FP's each based on a reduction of corruption, things like major temples, centres of religeon, FBI, TV, Internet (since allot of corruption and waste (for distance reasons) is based on the transfer of information from one city to the next on changing laws, rules and who's who.

You're definitely heading into overkill here. I now have 5 versions of the FP in my game, and I find that's more than I need to maintain a rather large empire.

Leaders: A culture based leader, theres is a check box for the small wonder that gives a leader, So by 'adding' a few cultural small wonders that would enable/give a leader, based on the person themselves... I.E. thomas edison maybe??

I think you misunderstand here. That check box doesn't mean the building gives you a Leader, it only improves your chances of getting one in battle.

[aahz_capone]

Coincidentaly the Swiss finaly decided to join the UN yesterday by referendum (Now if ONLY the UN wonder was more like in SMAC etc etc see many other threads).

But BACK to the point, I totally agree with the annoyingness of warmongers only getting leaders and a system or mod that could create leaders on basis of culture I'd love, as I actually DO like the idea of leaders existing in a game like civ (for armies and for production).

On the FP subject, coudln't the problem be fixed by just making all small wonders rushable? It would keep the Big wonders unique, and even though I find Captain's idea about all wonders being small as well thought out, I think it kills some of the game in that every civ should be as unique as possible. It also makes sence that small wonders are rushable: no one can pay enough to build the pyramids in one turn, but honestly how hard is it to build a military academy?

Also, I have a problem/revelation/conundrum about the placing of the FP, that maybe y'all could help me with (there's probably no answer though). I too put the forbidden palace as far as possible fro the capital, but in recent games I find that wwhen I build it it is a waste as I have such a young and thusly small civ. Only by the time I'm building infantry and cavalry and I turn from a mild mannered builder and culture buff into a raving warmongering megalomaniac do I find it useful to have a FP as my civ then spands continents. You see what I'm getting too? By then the FP is relatively close to the Palace and corruption stays strife in the far off places. I often end up using a leader to build it by around 1950 far off in the boonies, but recently leades have been few and far between (1.17f?). So my problem is this: do you have any other strategies to deal with the FP being in the wrong place at the wrong time? It's not like I can sell the old one and build it someplace new every 400 years... (idea?)

Oh, and I also miss the camals and other wonder helping units in old civ games and smac.

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Aahz_Capone,

Just a suggestion. First: be happy with your palace location:
if not you should consider 'jumping' your capital to a better strategic location (building settler when city's pop. is lower than three, setting food production on status quo will give you the choice of disabandoning your capital, the capital immediately relocates - no cost at all - to your best city in terms of 1) pop. and 2) improvements.) You can guide this process.

Second, euh ...

AJ

[SpencerH]

I have no problems with using GL for rushing wonders. Unfortunately, since I'm mostly a builder, I dont get many GL! How many times has the AI built a wonder 1 or 2 turns before you? If it happened once in a while it would be OK. But it happens way too often to be coincidence. If it happens 10 or 20 turns before you finish you can salvage something (or if you've kept a small wonder in your hip pocket).

I was so pissed-off after one such incident thatI reloaded 20 turns back and maximized production in the wonder-building city (at the expense of growth). With the change I should have built the wonder 3 turns before the AI, but I didnt. The AI built it 1 turn before me again . The AI changed its build time based upon mine!!

Another possibility that has occurred to me is that Wonder-building is like combat, virtually pre-determined so that the outcome cant be changed once building commences (except with a GL). Bring em on!!!!!

[aahz_capone]

Spencer, that is so true it's not even funny.

AJ, thanx for the advice, never thought of disbanding my capital and letting it move by itself. Building a new palace is ofcourse way too much work. However, I'm one of those really annoying people that put emotional and historical value on cities, and I don't like moving a capital because thats where "the uber-peeps" began. I also rename cities based on what they are (like if it's got the CIA I call it the Obsidian Order). I used to name places in SMAC like The Valley of Death and The Hills of Battle 2365. Putting this kind of realism in your game is ofcourse dangerous, as you tend not to take the most strategically sound moves (like replacing your palace) and tend to get vengful...


Oh... those Spartans... grrrr....

[The Andy-Man]

One small point I have to make (I'm sure you've heard it all before) Is that until the last 50 years for western society, Most of civilisations in Real Life have been war-based, war-mongering. So to try and build a culture that is totally peaceful and yet remain at the forefront Is unrealistic at best.

actually, europe was surprising ly peacful during the 19th century, very much for the same reason the world is now. It benefits people more not to be in a state of conflict....


as for military in civ3, well, i htink someones military shouldn't be calculatedon how many units they have, but their potential to have a large army built in record time - so production and wealth, which is what makes a military.

[Fitz]

So my problem is this: do you have any other strategies to deal with the FP being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

If you like the location of your current capitol, but want to get your FP building out of the way, build the Forbidden Palace in the same location as your palace (which probably has significant shields available). Later on you can move your palace around as much as you want (including right up to the borders of your empire to maximize flipping). I have found this most useful when I start at the top or bottom of the map, or if see a primary direction of expansion (as opposed to equally all directions) early on.

It does mean some loss of shields overall (as you need to build the FP and Palace eventually), but it can can be a significant advantage if you plan to relocate rather later on when even border cities have decent shield output.

Question: Does putting your palace and FP in the same location still lead to a decrease in corruption in the nearby cities?

[Spatzimaus]

The problem with the Forbidden Palace, I think, is that it's just too important. You only get one, and if placed far from your capital, effectively doubles the industrial, economic, and scientific abilities of your empire.

But, as your empire expands and you switch to less corrupt governments, the distance starts becoming too small. Under Despotism the distance might have been enough to give total corruption, but under Democracy that distance might only be 50%. This penalizes large empires, which is fine, but a small "builder" empire should be able to use buildings like the FP to practically guarantee full production in the entire empire.

There are just too few corruption-reducing buildings/wonders, just like there are too few buildings that raise/lower pollution. It becomes an all-or-nothing thing. They changed the Police Station to reduce corruption, and that helped, but it doesn't change the basic problem. How many times have you captured an enemy capital (or the rare city that can make the Iron Works), but it's too far from your capital to ever be productive?

Not that it's a complete solution, but like some other people here I've added some FP-type Small Wonders, one for each era. I just picked random things from history, use whatever you want, but it helps if the later ones have some sort of building prerequisite (trust me).
FP: cost 300, at Philosophy, Industrious
Taj Mahal: cost 400, at Theology, Religious, requires a Cathedral
Statue of Liberty: cost 500, at Industrialization, Expansionist, requires a Harbor
Arc d'Triumph: cost 600, at Motorized Transportation, Militaristic, requires two victorious armies.

I wouldn't go much more than this. Now, the exact placing of the FP isn't as important, because as time goes on you'll have more options. They're still really expensive, so it still benefits the attacking players with their Leaders, but it's actually cheap enough that the later ones can be built normally. If you want to favor nonaggressive people, cut the prices down.

[Chronus]

Basically, you need it in a city that produces 1sheild per turn. that 200 turns, HALF THE GAME!! Unless, and here is the cunning bit, you have a great leader!!!

Well, not exactly.

Your city will grow which will produce more shields. The nature of corruption on the far flung cities limits this to one shield. To combat this, build a courthouse by rush buying or rush popping. Your city should then have extra shields which will lower the # of turns to 100 or even less. Concentrate on building up the city's population to generate more shields with irrigation and such. Yes, it does take more effort but that's part of the challenge and fun (my opinion, obviously ). There's really no reason why you should have to wait 200 turns to build the FP wonder unless it's that far down your priority list.

p.s. - sorry if someone has already posted this concept - I haven't had time to read all the posts.

[The Thinker]

Originally posted by Chronus


Well, not exactly.

Your city will grow which will produce more shields. The nature of corruption on the far flung cities limits this to one shield. To combat this, build a courthouse by rush buying or rush popping.

Hmm, yes I could buy a temple, a cathedral, a coliseum, an aquaduct, a hospital, a factory, a courthouse and a Police station, irrigate, railroad then ship in workers to build up the size of the city, I might get two shields.

[DrFell]

I fight wars nearly constantly until I carve out a nice big empire for myself AND get myself a forbidden palace GL (and hopefully a couple more leaders). It seems silly having to start a war over a GL but it's neccessary, it's not worth waiting for the palace to be completed, especially on deity level where the game is over pretty quickly. 200 shields with no way of rushing is just too much. I think that at the least they should bring back BUYING wonders with cash, because it's a shame I have to play this 100% aggressive way until the game gives me what I want.

[DrFell]

Originally posted by Chronus
Your city will grow which will produce more shields. The nature of corruption on the far flung cities limits this to one shield. To combat this, build a courthouse by rush buying or rush popping. Your city should then have extra shields which will lower the # of turns to 100 or even less. Concentrate on building up the city's population to generate more shields with irrigation and such. Yes, it does take more effort but that's part of the challenge and fun (my opinion, obviously ). There's really no reason why you should have to wait 200 turns to build the FP wonder unless it's that far down your priority list.

You'll be lucky to get 2 shields. It's not worth the cost of the mprovements you put into it. Let alone the maintenance costs. If you want enough productive cities in a reasonable time, you need the forbidden palace from a GL. For the unlucky cities too far from either, make them into taxman cities, at least that might make them worth something.

You know it's funny, corruption was almost as bad in civ2 in primitive governments as it is in civ3. But waste was much less damaging. You could have useful cities halfway across the world. They have of course removed that 'exploit' in civ3. You could also generally build a palace in a reasonable time if you lost your first, because when building a palace waste went down to 0 in the city. They should bring that back I believe for palaces and forbidden palaces.