MOD: Civ3 Fascist Patch

[ajbera]

Wolf - the mod sounds great! I can't wait to try it.

Have you (or any others using it) noticed the AI using it? I know you can program government preferences via the editor, but have you seen it in action?

[gentleben]

no one mentioned Wolf's tribute to Nazism website...this freak has got everything on there but burning jews...
I'm taking the patch off since it adds a swastica(sp?) to the game. I'd recomend to all civers not in favor of racial purging to boycot this persons works until such time as he gets a clue and loses the propaganda site. Some of us who lost large chunks of their family to these madmen find such tributes sligtly insensitive.

[Roland Ehnström]

Soapyfrog wrote:
"Besides if I play a fascist government, I don't want to be associated with a pack of thugs like the Nazi party. They were for the most part:
a) idiots
b) hypocrits
c) sadists"

Like the Fascists weren't...

Peace!
-- Roland

EDIT: What the??? I post a message replying to a post by Soapyfrog, and my post is placed BEFORE his!

[Soapyfrog]

Fascism originated with the Italians, and it fact National Socialism (Nazism) was not a particularly "pure" form of fascism.

In any case, it would be far more appropriate to have the Italian "fascisti" symbol, which is comprised of three Fasces (rods and axes) inverted in a circle like so:



In any case it would be:

a) more accurate
b) less offensive
c) cooler looking IMHO

Besides if I play a fascist government, I don't want to be associated with a pack of thugs like the Nazi party. They were for the most part:

a) idiots
b) hypocrits
c) sadists

And Hitler was of course a powermongering lunatic far more lucky than skilled or intelligent. He lost the war single-handedly in spite of the strenuous efforts of the Wehrmacht. What an idiot.

[Soapyfrog]

Hmmm that image didn't come out.

Well follow this link and you'll see it:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...aly/fasces.gif

[Wolfshanze]

Originally posted by David Murray
Wolfshanze -- how did you create the fascist govt? I'm interested to know because when I get my copy of Civ3 (Friday), I want to create some more govt. types--theocracy, military dictatorship, etc. Or is is done simply through the editor...?

It's simply done through the editor... though the actual Swastika graphics I had to do myself, and substitute another graphic to fit it in (hopefully adding icons instead of replacing them will be possible in the future).

I also had to edit the Civilopedia manually to add info on Fascism and provide links for it in the Civilopedia... all that work was done outside the editor.

[Wolfshanze]

Originally posted by gentleben
no one mentioned Wolf's tribute to Nazism website...this freak has got everything on there but burning jews...
I'm taking the patch off since it adds a swastica(sp?) to the game. I'd recomend to all civers not in favor of racial purging to boycot this persons works until such time as he gets a clue and loses the propaganda site. Some of us who lost large chunks of their family to these madmen find such tributes sligtly insensitive.

I assume you can read, so why did you go past the warning screens if all you want to do is sling mud, attack people, tell everyone else what is best for them, censor others, and otherwise act like a fascist yourself?

For the record, the Hammer and Sickle emblem of Communism is responsible for roughly 30 million dead this century in and around the time of WWII itself... yet, for some reason the Hammer and Sickle is okay to portray and doesn't make you feel all warm inside like the Swastika does... I guess because it was mostly commies that died from Communism, that makes it okay?

On the website there are images of Hitler and Swastikas... nothing else... you were also warned before going there to avoid any tantrums, so what's with your fascist attitudes on what people can and can't do to meet YOUR standards?

[Wolfshanze]

Originally posted by Soapyfrog
Fascism originated with the Italians, and it fact National Socialism (Nazism) was not a particularly "pure" form of fascism.

In any case, it would be far more appropriate to have the Italian "fascisti" symbol, which is comprised of three Fasces (rods and axes) inverted in a circle like so:



In any case it would be:

a) more accurate
b) less offensive
c) cooler looking IMHO

Besides if I play a fascist government, I don't want to be associated with a pack of thugs like the Nazi party. They were for the most part:

a) idiots
b) hypocrits
c) sadists



And Hitler was of course a powermongering lunatic far more lucky than skilled or intelligent. He lost the war single-handedly in spite of the strenuous efforts of the Wehrmacht. What an idiot.

The Nazis were indeed idiots, but the reason why I chose a Swastika instead of the fasces is simple...

When you think of Fascism in the 20th century, chances are the first thing that comes to mind is Nazi Germany and it's many swastikas (which by the way are shown in pretty much every movie and documentary on TV, so why is it wrong in a game, when it's just fine everywhere else), not Italy and some wheat symbol.

For the record, the Swastika predates the Nazis by several hundred years (and can be currently found in many European cathedrals).

I chose to model Nazi Germany in the patch simply because it's far more recognized and because it IS controversial... no dancing around the topic... you can't IGNORE history.

I'm sure if the nazis were around today, they'd love "Political Correctness", because it's just a fancy word for censorship and banning thoughts you don't agree with, which oddly enough is what the Fascists practiced a lot of.

[monkspider]

Good points, I agree wolfshanze, keep the swasticka...and I speak this as a leftist.
I display a hammer and sickle on a Soviet hockey jersey of mine, and poltical correctness be damned, I still wear it!

[JamesJKirk]

Wolf,

I definitely look forward to using your patch once I get Civ3, once I found the Civ2 version, I never played w/o it...:self plug time:that is until I modded it into the Communist patch, which replaced old Communism with a military dictatorship, and Fundie with a sort of Maoist/Castroist sort of populist Communism

Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate, and it's amazing how many different views of fascism there are out there..I'm not even going to get into my take

Monk-

You can always add another generation of governments to the end game if you want to satisfy the lefty utopian in you

You could have a true Socialist Democracy, which would probably fit between a sort of ultra-laissez-faire Corporate (or Libertarian) Republic and a Technocratic regime a la Brave New World-

I probably could think of stats for each, but won't bother, although I'm sure Technocracy would have no corruption, although probably no science to speak of and not much of a military either, or maybe it would.

[Wolfshanze]

Originally posted by monkspider
Good points, I agree wolfshanze, keep the swasticka...and I speak this as a leftist.
I display a hammer and sickle on a Soviet hockey jersey of mine, and poltical correctness be damned, I still wear it!

Thanks monkspider. Glad to see some people still have enough backbone to have free thought.

I always value people based on what's in their heart and how they act, not what they wear or how they appear.

So monkspider, what do you think of my latest updates in v1.2 of the Fascist Patch?

Since v1.0, I've weakened Fascism and (in my view) properly balanced the naval units... I love the balance of units in the Age of Sail (from Caravels to Galleons, Frigates and Privateers)... I've played with the new values and I really love it!

(Pat myself on the back)

Oh, and thanks James... another vote of confidence... was beginning the think the whole world went "politically correct" on old Wolfy!

Glad to see there's still plenty of fans from my work on the Civ2 patch.

The key with patching governments is to keep them balanced, AND to keep them differant from one another... just how many late-game military/peaceful/combo governments can one get and keep them unique enough? I figure one late game government for each "style" of play: militant, peaceful, wishy-washy are represented by me as Communism, Democracy and Fascism. Not sure I could add a fourth late-game government AND have it distinct enough from the others even if I wanted to!!!

[gentleben]

sorry fella but I got no warning ...and a warning doesnt make it right..I could warn you that I'm gunna punch you in the face and I'm guessing that even though you didnt run away screaming like a little girl you'd still be pissed that I hit you...you are right..you have the right to make whatever website you want..but be ready to face up to the consequences...like people not using your file (which I whounld happily use sans going throug the nazi fanboi site..and that whole swastica thing...) Maybe you could be more respectful and just change it ??

-joe

[JamesJKirk]

Originally posted by gentleben
sorry fella but I got no warning ...and a warning doesnt make it right..I could warn you that I'm gunna punch you in the face and I'm guessing that even though you didnt run away screaming like a little girl you'd still be pissed that I hit you...you are right..you have the right to make whatever website you want..but be ready to face up to the consequences...like people not using your file (which I whounld happily use sans going throug the nazi fanboi site..and that whole swastica thing...) Maybe you could be more respectful and just change it ??

-joe

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, just like that old saying, if you ignore history it will go away, and if you forget it, it'll never repeat itself

Any sane person know's he's not a Nazi, there's a plain warning on the page, and he's right when he says that there're Nazis and Swastikas all over popular entertainment.
And also, I haven't heard you voice any concern about Communism being in the game, when Lenin and Stalin were responsible for the deaths of millions.
Wait, for that matter, despots haven't exactly been the nicest guys either! You'd better kick them out of the game!
And Monarchies? don't get me started, fighting bloody wars over religion and balance of power, how atrocious, we don't want to be exposed to that!
Oooh, and evil slaveholding, death-penalty having Republics and Democracies, did you know they didn't even let women vote until the last hundred years in nearly all cases! Bah! Trechery! I never want to see another repressive symbol like the Statue of Liberty in my LIFE!....


To quote Homer Simpson:
"Now THAT's sarcasm!"

[gentleben]

they never should of given women the right to vote...but thats beside the point

[ancient]

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
Thanks for the comments folks. The little chart Asher put up may be a tad bit misleading in one aspect... originally, I was going to (and did) add the Technology Advance of "Fascism" which in-turn gave the Fascist government form. However, after adding the new tech, it made the game unstable, so I had to take it back out and just have Fascism tacked-on to the already existing tech of espionage... so now, when you learn espionage, you gain Fascism. Hopefully I can correct this later when the mod tools improve... it's still very early in the life of Civ3. As for making certain civs like or dislike a government, I missed that... I'll have to go back in and check that out!

Hope you folks enjoy the patch as much as I enjoy making it available. Now you only have to choose which side you play as!

when i added the fascism tech and the fundamentalism tech to my patch (which is better than yours ) it made it become imposible to load older games, and the editor became unstable.. im think of making the change to the way your doing it..

even though the editor hasnt messed up in a time..

[dweez]

Originally posted by JamesJKirk
I never want to see another repressive symbol like the Statue of Liberty in my LIFE!....

You forgot to mention all those people who died building the Pyramids! I cannot believe they put this symbol of opression in the game!

Seriously, I'm against fascism, and I'm also against burning books, censoring history and restricting freedom of speach.
So thanks for the patch and don't listen to people who constantly search the web trying to find something to get upset about.

[monkspider]

1.2 is looking great Wolfy, I *REALLY* like the changes you have made to the naval units, they are very much needed.
Keep up the good work!

[Soapyfrog]

Gentleben - you're clearly an imbecile. Why are you posting?

Wolfschanze - I would agree that the swastika and the Nazis are more "familiar" references to fascism... but that's precisely why I would shy away from it. After all we are trying to examine alternate possibilities with this game.

I am well aware of the origins of the swastika, and it is a pity that it was changed into an internationally recognized "symbol of hate" and adopted by so many neo-nazi rascist and white-supremecist movements, much like the COnfederaste flag is slowly becoming.

Nevertheless, since the Nazis don't really adequately represent Fascism in it's ideal form, I think the Italian symbol would be more appropriate, especially considering it better represents the name of that form of government.

Your modelling of Fascism in the game is really quite good though. I feel that there should be a multiplicity of choice for late game governments (including fundamentalism, which I will always suspect was removed for political reasons).

[Barnacle Bill]

The problem with using the Italian symbols is that Fascist Italy's wartime performance was so bad as to make them a joke. The Nazis on the other hand make such good villians that I'm sure if they had never existed Hollywood would have made them up.

I also agree that modern society in general tends to hold up the Nazis for their 10 million innocent dead while given Stalin a pass on his 20 million and Mao a pass on his 100 million.

I liked the Fascist patch in Civ2 myself.

One take on Fascism you should consider is that it is really modernized absolute monarchy, and its economic system is really modernized merchantilism (the economic system of choice by absolute monarchs). I could write an essay explaining that, but I didn't invent the idea (I read it someplace, and it stuck because it made sense). So, perhaps an alternative approach to creating Fascism as a viable "3rd way" government in lategame Civ3 is to start with the stats of Monarchy and tweek it into Fascism. Then again, maybe you end up in the same place, but it is another way to think about it.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
the Fascist Patch has now been updated to v1.1 (see first post on thread to update, or visit the official website).

Fascism's free military units have been slightly lowered, while Communism's has been slightly raised to seperate the differances between the two.

It´s not clear to me why Communist and Fascist governments should differ with regard to unit support. If you want to weaken Fascism, rather change its assimilation chance from the current 4% to 1% to reflect the 'racial superiority' delusions that were frequently associated with this kind of government. (In Civ3 gameplay terms, Fascism would be able to run a large military, but after the first 'blitz' would have to quell the ever-lasting resistance of foreign citizens.) I´d also suggest that Fascism should be immune to 'propaganda' instead of 'steal technology'.

BTW, the latest version of your patch (1.2) does include resistance and propaganda modifiers of Fascism vs. the other governments, but not vice versa. This needs to be fixed.

Originally posted by Soapyfrog
Nevertheless, since the Nazis don't really adequately represent Fascism in it's ideal form, I think the Italian symbol would be more appropriate, especially considering it better represents the name of that form of government.

IMO, using the swastika as an in-game graphic is simply in bad taste. (The Call To Power series included a Fascist government, but got by without nazi symbols.) I will install the Fascist patch, but use Civ3´s 'Nationalism' icon to symbolize the Fascist government. (And if that exposes me as a politically correct wimp, then be it so.)

[dannyevilcat]

Alright. Enough of this Use the swastika vs. don't use the swastika thing!

At first, I figured I'd use the Fasces instead, since other civ's would probably use Fascism at one time or another, and the swastika is entirely a German city. However, I thought about it, and the fasces is entirely an Italian symbol. So I gave it some more thought, and after finishing my work, decided I liked the swastika better afterall.

But... I also want people to use this or their own Fascist government in the game, so heck, I'll let you use it if you want. It ain't perfect, since I originally drew it smaller and had to enlarge it.

Anyway, Wolfschanze, I'm keepin' yours.

[EarnhardtFan]

Where Did you get a copy of the Host Wessel March for your website, I've been looking for that song.

[Wolfshanze]

You can obtain an assortment of Nazi memorabilia and other WWII stuff at http://www.hammerwar.com

That includes music CD's of the Third Reich. (CD 25 has the Horst Wessel Leid).

Of course some people might get offended that Hammer's sight exists too... but you can't blame me for that one!

I'll include the Fasces as an option for thin skinned people in a future update to the Fascist Patch.

My only problem with keeping the patch up-to-date is that my country calls... just got the word today to pack my bags for Saudi Arabia... this sucks... I'll be overseas for the holidays... oh well, the things I do for my country!!!

[facistdictator]

OK This goes out to all you peace loving wimps who are giving my homeboy wolfshanze a hard time. Ive been to his site and it does have the warnings about the nazi signs and things. Wolfshanze is not a nazi but im not afraid to tell you i have 2 real nazi banners hanging over my wall in here in my computer room and a skull and crossbones flag. Why you ask well ill tell you, im absolutley fascinated not only with Hitler but all tyrants, dictators, and kings of history who by their determination had a vision in their head and made it materialize into reality. No im not some sick axe murderer or uneducated skinhead, i just can relate more to a conquerer than a flower peace loving wimp. I think fascism would be a excellent form of goverment for America today but the people would never have it I know that. Im not a racist i have friends of all colors and creeds who even disagree with me but that dont stop them from being my friend. I do believe and have heard on many documenteries from well known historians who did say that if Hitler would have never killed any jews and still did every thing else he would have went down in history as one of the greatest statesman ever. Historians have even said he could have shipped all the jews out of his country with nothing on their backs but a shirt and stolen everything else of theirs and still go down in history as a great statesman. But we all know what happened so yes what he done was extremely evil and wrong i totally agree but I still beleive in fascism as a good goverment. Every goverment has bad parts about it, not just fascism. Anyway I just wish everytime someone gets there feelings hurt in this country that i could get a penny and I would be a billionare. I heard a special on the news the other day about they were talking about taking Porky Pig out of cartoons because it makes fun of people that studder, i mean come on get a clue. I mean there is tons of things that offend me but im not going to start preaching sermons to everybody about it, as long as it dont affect me directly I dont give a sh@* what anybody does. Anyway sorry this is so long. Wolfshanze thanx again man I love it really keep up the good work.

[facistdictator]

Hey if anybody is looking for some nazi flags or other things go to www.micetrap.net BEFORE GOING IM WARNING ALL OF YOU YES THIS IS A SKINHEAD SITE AND NO IM NOT AFFILIATED WITH IT I JUST BUY THE DIFFERENT FLAGS FOR COLLECTION PURPOSES. THEIR THE BEST PRICES AROUND AND SHIP VERY FAST.

[Conquesticus]

Hey Wolfshanze! I was using Republic and got drug into a war so I switched to your good ole Fascism. But, I noticed that even when I mobilized for war, things took a bit longer to build than under Republic. Is the production for F worse than R? I did horde gold like a madman, but it was taking a long time to build stuff. Also, where in the civlopedia (or online somewhere) is there a resource that is useful for comparing governments. I liked CTP's gov comparison tool, Civ 3 seems to be missing a lot of info!

Also, for you swastika haters, don't ***** on Wolfshanze. Believe it or no, the peace-loving isolationist Finns had baby-blue swastikas on their WW2 aircraft. It's a Christian cross after all. When Hitler saw that on those Finnish Fokkers, he went nuts, he thought it was the coolest thing he ever saw. Circumstance and a madman forever ruined the otherwise, cool-looking, swastika. And no the Finns weren't Nazis either, they contributed more troops to Israel in their war against the pro-Nazi Arabs than any other democracy. (Just a sidenote, hehe). It was either a swastika or the iron cross. Either way someone would ***** at Wolfie.

[facistdictator]

Hey wolfshanze do you eventually plan on making other goverments as well or not. Just curious.

[Wolfshanze]

Well, Fascism is actually based on the Republic (loosely), and I modeled it to be sort of a more "modern republic"... as stated before, perhaps a mercantile type government.

Any statistic you look at with Fascism is either equal to, or better than Republic. There is not a single instance where Republic is better than Fascism (well, perhaps with conquered peoples, but as far as production/science and anything else, Fascism is equal or better).

Worker rate under Fascism is the same as Republic, corruption is the same as Republic, the only differances is that Fascism has forced labor instead of "buying off" production, and of course, Fascism has no war weariness and gets free support for a decent amount of units.

As for more government types in the future, it's not really on the schedule for the Fascist Patch mostly for two reasons...
#1: I can't really think of another major government type that I could effectively model that wouldn't be "redundant" to another pre-existing government type Civ3 rule-wise
#2: mostly, my next changes would be to ensure all units are properly balanced as I already fixed naval units, I'd like to take a closer look at aircraft, but won't touch them until I've fully looked into it, like I did with naval units... they are at least now better balanced than the obviously screwy naval units (think Privateer). I'd also like to add a new tech or two (mostly the tech advance of "Fascism").
#3: and probably most importantly... I've run out of time to work on the Fascist Patch, or the Pacific General Armory, or any other game for that matter. My job has caught up with me... old Wolfy is heading to the Middle East for a bit... I'll be out of pocket for a while on gaming! Leaving very soon, so when my posts cease to exist, you'll know what happened to me!

[Riso]

Origins of the Swastika, for everyone not in the know.

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~sidneys/Swastika.htm

[dannyevilcat]

Since I wasn't thrilled about the crappy fasces icons I posted earlier, I totally re-did them.

So here is the new and GREATLY improved fasces icons. (they really are much, much better. Download!