Reply With QuoteWait since when have ducks been endangered? I mean, christ, just throw bread in a pond and wait an hour.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-s...wales-19311254Plans for a 30bn barrage across the Severn estuary have been given a boost after Prime Minister David Cameron instructed officials to look into them.
It follows a meeting with Peter Hain, who left his post as shadow Welsh secretary to back the project.
Supporters say the barrage, from the Vale of Glamorgan to Somerset, would provide 5% of the UK's electricity and create thousands of jobs.
But environmentalists object, and say it would harm local wildlife.
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It's encouraging that Number 10 are taking the barrage much more seriously than has been the case over the last few years
Peter Hain MP
Labour, Neath
It is understood much of the funding for the scheme would come from Kuwait and Qatar.
"We had a very good meeting - the prime minister promised to look into it," Mr Hain told BBC Wales.
"It was a more productive meeting than might have been expected. It's encouraging that Number 10 are taking the barrage much more seriously than has been the case over the last few years.
"Government support is an absolute pre-requisite for getting the whole project underway.
"Not a penny of taxpayers' money would be needed for this 30bn investment, which would be transformative for Wales.
"It would create 20,000 jobs in construction and another 30,000 in activity around the barrage."
The UK government previously rejected plans following a two-year feasibility study found the cost could be up to 34bn, double the initial estimate.
Privately financed
It did not, however, rule out private schemes.
Last year, the Corlan Hafren consortium submitted a business plan to the Department of Energy and Climate Change outlining a new proposal.
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Putting all our eggs into one risky project would block other possibilities, and the growth in jobs and technology these could produce
Friends of the Earth
Mr Hain said this project would not call on public funds but would be entirely privately financed.
It wants to generate electricity on both ebb and flow tides and includes an extra 800 turbines.
The change may have some environmental benefits in reducing flood risk and improving coastal drainage upstream, according to the consortium.
But the barrage will still reduce the tidal range, which is the second highest in the world, from 14m (about 46ft) at spring tide to 7m (about 23ft).
The barrage could also have a road and railway running along the top.
A Downing Street spokesman said: "The prime minister met Peter Hain and Corlan Hafren last month to discuss the Severn barrage proposal.
Divided opinion
"The government is keen to promote a diverse range of energy supply and will consider the proposals carefully."
However, the project has divided opinion.
In May, a spokesperson for the RSPB said it "wishes to see Severn tidal energy harnessed but not at the expense of important and protected wildlife".
"We will support technologies or alternative schemes that could deliver this, but the conventional barrage would be an environmental disaster and be in breach of the EU habitats directive."
A spokesperson for Friends of the Earth has also said that harnessing tidal energy was "vitally important," but called this project "the wrong solution".
Friends of the Earth said tidal energy can be captured "by other technologies with considerably less damaging consequences".
"Putting all our eggs into one risky project would block other possibilities, and the growth in jobs and technology these could produce."
The plans should never have been dropped in the first place. And **** the ducks and wading seabirds- this is what we need.
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
Wait since when have ducks been endangered? I mean, christ, just throw bread in a pond and wait an hour.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
No, it's far more complex than all that...Originally Posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny
People need to seriously see how much of Corlen Hafren's proposal is actually feasible...
Still, OK then if we get to **** Bristol up the arse and it's actually really good for Wales at the expense of the English side of the estuary...
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
Make us see, in that case. Otherwise those words are just a waste of time.No, it's far more complex than all that...
People need to seriously see how much of Corlen Hafren's proposal is actually feasible...
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
Barrage = the very real risk of the BPA losing its deep sea container port!
Corlan Hafren proposes building the equivalent in Port Talbot...
Be careful what you wish for, Bugs...
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
Oh, PS:
WALES! WALES! WALES!
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
Ever stopped to consider why the company 'Corlan Hafren' chose a Welsh name...?
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
Barrage = the very real risk of the BPA losing its deep sea container port!
Corlan Hafren proposes building the equivalent in Port Talbot...
Be careful what you wish for, Bugs...
Is that all? I'll take the barrage, thanks.
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
It's likely to be a huge white elephant.
It will create huge environmental problems.
There are probably better ways to harness the tidal power in the estuary.
It will be hugely expensive!
It will likely take at least a decade to become operational from when they actually decide to start building it!
One decent sized nuclear power station (e.g. the Hinkley proposals) does the same as the barrage.
It will likely scupper the deep sea container port on England's side.
Seriously, the reasons for not knee-jerking into what is possibly a very dumb idea, are extremely persuasive!
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
I'll still take both the barrage and the extra nuclear power station at Hinkley Point, thanks. A decade sounds quite quick- if it was a nuclear power station, the public inquiries and debates would take that long before a single brick was laid.
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
It is also proposed to last 120 years, nuclear plant is 30-40 years.
So you really need to compare it to the cost of commissioning and decommissioning 4 nuclear plants. And there is also the flood defence aspect which hasn't been mentioned?
Considering various barrages have been considered for about 130 years I don't think it could be thought of as knee jerking. Also - Port Talbot is already an industrial hell on earth. Perfect for a container port.
Knee jerk reaction to dismiss the idea out of hand is at least as bad as a knee jerk reaction to approve the scheme right?
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
We've got both kinds
It's strikingly reminiscent of when I lived in Cardiff 20 years back, and the proposed Cardiff Bay Barrage.
"IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE!! IT'LL TURN THE WHOLE AREA INTO A STINKING OPEN SEWER!! IT'LL DESTROY THE UNIQUE CHARACTER OF TIGER BAY!! IT'LL BE A WHITE ELEPHANT!!! THINK OF THE DUCKS AND WADING SEABIRDS!! IT'LL DESTROY THE FABRIC OF THE UNIVERSE AS WE KNOW IT!!!"
But they built it. And it was great, and turned the Bay into a lovely place whilst providing a big boost to the local economy. With fewer Shelducks, admittedly, but you can't win 'em all.
So if they do take the cheapest option which would close Bristol's docks to container ships, that could move about 500 jobs to Port Talbot- which (with the improved transport links provided by the Sever Barrage) would be about a 20 minute drive away. I know- it's the end of the world. Plus there would be some 20,000 local jobs in the construction, followed by longer-term employment from the ongoing operation of the barrage.
Plus roughly a million environmental arguments in favour of it, of course.
I'll definitely take the barrage, thanks.
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
Actually I'm 100% in favour of harnessing the huge tidal potential of the estuary. Also the barrage and its knock-on effects would be hugely beneficial for Cardiff and South Wales as a whole!
But the question still remains about harnessing the correct technology and limiting the negatives as much as possible, instead of blindly rushing forth and picking the first bright shiny thing that's put in front of you!
It's a bit like why we chose the inferior petrol engine over the diesel engine in the beginning of the 20th century, or the fact that Diesel was originally looking into getting them to run on vegetable oil instead of, well, diesel. The rest, as they say, is history...
Already the barrage plan has changed significantly because of this massive scrutiny, which is definitely a good thing. But is it even the right plan in the first place?
This thing isn't something we can just take down again if we decide we don't like it...
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
Yes it is, it looks awesome driving past it at night time - it literally does look like hell on earth then!
Funnily enough the air quality is still better than standing on Oxford St in London...
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
Yeah, I wish I could go out and buy a Diesel engined car. Imagine a world where such a thing was possible.
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
We've got both kinds
You're deliberately missing the point.
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
Right. Post your preferred barrage plans.
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
Is it definitely a good thing or is a bold ambitious plan being whittled down by pressure from special interest groups?
I genuinely don't have a view either way on changes in this case - have no idea what they are - but think it's rarely that simple.
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
We've got both kinds
Building a wall around wales ?
Are there any negatives ?
"Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."
The amount of water needed to fill it.
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
We've got both kinds
Does Welsh crap float ?
"Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."
Other than the obviously batshit ideas, how do you judge a technology without working examples?
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
Licensed for 40. Typically license extensions to 60 years. No one has pushed it farther than 60 years to date. But they will.
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
In a democracy, I realize you dont need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and thats the dictator, because he speaks for all the people. - Jimmy Carter
You've gone quiet, Mobius. Seriously, what's your preferred plan?
The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil Finland
How long will they push out the barrage?
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
We've got both kinds
Mythical barrage would last for eternity.
Oh noes, that means an infinite amount of nukes.
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
In a democracy, I realize you dont need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and thats the dictator, because he speaks for all the people. - Jimmy Carter
I started one and accidentally deleted it the other day and then went meh...
Anyway, it's obviously really. Look at all the possible alternatives before picking the best one. The jury is out on what is the best way to harness the estuary's potential.
There's all sorts of alternatives: fences, lagoons, underwater turbines etc...
Also is where the barrage is planned to go even the best place for it? There are several other possible locations for it...
As well as all the pros, there's also plenty of cons which need to be adequately addressed - they're all well known. Ones that haven't been mentioned so far include: Siltation (probably not that bad - could in fact become a valuable resource in the future!); the likely death knell of the BPC's deep sea container terminal proposals that have now got planning consent and resultant compensation; energy subsidies that will make the wind turbine ones look like chicken feed (the public might not pay up front - but you can bet your bottom dollar that we'll be paying 'downstream'!); increased flooding and coastal erosion on the seaward side of the barrage; the epic CO2 costs of pouring a gazillion tons of concrete into the estuary; the fact that if you suddenly realise you have indeed built the world's biggest white elephant - it's going to be ****ing difficult to remove it again...
And that's just off the top of my head...
There's also tons of pros too, obviously.
So my preferred plan is simple: Make sure you choose the right option, and make sure you build that option as well as you possibly can to extract the maximum benefits possible! It's not rocket science...
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
No, actually. Every change I've seen has been a positive one - the initial plans only had turbines capable of generating power in one direct, FFS!
Actually it's great to watch, as the pro and anti barrage groups circle each other coming up with ever more clever arguments and counter arguments, you are actually getting closer to a barrage that might ultimately fulfil every potential that it can!
Which is what I've been saying about this all along...I genuinely don't have a view either way on changes in this case - have no idea what they are - but think it's rarely that simple.
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
Some facts about barrages:
http://www.british-hydro.org/downloa...Oct%202009.pdf
"Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."
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