Why isn't this murder?

[Al B. Sure!]

What if the kid went for the watchman's weapon? What if he actually managed to get the gun out of the holster during the struggle Al is talking about? What if during the struggle for the gun it went off accidentily? Hell, it could have even been the kids finger that pulled the trigger. We just don't know.

The neighborhood watch captain is saying he fired the shot.

[Wezil]

I'm willing to entertain wild speculation on the subject. Hypothetically, what could the kid have done that would justify his being shot?

I'll give it a go Loin...

1. Gated community - The kid wasn't known to the security people
2. Security on patrol notices an "unknown" individual
3. Security stops to make inquiries (as they are paid to do)
4. Kid becomes belligerent and aggressive
5. Security doesn't fare well in the tussle and fears for their life
6. Kid gets shot

Did this happen? Haven't a clue, but it is a scenario that could lead to use of force.

My gut tells me something is amiss here but absent more details there isn't really much to talk seriously about.

[rah]

I can't see this ending well for the vigilante guy, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until the facts are known.
But I also can't conceive of any circumstances where his actions were justified.

[loinburger]

I'll give it a go Loin...

1. Gated community - The kid wasn't known to the security people
2. Security on patrol notices an "unknown" individual
3. Security stops to make inquiries (as they are paid to do)
4. Kid becomes belligerent and aggressive
5. Security doesn't fare well in the tussle and fears for their life
6. Kid gets shot

Did this happen? Haven't a clue, but it is a scenario that could lead to use of force.

My gut tells me something is amiss here but absent more details there isn't really much to talk seriously about.

The problem is that Neighborhood Watch != "Security." A security guard might be authorized/expected to question suspicious people and detain them if they're uncooperative, but being Neighborhood Watch Captain doesn't give you the right to play Amateur Beat Cop.

[Wezil]

True enough but even a civilian has a right to walk up to someone and ask them a question.

edit - I said nothing about "detaining" in my scenario.

[loinburger]

What if the kid went for the watchman's weapon? What if he actually managed to get the gun out of the holster during the struggle Al is talking about? What if during the struggle for the gun it went off accidentily? Hell, it could have even been the kids finger that pulled the trigger. We just don't know.

Why was the watchman confronting the kid in the first place? The guy is not a cop. I can't just walk around my neighborhood insulting people and making citizens' arrests, and then shoot anybody who resists.

[Al B. Sure!]

Why was the watchman confronting the kid in the first place? The guy is not a cop. I can't just walk around my neighborhood insulting people and making citizens' arrests, and then shoot anybody who resists.

Especially when you didn't even witness a crime!

[loinburger]

True enough but even a civilian has a right to walk up to someone and ask them a question.

Maybe, but it's a pretty stupid thing to do after the 911 operator tells you to stay in your car and not escalate the situation.

[Donegeal]

That's actually one of the issues I have with gated community patrols. There is no governing body and each watch/company that provides the watch, has different protocals, policies and procedures. One copany allows it's officers to do x but not y and another is the opposite.

[Al B. Sure!]

That's actually one of the issues I have with gated community patrols. There is no governing body and each watch/company that provides the watch, has different protocals, policies and procedures. One copany allows it's officers to do x but not y and another is the opposite.

Neighborhood watch captain... no security company involved.

You really ought to read the article. You keep mistaking the facts. I hope you do better on the job

[Wezil]

Maybe, but it's a pretty stupid thing to do after the 911 operator tells you to stay in your car and not escalate the situation.

You asked for a scenario wherein it would not be murder.

Has that been satisfied?

[loinburger]

That's actually one of the issues I have with gated community patrols. There is no governing body and each watch/company that provides the watch, has different protocals, policies and procedures. One copany allows it's officers to do x but not y and another is the opposite.

I don't think the guy works for a security company - Neighborhood Watches are all over the place, even in non-gated communities. They're just homeowners who patrol at night to deter criminals.

[loinburger]

You asked for a scenario wherein it would not be murder.

Has that been satisfied?

If a 911 operator says "don't confront the suspect," and then you confront the suspect and wind up shooting him, then at a bare minimum you're looking at something along the lines of negligent homicide. That would be like calling 911 to report a car accident, being told "don't move the accident victims," and then ignoring the operator for no good reason and breaking one of the victims' necks while moving them.

[Wezil]

Being stupid is not necessarily criminal.

Negligent homicide/manslaughter..... Is not murder.

[Donegeal]

Neighborhood Watch Captian is exactly that. A Captian of a hired company to patrol a gated community. Perhaps there are tiny language barriers between Florida and Wisconsin, but I dout that this watchman was a sworn police officer.

[Wezil]

Rent-A-Cop

[loinburger]

Being stupid is not necessarily criminal.

Negligent homicide/manslaughter..... Is not murder.

You're being pedantic

[Al B. Sure!]

Neighborhood Watch Captian is exactly that. A Captian of a hired company to patrol a gated community. Perhaps there are tiny language barriers between Florida and Wisconsin, but I dout that this watchman was a sworn police officer.

Aren't neighborhood watch just regular people? We have them in Philly and they're just regular people who go around and call the cops if they see anything. Like Block Captains.

Like I said, the guy was reported as being a criminal justice student.

[Wezil]

You're being pedantic

Not really. I still suggest I've provided a self-defence scenario.

[Donegeal]

In a gated community, they are typically hire from a private security firm and paid by the residents of the gated community. Sorta like a condo fees. Outside gated communities, paid neighborhood watchmen are much less common.

Like Wezil said... he was a rent-a-cop.

[Wezil]

Aren't neighborhood watch just regular people? We have them in Philly and they're just regular people who go around and call the cops if they see anything. Like Block Captains.

Neighbourhood Watch here is to look out for the little kids. I'm sure it means different things in different places.

This is why we can't really have a serious discussion of this case with the little we know.

[loinburger]

Neighborhood Watch Captian is exactly that. A Captian of a hired company to patrol a gated community.

No. The neighborhood watch is an all-volunteer affair.

[Al B. Sure!]

In the "Committee News" section of last month's issue of the gated community's newsletter, "Retreat Reflections," the neighborhood watch committee asked for additional volunteers and warned: "Please keep your eyes open" and "If you see something suspicious or out of place, report it!"

For more information, it said, call George Zimmerman.

Yup. Volunteer.

[Wezil]

Irrelevant.

[Wezil]

True enough but even a civilian has a right to walk up to someone and ask them a question.

If the kid goes ballistic (for whatever reason) should he just allow himself to be beaten?

[Donegeal]

Well, there you go. A link with a bit more info. A Captian of a Gated community watch to mean means a rent-a-cop that gets paid to do things. A complete volunteer, probably in civilian clothes, changes the situation dramatically. Now it becomes more of a question as to why the kid was confronted. (As a rent-a-cop, it probably would have been part of his job.)

[Al B. Sure!]

Well, there you go. A link with a bit more info. A Captian of a Gated community watch to mean means a rent-a-cop that gets paid to do things. A complete volunteer, probably in civilian clothes, changes the situation dramatically. Now it becomes more of a question as to why the kid was confronted. (As a rent-a-cop, it probably would have been part of his job.)

I had no idea "Neighborhood Watch" ever meant anything but volunteers. Didn't know that isn't the case for gated communities.

[loinburger]

If the kid goes ballistic (for whatever reason) should he just allow himself to be beaten?

No - in the hypothetical I gave where the kid dragged him from his car and began to beat him mercilessly, I supported the guy's use of deadly force. It's entirely justifiable to shoot somebody in order to prevent them from beating you to death.

[Wezil]

But only if dragged from the car? If the guy approached in a non-threatening manner and the kid went off on him it's different?

[Wezil]

Open season on news media.