Simultaneous moves in MP.. in practice?

[skeezix]

Hey everyone!

tldr; does simultaneous moves work, in a game with humans and AI? (humans likely on a team vs multiple AI.)

Non tl;dr, read on..

I've recently started running a couple MP games; I've got a pitboss set up in my basement and good to go!

We're currently doing 2 humans vs a pile of AIs, with the humans playing coy but more or less cooperating against the AIs out of necessity (bad starts, my being newbie, etc). (We're doing this remotely and not LAN, in free time, not always playing at tje same time.. but trying to sync up in the evenings for a couple hours of moves.)

We've been playing turn based, since thats Civ, and its nice and predictable; sadly as midgame encrouches, with 5 minutes per move during wartime.. it can become tedious; what could be a quick flurry of action in SP can quickly become a big long slog, so you become less interested in experiments or longer scoped assaults/research/etc; it takes something away.

Simultaneous moves does look tempting, but I worry -- in _practice_ in multiplayer, does it work? We need experienced MP folks to answer :) Most MP forum posts are human-only games, so I dont' see existing information about this.

For our next game, we might just try team 2 humans vs a couple teams of AI's say, so theres no worry about ungentleman-like double moves against each other. But I worry about the AIs --

In Civ, you like to sidle up to an enemy city to see whats in it (or use religious line of site in Civ4:Warlords, say), and make your attack; you can get a combat chance estimate in game or usde your instincts/etc.

But in Simultaneous moves.. if its a case where you're ready to attack and then suddenly as if by magic, 3 more defenders arrive.. that totally changes the game.

Does it play like..

Turn starts
- All AIs move lightning quick simultaneously
- Then humans move simultaneously
- Repeat

If so, then at least its predictable.

Or is it more a big mess, with AIs and humans all moving at the same time, making predicting anything inside of a turn a total mess?

Please help recommend for us -- when games last weeks of play, with a long startup, we dont' want to invest in the wrong option here. Our lives can't afford 'wasted' time :)

Thank you for advice, and as always, for the great site. (this is a new accuont, but I've been reading for years, lost my old account I think)

jeff

Aside; does BtS advanced start work in MP? To get past the ancient era? Thogh it seems best to sync up for a couple hour sone night and plow through the first moves.

[Carthage (DoF)]

Turn starts
- All AIs move lightning quick simultaneously (but based on player number)
- Then humans move simultaneously
- Repeat

Yes. But give yourselves all the time in the world, even when playing simultanously, when all humans end their turn, then it is done, anyway, so no use in putting time pressure on yourselves.

does BtS advanced start work in MP?

Yes.

[skeezix]

First -- thanks for your reply!

My question is not about time limiting but a consistent state when trying to decide my moves. We have no interest in turn timers or the like, since we're playing over multiple days, not a quick LAN game.

My question is more ..

Say you've got 10 cities, and battles on multiple fronts, as well as planning your production, checking things in the 'lopedia, looking to move around your scouts... picking tech, adjusting civics. You know, all that stuff.

Do you run into this:

- look at whats in a city
- flip to another theatre of war somewhere elde on the map, move some units
.. go juggle your tech
.. go read 'lopedia
.. in general fart around
- return to your original unit and think 'okay, lets do this' and move for the attack....
.... to find out, wait, suddenly theres a whole different situation going on?!

What I would like to see is essentially --

i) the humans can move at once, to save time
- we're team, so no worry about screwing around
- in competition pvp, maybe a gentlemans agreemtn or some sort of agrement is made to avoid double move and so on; leave that out of scope.

ii) the AIs.. when the humans move, the AIs must be 'done' to make sense.

If the 'game state' is ever changing wheil you play.. thats just not really Civ; thats another game, that looks a lot like Civ

Pray tell?

jeff

edit: any way to know who is 'done'? in normal play you can have it implicitly roll past end of turn but default and most people have 'hit return to end turn' so you can do things without just losing the turn end. Presumably this must also occur in simultaneous moves, otherwise how woudl it know everyone is done.

Does it show in the score table or something that someone is done? ie: So we could wait until all the AIs are 'done'?

Or do AIs lay in wait, waiting for things to occur, and then pouncing? Do they lay trap -- waiting for you to move your vulnerablke unit and then hitting it?

By extension -- Say you've got 2 units not stacked.. a settler and a warrior; if you move the settler first, and then the warrior -- there is a time when the one can be nabbed for free by an enemy. Normally you could move one, go check lopedia etc and then mvoe the other.. but suddenly, movement speed and order and such is very important. I could see 'sniping' going on in PVP (ugh :/), but do the AIs do it?

This is why I want AIs to be 'done' before we move.

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

Yes, Carthage (what a strange account name this guy have ) have already answered you - when the people move, the AIs do nothing and cant move. Once the last human player hits EndOfTurn, the turn switches, new turn begins and then it is time for the AIs to move in the order they are set at first. Then the phase of AI moves finishes (in a seconds), the AIs have done their moves and cant move anything, as the human players part of the game have begun.

So basically, you don't have to worry for AIs moving around stuff when you plan things and play around. They cant move a $hit until all human players hit EndOfTurn and the new turn begins.

However, if in a SP human moves first, in MP I believe the AIs move in the beginning of the turn and just then the humans move.

edit: any way to know who is 'done'? in normal play you can have it implicitly roll past end of turn but default and most people have 'hit return to end turn' so you can do things without just losing the turn end. Presumably this must also occur in simultaneous moves, otherwise how woudl it know everyone is done.

You can tell who is done by the little asterisk mark in front of each player listed in the right down corner of the screen. If you hit EOT, asterisk appears telling all other players you hit EOT. Not that you cant move and change things after hitting EOT, but if all other hit EOT after you, then the turn rolls. This with the moving stuff after hitting EOT applies only to humans though.

You can tell if after hitting EOT the turn will roll by seeing if there is someone else who is still not having an asterisk in front of his name or when you are the last one to finish moving your units around, the game says to you something like: "Waiting for you to finish the turn" in the bottom of the screen with white flashing writing.

[skeezix]

Great, thank you very much; this is exactly what we needed to know.

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

You are welcome.

And welcome back

Oh, and consider joining some pitboss here also, bring your friend too

[Carthage (DoF)]

Actually there is one named Gods and Heroes which could use two replacement players..

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

Where it is this pitboss? It is not on apolyton.

[skeezix]

I've not played much Civ in years, so just getting back into the swing of things; I'm afraid I wouldn't be much use to seasoned players who know every detail of gameplay. I think I'd prefer to be in at the ground floor .. is this a new game, or someone dropped out? URL for details? (I'm playing Warlords right now ..I'm not convinced BtS is superior .. or at least, I've not touched it since it came out

jeff

[DNK]

weplayciv.com has Gods & Heroes. We need 2 subs, both civs are in good condition in the classical era.

[rah]

While the unit movement delay aspect does eliminate some of the double move issues, we play one gentleman's rule.
On the turn that you DOW, you can't wait to the end of the turn to DOW (see that the person you're attacking has already hit end of turn), move hit enter and move again.
You must DOW early enough in the turn for your opponent to respond to your initial move. After the initial DOW turn there are no restrictions.
If you do have culture against an enemy city you can attack the city on the same turn as the DOW, but you still can't end the turn without giving you opponent a chance to respond.