Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven II

Havak · February 7, 2012, 10:36

A wise choice I suspect.

I'm not sure there are any stand out A list referees at the moment? Most of the talking points last weekend seem to be regarding the differing tip tackles and cards for same.

Although obviously there is a sprinkling of Welsh men talking Grand Slams too.

finbar · February 7, 2012, 10:48

I'm amazed Ferris has been cited. Some backside-covering going on, methinks, for the appalling yellow card recommendation from Pearson. Actually, Barnes should have overruled him or at least queried the yellow recommendation. He has the power to do both. What Pearson described was the very basis of a red card.

Joubert was very good in the WC till the final. Steve Walsh wasn't far behind. I look forward to seeing him again to see if he maintains it. The chappie has turned his life around.

Ah Welshmen. The NH's answer to Queenslanders.

kittenOFchaos · February 7, 2012, 12:19

So...who is watching SBW's pugalism?

This guy isn't a fat, aging Tongan: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news...ectid=10784069

finbar · February 7, 2012, 12:26

No, he's a fat ageing American.

kittenOFchaos · February 7, 2012, 13:24

Dangerous Dan will no longer be dangerous for Scotland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16931078

He comments on the positive experiences he has had with Scotland. However, the fact he is retiring now and not at the end of the campaign tells it all. Dan Parks...on occasion awesome, on occasion awful...one hell of a place kicker and not solely responsible for our loss on Saturday. May he enjoy a happy retirement from International rugby.

kittenOFchaos · February 7, 2012, 13:34

Originally Posted by finbar

No, he's a fat ageing American.

Hmm, I spelt it the American way...becoming a Canadian won't be difficult at all.

Havak · February 7, 2012, 14:31

Frankly I am amazed that the NZ Union is letting SBW box. I do love the staged 'scuffles' at weigh-ins though.

Hard not to fell sorry for the retiring aussie born scot. I did say I hope his team mates had words with him in the changing rooms - but it appears the stress of allowing Charlie to score may have actually broken him in the end.

finbar · February 8, 2012, 02:37

Originally Posted by kittenOFchaos

Hmm, I spelt it the American way...becoming a Canadian won't be difficult at all.

Just fly the flag for Real Spelling as a Canadian. They're nice people. They'll understand. We had a Canadian couple (from Vancouver) here for five or six years. They returned to Canada last year. Miss them terribly. They were the only fellow expats I ever chose to spend time with.

Dan Parks (a) shouldn't have been selected last weekend; and (b) probably should have retired last season anyway. Turnip has strengths and weaknesses as a head coach, his massive failing being as a selector. There is some very decent young Scotland talent coming through - Hogg, Laidlaw, etc - but Turnip seems unprepared to give it a chance. It wasn't Parks' fault that Scotland lost. They had ample opportunities to overcome the charge-down try and win the game. His teammates weren't up to it. I do feel sorry for him. Even more so after Turnip's mealy-mouthed post-announcement tribute that, reading between the lines, blamed him for the loss, and otherwise damned him with faint praise. Still, Turnip has enlisted Scott Johnson as a support coach. Says all that needs to be said about Turnip's judgement.

Frankly I am amazed that the NZ Union is letting SBW box.

The price the NZ Union had to pay for securing his signature. The boxing clause was a deal-breaker. As it happens, he's now about 90% certain to return to L***** with one of the Sydney clubs anyway. The only question seems to be whether Quade Cooper will go with him when his ARU contract expires this year.

Havak · February 8, 2012, 05:24

I guess when you have the RWC winners medal the only way is down so you might as well head back to your comfort zone. A monstrous physical presence with good handling skills he added something to the ABs - but nothing essentially required. Which is why he found himself shining pine so often.

Personally I am still struggling with the acceptance Ali Williams has an RWC winners medal - the bloke from Nottingham RFC.

Cooper on the other hand - well the Aussies don't find it quite so easy to replace such departures (though will no doubt prove me wrong if they need to)

How do we see the next round of matches? Much rests on England's ability to disrupt Italian set pieces so personally I swap Parling for Botha (the latter brings real physciality to the contact area but Parling is the better LO operator). And Flood should make the bench of course. But I might start Dickson even with the fractured hand - Youngs no longer supplies quick ball (I wonder has it been coached out of him?)

France over Ireland of course - purely because of the latters poor record in Paris.

And my head says Wales too (though my heart tends to scream "anyone but..." most of the time).

finbar · February 8, 2012, 05:45

Cooper is replaceable even if the replacement won't have the razzle-dazzle, which, let's face it, is a dang sight harder to pull off at Test level. His WC failure wasn't entirely his fault, Robbie Deans' insane tactics - selection and on-field - actively worked against his (Cooper's) strengths.

I have no clue about Italy-England. If England are as poor as they were last weekend, Italy could roll them. The still vulnerable Italian defence in the red zone will be telling. I'd always have Parling in front of Botha. Botha is muscle and not a lot else. His skill and nouse deficiencies were exposed last weekend even if he was a physical presence. Flood on the bench after 27 minutes of rugby in six weeks? Not sure about that. I would definitely rest Youngs, though. He's still in whatever trough he slid into after last year's 6N. Confidence shot. I don't think it helps, either, that he's not the sharpest bit in the drill set. Tom Croft, too, has to start proving himself, particularly with that back row consisting of three 6s. He has tended to be surplus to requirements beyond the lineout.

Ireland need a tactical rethink if they're to threaten France. They might also need a more enlightened coach.

Wales would seem to be certs.

Havak · February 8, 2012, 08:58

And, along with your last sentence, at the risk of offending kOc further Flood being rushed back in no real surprise to me. I think it speaks to the (lack of) confidence placed in Hodgson.

With the exception of odd games Croft has been off the boil for Tigers since well before the RWC. I recall he had a strong game against Wasps in January. At a game where the current England coach was present. There could be a correlation.

Botah made sens eagainst scotland perhaps - the physicaility could have helped. As it happens I think he came close to being carded on several occassions. Parling was a really good steal from Falcons for us and Lancaster knows him well from the Saxons. Had he not got injured I think he could have been EPS much earlier. But don't think I am getting carried away - I am not convinced he is stand out world class but I think he can compete at test level.

Ten years ago England had a surfeit of fairly decent locks and front row players. The cupboard is a little bare there now. Plenty of decent back row forwards though - but all at 6.

finbar · February 8, 2012, 09:36

I don't know whether Parling has world class potential, probably not, but he's a dang sight more talented chappie than the Bok. End of.

Croft's problem has been that he just goes AWOL beyond the lineout and cover tackling. He seems to spend a dang long time loitering out towards the wing for a back rower. Beats me why. Both he and Youngs are seriously off the boil. Must be something in the water at Leicester. Will Cockers have a job next season?

Havak · February 8, 2012, 10:32

Probably. Only failure to make the play-offs might change that.

There is no vibe that the squad is unhappy and Castro for example has committed to an extension but on-field it certainly is not all gravy. Trouble is other franchises have moved on and there is no level playing field with either France or the Celtic Provincial systems - even if compliance with the salary cap has clearly been a declined option for certain English teams (no one will convince me that Sarries remuneration to their players, and note that I did not say wages, complies with the cap).

I'm kind of on the fence. I was there when Cockers was a fresh faced young hooker whose commitment to that role would have had LDiCesare glowing with pride. And he is no idiot whatever the occassional media faux pas might suggest. But is he the coach to break us free of the pack - maybe not. Of course that would require a change to external factors like the salary cap too. The invincibles of 1999-2002 were Leicester men to the core and stayed loyal as Professionalism took hold. Now even our players take better deals where they get offered. That takes different coaching and management skills and Cockers is from the old school at Welford Road - I think he continues to value loyalty as much as any other factor.

That said we sacked Bob Dwyer when he finished fourth in the league (lost a European cup final and flopped us over the line in the last and worst Pilkington cup final) so who can predict?

*edit. We beat Sale in that 1997 final . I was in the upper tier of the west stand and left the pub too late so had to run a mile and then up the tiers to see kick off. I very much wish I had stayed in the pub (lovely pint of London Pride).

kittenOFchaos · February 8, 2012, 13:45

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news...ectid=10784310

SBW quickly dealt with Tillman - knocked him senseless and kept pounding till the referee had enough.

Totally agree with you Finbar re: Parks and Turnip being a useless selector (a much greater issue with England as there is so much to choose from).

As for Flood being rushed back...that is abit senseless given they are up against Italy. Hodgson scored the try and delivered a perfect cross-field kick that almost saw Strettle score (apart from Denton being up to the task). Instead of worrying about Hodgson, worry about how useless Youngs has been these last few months - he is no-where near his best.

kittenOFchaos · February 8, 2012, 14:02

Apparently Flood has been sent back to Leceister - probably far too soon to return to the fray.

Perhaps Hodgson was just that much better in training

finbar · February 9, 2012, 02:04

More than that, he was the only one who looked like scoring a try against Scotland. To the extent that he did.

finbar · February 9, 2012, 03:30

The more Turnip says on the Parks matter, the more he reveals himself to be a self-aggrandising t*rd.

finbar · February 9, 2012, 05:23

Mmmm. England unchanged. Another back row full of 6s. If Italy can keep it tight ...

Havak · February 9, 2012, 08:41

Dont worry, they won't.

And I am worried about Youngs form kOc. But worrying about his form doesn't stop me worrying about Hodgson's temperament or deficincies as both a game runner and tackler.

Flood and Manu are being given another fortnight to prove their fitness which seems fair enough. It would surpise me greatly if neither then featured against Wales.

kittenOFchaos · February 10, 2012, 12:44

Wales Vs Scotland this weekend at the Millenium Stadium...and the Scots want the roof closed to play running rugby...against Wales.

Why can't we just play in the mud and play to our strengths? Our pack can take on Wales and our backs are defensively pretty good - in cold, wet conditions, Wales will have to slug it out more and we can knock over the penalties and win. All our recent wins against notable opposition have been decided by the boot...given last week there is no reason to think this is going to change.

Last weekend had Scotland played safe on the break, recycled and gone for a few drop goals perhaps we'd have been talking more about why England had so little ball.

kittenOFchaos · February 11, 2012, 12:21

Charlie Hodgson for his second try to bring England right back into it.

Plenty of sweet passing to accompany his second try of the 6 Nations

Ben Youngs - wtf.

kittenOFchaos · February 11, 2012, 12:42

Botaz really has been a super-sub.

finbar · February 11, 2012, 13:10

Say what you like about Charlie Hodgson, Havak, he's the only Englishman who looks like scoring tries and does. Pity about Botes' goal kicking at the end. He's normally very reliable, a better 10 than Burton, too, even if he plays 9 for Treviso. Why did Masi kick? Why? A side step and he was away.

What a difference Dickson made. Like Ben Youngs used to be. He has to start. As, too, Morgan.

Havak · February 11, 2012, 13:58

Mainly Finbar because he struggles to bring a backline into the game. Hodgson was however far from the worst player we fielded (there I said it!) though I do feel Flood brings the backs into the game much more effectively still.

Agree on both starters there. Quite telling how Youngs rejected with himself when subbed- he is totally out of sorts and needs time to resolve it away from test match rugby.

And let me preface this by saying that was a poor showing by England. I get the impression Lancasters master plan is to defend solidly and hope to get lucky. Certain coaches will be watching how they fell apart under sustained pressure in that mad period at the end of the first half and thinking how they can exploit it.
But I give them some credit for how they came back by playing simple and direct rugby – territory and possession paved the way in the second half.

Croft stuck to the task at the breakdown much better though not flawlessly – he will look to drift to the wing. And most amusingly Jeremy Guscott forgot to pack his Grecian 2000 and Vainglorious as he was clearly concerned to be salt and pepper. So yes the highlight of the game for me was a BBC pundit being embarrassed.

Ultimately I am also grateful Italy have to rely on tri-nations rejects at fly half. Italian media voted MOTM. Parisse. Not entirely sure that was warranted in this particular game to be honest. I think I would have gone Farrell – remarkable composure for a youngster.

Wales should be rubbing their hands for Twickers but they still shouldn’t take it lightly. And the players won’t of course – even if the fans already have the Slam in the trophy cabinet. Then again as I write they have yet to overcome Scotland.

Now the small matter of France-Ireland if they have thawed the pitch out.

*edit I have a feeling the first win for the Eye-eyes may actually come at HQ. Thirteen in a row they have lost now, having beaten all the other sides. But one thing is sure England's record against them is going to falter at some point.

finbar · February 11, 2012, 14:40

I thought CH was far from the worst. He even tackled. I heard Dayglo as a commentator for the first time today. What a one-eyed twayt. Well, I always knew he was a twayt.

You should keep a long-term eye on the Italian 13 who scored the intercept. Tommaso Benvenuti. Turned 21 in December. A special young talent. Mallett blooded him on the wing but he will be a classy 13.

LDiCesare · February 11, 2012, 14:54

I feel so sorry for Italy. England can definitely thank Hodgson, and indeed Dickson was a class above Youngs. Agree with Morgan too. A pity about Castrogiovanni. He could have made a difference had he remained on the pitch.
France-Ireland will not be played. This would mean the match should be played next week... What a silliness to play matches at night in the first place.

kittenOFchaos · February 11, 2012, 15:20

No under-floor heating and clearly not enough effort to use heaters until the last moment. You've got to wonder if the French wanted to play in the cold - Clerc was talking about a frozen pitch far earlier in the week.

Jeez Havak, you still can't cut Hodgson some slack.

Poor Ashton, he doesn't seem to have a role in this new England setup.

finbar · February 11, 2012, 15:38

Moved to next weekend. Aren't Stade-Toulon playing there next weekend?

They had underground heating. Sarkozy dug it up and sold it to raise the dowry for Carla Bruni.

Ashton doesn't have a role because he doesn't see the ball and poor old Ben Foden only sees it when the oppo boots it to him. As Havak says, the England strategy seems to be to defend like stink and hope for accidents.

kittenOFchaos · February 11, 2012, 15:43

He used to track...England did break the line on a number of occasions once they had a scrum-half with a pulse and an 8 with the physique of an 8.

Havak · February 11, 2012, 15:58

I thought I was pretty fair in saying he was far from the worst we fielded given no one starting covered themselves in glory. So I'll be clearer - he was one of our most effective players. The question is how much of an accolade that is given it was another poor team performance. And he cannot spark a backline - I am not going to pretend he has abilities that he does not just because he scores a couple of tries. He worked hard for both and kudos to him for that - I still think Flood is the better fly half option. We will see if Lancaster agrees with me.

Abandoned five minutes before kick off - that will not be a happy ground. However with an air temp of minus five and windchill of minus eleven plus one corner of the pitch frozen then player safety simply has to come first. I tend to agree with LdiC however that rugby is not for the night time!

Exeter maintained their jinx over Tigers tonight - the only positive that Manu and Toby came through okay.