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Thread: Game II - pitboss, entry open

  1. #181
    St Jon
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    I have not logged in so I do not know what the consequences were but it was last move/first move combo. War cannot have been in doubt as an axe stack had appeared next to his city - without Open Borders. If DM's are banned, as they should be, then this must require either a re-load or carte blanche for any to repeat the move.
    “Quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur”
    - Anon

  2. #182
    2metraninja
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    I can propose you to log in and say if you will need a enforced ruling (i.e. reload) from the host or the game can continue with turn order stated from now on.

    Lets solve this quick and the game to proceed.

  3. #183
    EvaldsUrtans
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    If you did not suffer too much, I will inform Janis & if he do it again, I will relaod turn

  4. #184
    St Jon
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    OK, He did not hurt much but he has then logged in again after my move this same turn! I realise it was for only a few minutes but the rules must be set here. I now do not know when I can make a legitimate move as Janis has seen where my troops now are and can act on that information if he moves first.

    I am sorry to be a pain on this but if there are rules then they need to be enforced:-

    1. He committed a double-move.
    2. I had a choice of 3 attack options and before he takes his turn has already had the chance to act on the 1 I took.

    I request either a re-load or a change of turn-order so that we can have a proper war.
    “Quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur”
    - Anon

  5. #185
    EvaldsUrtans
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    Ok, I will reset turn before double-move

  6. #186
    2metraninja
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    Well, this is embarrassing. 4 turns to repeat exact is a lot. Are we all sure that Janis is well aware of the rules for double-move in war time so this not to happen again?

    When I first started to play pitbosses, I already had big experience with multiplayer, but it was only simultaneous online playing and I had some issues before the reason for not moving twice before the opponent was explained to me.

    I would like Janis to agree here with St Jon on turn order and to state that he will follow the double-move rule from now on.
    Last edited by 2metraninja; November 13, 2010 at 06:38.

  7. #187
    Rakird
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    wow, 4 turns because of a Dturn? thats way too much, ive lost some resources found by tech discoveries, ive lost 1 town etc...

    pls put it back where it was, and explain ppl that they can´t do dturns, or it will happen again.

    4 turns is way to much for me...

  8. #188
    PMBMaker
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    Hello all,

    If we have a DTurn situation, its an issue to address between 2 players.
    Have those two players and the host decide what's the best aproach.
    BUT... That approach must not be a worst situation than the dturn itself.

    I find a few things unacceptable, and i'll explain them..

    First, to take a decision like this without have one single post from one of the parts involved.
    Even if St Jons description of the "incident" is 100% correct, there is the obvious need to know Janis opinion, if this was done, a post stating that should have been done either by Janis or by the game admin.

    Second, can you imagine the diference in game that 4 turns do?
    Resources, player relation, wars ongoing, trades, etc?
    To take a decision that has this huge impact on the game without an aproval of a large part of the players and simply because of a Dturn its just, and i'm sorry to say, bad admin of the game.

    Third, in this game the admin is an interested part of the game, if we take a deeper look in Civstats, here's what we have for the turn we rolled back to:

    11/9/10 10:29 am Evalds Score decreased to 205
    11/9/10 8:42 am Evalds Logged out
    11/9/10 8:42 am Evalds Finished turn
    11/9/10 8:37 am Evalds Score decreased to 222
    11/9/10 8:33 am Evalds Logged in
    11/9/10 5:08 am Evalds Score increased to 227
    11/9/10 5:08 am A new turn has begun. It is now 400 BC


    11/9/10 5:55 pm paraGraf Logged out
    11/9/10 5:38 pm paraGraf Logged in
    11/9/10 10:53 am paraGraf Logged out
    11/9/10 10:46 am paraGraf Finished turn
    11/9/10 10:29 am paraGraf Score decreased to 218
    11/9/10 10:29 am paraGraf Score increased to 222
    11/9/10 10:24 am paraGraf Logged in
    11/9/10 5:08 am paraGraf Score increased to 218
    11/9/10 5:08 am A new turn has begun. It is now 400 BC


    So, something happened that turn at 10:29am between paraGraf and Evalds, eventually a city capture that was razed by paraGraf right after or something else.
    This can be all dreaming on my part and I dont know paraGraf's view on this issue but i really wouldn't like to know that this was exactly what happened.

    I'm not saying that the rollback will influence that battle (that i may be dreaming about) but what i'm sure is that this 4 turns players did, wont be played exactly like they were before and that is a far greater upset of the game than a simple dturn.

    I want to be 100% sure that any ruling regarding the game has not own interest motivation by the admin of the game, now i'm not

  9. #189
    Dick76
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    Hello,I very strongly hope that this situation is not repeated because the speed of the game is the fastest and when it returns four turn back becomes worse, so may unintentionally benefit one over another.

  10. #190
    2metraninja
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    I just checked and the double move was done in the beginning of 325 BC. Reload to 400 BC - 2 turns before this is strange at least.

    11/11/10 4:00 pm Janis Logged out
    11/11/10 3:59 pm Janis Finished turn
    11/11/10 3:59 pm A new turn has begun. It is now 325 BC
    11/11/10 3:59 pm Janis Finished turn
    11/11/10 3:57 pm Janis Logged in
    I hope that the host have made a save from the last point of the game in 300BC before loading the 400BC save, so if need be, we can continue from where we was for the last time.

    For me, the right thing to do in this situation is to reload the last save from 300BC, pause the game and ask explanation and a statement from Janis that he understands the rules and will not doublemove again, then assuming from St Jon's explanation that nothing serious happened game-wise (i.e. no kills, no moving of units in sight), then we continue the game from where it was before this reload - 300 BC and all seems fair and honorable.

  11. #191
    Dan76PL
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    Well, I know that between Evalds and Paragraf was war and it is really unfair to go so many turns back - cause it could have influence on what happened. In such situation of critical DM, the game should be paused or DM immediately reported and ONE turn could be reversed. Here it affects all other players and in fact all should be asked before such big step back. I see on a forum a lot of disagreement for such decision and it is also my proposal to go back where we were.

  12. #192
    EvaldsUrtans
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    ok, you want 325BC back? // anyway I will loose this game anytime soon so I might not be that interested to sustain it after that

  13. #193
    PMBMaker
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    I logged in the game after i did my last post, paraGraf logged in shortly after.
    I asked him to check the forum and he said that he had already read the game thread but he coudn't post because he had regitration problems.
    I helped him to register in the forum so i hope he can login later (he was in a hurry) and explain himself what he told me in game.


    He and the Romans are in fact at war, and in fact paraGraf confirmed this:

    -Romans had make some mistakes at the turn the game is now
    -As the turn is already done, Romans played their turn diferently from what they had done previously
    -by the last turn previously played Romans were almost dying.


    This game has a lot o time invested in it already, as much as i dont like this option, for me, either the game goes back to where it was or i'll quit.

  14. #194
    Rakird
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    Evalds...

    You hosted a game, in order to play it only if you win?

    "I can´t win so F*** all the others, ill just turn server off".

    That´s life

    See ya all around another pitboss!

    Rak (just quited)

  15. #195
    2metraninja
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    From Civstats it is seen that you lost 2 cities so far, which this early in the game and from your non-creative traits and your score I can guess that you have only 1 or at most 2 cities left which means you will lose the game soon if you dont go to a some kind of agreement with your aggressor.

    But it will be pity if you just shut the game down, despite the outcome for you.

  16. #196
    EvaldsUrtans
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    game has been set back to where it was - do not make double moves anymore

  17. #197
    2metraninja
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    Hey, guys, just calm down, rage-quitting is not much different from abandoning a game only because you lose.

    Evalds, I can understand your frustration - no one likes to lose, but we can make it less painful for the other

    I can see few possible solutions to this:

    - Maybe you can decrease the turn timer after this to something like 12 hours so the game takes 2 or 3 more months to finish instead of more than half year, so it wont take long for you to maintain a game in which you dont play anymore.
    - Or you can host a new pitboss on your server and play in it, so the server dont just run for one game which you dont play in.
    - Or we can search for another host and to continue the game there.
    - Or you just can show yourself like a real man and continue to run the server no matter you lose or win.

    My 4 Euro-cents.

  18. #198
    St Jon
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    Please let me set the record straight.

    I requested confirmation of any DM rules prior to launching my attack on Janis. When Evalds replied 'Don't do it' I assumed, maybe unwisely, that there was a convention regarding DM's in this game which was known and accepted by everyone. I then attacked Janis at a specific point having gathered the troops 1 tile away from the target city. I then noted that Janis had done the old favourite DM in response with last in turn move direct to 1st in turn after.

    I posted here BEFORE I moved again protesting the DM. I believe the turn should have been rolled back then and paused until Janis had posted to the thread as he never seems to even look here. If that had been there would have been a delay but not 4 turns roll-back only 1 turn. Instead I was requested to login and if no damage had been done take it on from there. I did this, there was no obvious damage, so I moved. Later in the same turn Janis logged back in which is a total no-no! It was then that I requested the roll-back.

    I do not suggest deliberate foul play on Janis' part as he obviously has no idea of any DM rule but you cannot have a game where 1 person is playing to a totally different set of rules from another. Either DM and multiple login's in time of war are OK or they are not but they cannot be OK for Janis but not OK for me. This is just fairness and I do not think too much to ask for.

    On a side issue. I apologise for the inconvenience caused but please do not use this as a reason to start calling each other names and spoiling the atmosphere of what has been a good natured game. Also, if Evalds is really just going to switch off the server when he is knocked out then perhaps there is no point in continuing anyway. I hope he did not mean that as it would be a very poor advert for joining any future PitBoss he might start.
    “Quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur”
    - Anon

  19. #199
    EvaldsUrtans
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    I am not going to switch off server, but I think I will stop hosting "Game I" (previous game that are still running on server)

  20. #200
    paraGraf
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    Hi. I'm in now.

    When I saw roll-back I was little nervous. But I tried to lead battles, and I had even less losses. Now I think it is good to play 300BC.

    Now the DM rule. I think it is not good rule but it may be i dont understand exactly what it is. Can you name it here? I need specific definition, because I dont accept to wait with my moves until my opponent moves his units. I think it is unfair, because we are playing in different time zones. I dont want to wake up and check if he made his turn or not. This problem could be also vital when I have lack of time and cannot check the Turn Tracker (TT). I think everyone have access to TT, then everyone can use it to plan his moves. I think DMs are absolutely fair.

  21. #201
    2metraninja
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    That's good news, so the game continues and the only issue is to find a way to make Janis aware of the no-double-move rule so we are sure that he will follow it. I can try to write him in the game diplo-screen. Anyone else having contact with him can try this approach too, so he sees it for sure if he dont check the forum.

  22. #202
    2metraninja
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    I will try to explain and advocate the no-double-move rule, which is common approach in most of the pitboss games I have played. Let me just copy/paste and edit some texts to make it faster and clearer.

  23. #203
    St Jon
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraGraf View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Hi. I'm in now.

    When I saw roll-back I was little nervous. But I tried to lead battles, and I had even less losses. Now I think it is good to play 300BC.

    Now the DM rule. I think it is not good rule but it may be i dont understand exactly what it is. Can you name it here? I need specific definition, because I dont accept to wait with my moves until my opponent moves his units. I think it is unfair, because we are playing in different time zones. I dont want to wake up and check if he made his turn or not. This problem could be also vital when I have lack of time and cannot check the Turn Tracker (TT). I think everyone have access to TT, then everyone can use it to plan his moves. I think DMs are absolutely fair.
    Double-Moves and multi-logins in war are unfair as it means that you can plan the time to move so that on turn 1 you attack and soften up the defence and then immediately follow up before any chance has been given to your opponent to reinforce or slave. Multi-logins are wrong as just because you hit 'end-turn' does not mean you have moved anything. You login again and react to what your opponent has done knowing that you will still be 1st in turn order so giving the same effect.

    All of the Civ series were designed as a TBSG not RTL. In PBEM or SP you simply cannot DM because you have a rigid turn-order. PitBoss is great as it is quicker due to being simultaneous which is fine in peace time but causes problems in war. If I had tried for the DM I could have actually attacked Janis' city before he even knew he was at war. I cannot see this as being fair as it is not skill just using CivStats to manipulate the rules.

    If all that is OK for you then you have to accept that basically it will be the player with more time to spend online who will win rather than the better player. I accept being beaten by a better player and if I lose then that is life but I do not want to either win or lose by just manipulating PitBoss. My point of view.
    “Quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur”
    - Anon

  24. #204
    2metraninja
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    It is up to the host to set the rules for every game before it starts or to make judgment for issues that are not covered by the rules, but there are few commonly accepted things as a rules about pitboss games. Some of them I copied from the Diplo-game section of this forum, and other are things I saw like a precedent in past games.

    There is 2 approaches to avoiding double-moves when in war. The first is dividing the timer precisely at half. Player1 plays in the first half, Player2 plays in the second. The other way (which is more popular as far as I know) is that P1 plays in reasonable time, then P2. If P1 takes too much time without playing his turn, the game is paused. This approach works fine with 24 hours timer and 18 players in a game I recently play in and the game makes 1 turn per 24 hours smooth most of the time, despite the many multi-civ alliances being engaged at war.


    What exactly means double-move:

    Wartime Double Moves

    a. Civilizations that are at war have to observe the turn order. The turn order is set during the first turn of the war. If the invaded party played first in the turn before the war started, then the aggressor must let him play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him. So the turn order is not only counted from the moment of declaration of the war, but the turn before this too.
    Which is logical. For example - you keep a stack of Horse Archers 3 tiles away from someone's border in order he not to see them. You let him play first, then login, move your HA stack to his borders and hit EndOfTurn. The turns switches, and then you move in his borders, declaring war, then you attack his city and raze it. Out of a sudden someone loses his city without even given chance to react. All this comes from the turn-based nature of the Civilization game. The simultaneous turns are introduced to the game, so a multiplayer game can be played with many people in reasonable amount of time, but this also gives opportunity for breaking and even abusing the turn-based concept of the game.

    b. Players are free to agree on a new turn order if all involved parties agree and this new turn order is published in the organization thread and all involved parties publish their agreement there as well.

    c. The host or anyone else can pause the game if the turn is about to advance in about 2 hours while any player involved did not play his turn.

    Don't get me wrong - I come from a civplayers society, where we played a lot of online games in the lobby, where all the people are online and moving at the same time with very short turn timer - say 30-40 SECONDS, not hours. There was a lot of simultaneous action and there the double-moving was erected in a form of art, and those who was the best at double moving was feared and respected players, as double- moving is very powerful in game terms.

  25. #205
    paraGraf
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    it seems to be resonable, but i have played such the game, where i lead the war allmost all the game. these rules are fair but not playable I think. if you want to play strictly among these rules i should quit the game. i dont want to wait until my oponent makes his turn.

  26. #206
    2metraninja
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    I want to assure you that this way of playing is absolutely playable, in fact 99% the pitbosses are played this way and they always was played this way.

    If you want not to wait for your opponent, you probably should make sure that you are first in order to play during war-time. This way,you will not have to worry if your opponent is played or not - just when the turn switches, play This is one possible solution.

    But waiting for you to be the last not-played-turn player, so you can make 2 moves in a row for sure, is not a fair play and is in conflict with what you said about just having not enough time to wait for your opponent to move.

  27. #207
    2metraninja
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    Oh, I remember those times playing in the lobby. I am so fast moving at turn switch, so almost 99.9% of the time I move before my opponent which in many situations is crucial. But this is another story - it is called fast-move. Technically you cant double-move in the online simultaneous games, as there is a measure to avoid a lot of double moves - you cannot move particular unit if you had moved it in the last 8 seconds. This way, your opponent have 8 seconds to react, which might be small, and it can be big

  28. #208
    paraGraf
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    i only want to have flexible game. when i end my turn and see my opponent is approaching to my city, i will always log in again and try to attack in the same turn not waiting for next. if multi logins and DMs are forbidden i must quit. it is not the game for me. sorry.
    i have wasted the time when i played PBEMs. i expected pitbosses are faster and more flexible.

  29. #209
    2metraninja
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    It is up to you to play the game or not. Pesonally I will be disappointed to see obviously strong player to leave the game. Also technically I have found and invited you for this game, so it will be double disappointment for me.

    But to me it seems strange how multiple logins or waiting to be the last player to play in turn, so you can play first in the next turn making a double move, with faster game? Flexible - yes, advantageous - it is.

  30. #210
    St Jon
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraGraf View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    i only want to have flexible game. when i end my turn and see my opponent is approaching to my city, i will always log in again and try to attack in the same turn not waiting for next. if multi logins and DMs are forbidden i must quit. it is not the game for me. sorry.
    i have wasted the time when i played PBEMs. i expected pitbosses are faster and more flexible.
    PitBoss is faster and more flexible than PBEM but by playing for the DM you actually make the turn longer. If I know I can get away with it I will wait for last 30 minutes, turn firewall on max to block anyone else, launch war, wait for turn to flip and follow up attack. If you really want 30hr turns then we play like that as if I see you trying to pull same trick on me I just login again and block until turn flips and you get no move at all. That is actually cheating IMHO but with no rules against DM/DL's you cannot stop it. I have seen such a thing happen between people in 1 game and it ruined it for the rest of us. Do you really want a game played with such bad blood?
    “Quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur”
    - Anon

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