AHL- Apolyton Hockey League 09/10: Preseason

[notyoueither]

I'm starting this a little early, as we have a bit more to do than in previous years.

Last year there was some support for making the league a keeper. That means that returning managers will be able to specify a number of players from their last roster that they keep, and then we draft from the pool of players remaining. New managers would take over a roster from a 'retiring' manager, choose the players to be kept, and take that team's position in the draft.

Questions to be resolved.

How many players are kept?

Do we place limits on how many seasons a player can be kept, before they have to be released and redrafted?

How do we determine draft order? As the NHL does? Random? Something else?

Also, thoughts on other issues going forward (rules modifications) are welcome. I don't think we should mess with stats if we stick with it being a keeper.

[notyoueither]

Reserved for the rules.

Rules for the BAPAY.

A. The draft timer is turned off from 10PM to 8AM Eastern time. Night owls should feel free to continue with picks during this period, but no one will be penalised for sleeping.

1. 12 hours for the first 3 rounds
2. 6 hours thereafter
3. If a person has been BAPAYed the previous round and has not been in contact since, they are BAPAYed immediatedly upon their turn arising until they are sighted again
4. BAPAY to be done as a intelligent BAPAY-- use the list strictly except for the obvious PIM anomolies. best player is picked to fill any available starters roles first. If all starters are picked its just BAPAY all the way.
4a. Intelligent extends beyond what is strictly on the list. Common sense and the rule of the reasonable should be used. Ex: towards the end of the draft there are likely to be a lot of goalies, rookies, and defencemen in relatively high positions who have not been drafted; a player should not be loaded up with goalies and rookies on his bench.
4b. Players unavailable should not be drafted as BAPAYs. Ex: Jagr, Radulov, Emery from years past.
5. Any manager can BAPAY by posting the pick and starting the clock for the next player.
6. Any manager who has been BAPAYed may change the BAPAY chosen player for another available, undrafted player during the period up to and including the time the draft returns to that manager for his/her immediately following draft choice. Ex: you may change your 6th (BAPAYed) draft choice any time prior to or when you make your 7th draft choice.

and full draft order:
1.1 mrboo123
1.2 Guynemer
1.3 joncha
1.4 Kontiki
1.5 Cavalcadeus
1.6 Asher
1.7 Leanne
1.8 Sparrowhawk
1.9 Imran
1.10 snoopy369
1.11 notyoueither
1.12 Flubber

2.1 Flubber
2.2 notyoueither
2.3 snoopy369
2.4 Imran
2.5 Sparrowhawk
2.6 Leanne
2.7 Asher
2.8 Cavalcadeus
2.9 Kontiki
2.10 joncha
2.11 Guynemer
2.12 mrboo123

3.1 mrboo123
3.2 Guynemer
3.3 joncha
3.4 Kontiki
3.5 Cavalcadeus
3.6 Asher
3.7 Leanne
3.8 Sparrowhawk
3.9 Imran
3.10 snoopy369
3.11 notyoueither
3.12 Flubber

4.1 Flubber
4.2 notyoueither
4.3 snoopy369
4.4 Imran
4.5 Sparrowhawk
4.6 Leanne
4.7 Asher
4.8 Cavalcadeus
4.9 Kontiki
4.10 joncha
4.11 Guynemer
4.12 mrboo123

5.1 mrboo123
5.2 Guynemer
5.3 joncha
5.4 Kontiki
5.5 Cavalcadeus
5.6 Asher
5.7 Leanne
5.8 Sparrowhawk
5.9 Imran
5.10 snoopy369
5.11 notyoueither
5.12 Flubber

6.1 Flubber
6.2 notyoueither
6.3 snoopy369
6.4 Imran
6.5 Sparrowhawk
6.6 Leanne
6.7 Asher
6.8 Cavalcadeus
6.9 Kontiki
6.10 joncha
6.11 Guynemer
6.12 mrboo123

7.1 mrboo123
7.2 Guynemer
7.3 joncha
7.4 Kontiki
7.5 Cavalcadeus
7.6 Asher
7.7 Leanne
7.8 Sparrowhawk
7.9 Imran
7.10 snoopy369
7.11 notyoueither
7.12 Flubber

8.1 Flubber
8.2 notyoueither
8.3 snoopy369
8.4 Imran
8.5 Sparrowhawk
8.6 Leanne
8.7 Asher
8.8 Cavalcadeus
8.9 Kontiki
8.10 joncha
8.11 Guynemer
8.12 mrboo123

9.1 mrboo123
9.2 Guynemer
9.3 joncha
9.4 Kontiki
9.5 Cavalcadeus
9.6 Asher
9.7 Leanne
9.8 Sparrowhawk
9.9 Imran
9.10 snoopy369
9.11 notyoueither
9.12 Flubber

10.1 Flubber
10.2 notyoueither
10.3 snoopy369
10.4 Imran
10.5 Sparrowhawk
10.6 Leanne
10.7 Asher
10.8 Cavalcadeus
10.9 Kontiki
10.10 joncha
10.11 Guynemer
10.12 mrboo123

11.1 mrboo123
11.2 Guynemer
11.3 joncha
11.4 Kontiki
11.5 Cavalcadeus
11.6 Asher
11.7 Leanne
11.8 Sparrowhawk
11.9 Imran
11.10 snoopy369
11.11 notyoueither
11.12 Flubber

12.1 Flubber
12.2 notyoueither
12.3 snoopy369
12.4 Imran
12.5 Sparrowhawk
12.6 Leanne
12.7 Asher
12.8 Cavalcadeus
12.9 Kontiki
12.10 joncha
12.11 Guynemer
12.12 mrboo123

13.1 mrboo123
13.2 Guynemer
13.3 joncha
13.4 Kontiki
13.5 Cavalcadeus
13.6 Asher
13.7 Leanne
13.8 Sparrowhawk
13.9 Imran
13.10 snoopy369
13.11 notyoueither
13.12 Flubber

14.1 Flubber
14.2 notyoueither
14.3 snoopy369
14.4 Imran
14.5 Sparrowhawk
14.6 Leanne
14.7 Asher
14.8 Cavalcadeus
14.9 Kontiki
14.10 joncha
14.11 Guynemer
14.12 mrboo123

[Asher]

I think we should have two leagues. The regular-draft Yahoo can morph into a keeper league, and we can have an auction-draft Yahoo (using ESPN's auction, like last year) that is a fresh start every year. The only problem with keeper leagues is it's very cliquey, new players can't join in unless another one leaves...so having the auction open will help is recruit new potential fantasy hockey players still. Plus it was interesting having both leagues open last year, I quite liked it?

How many players are kept?

I've never done a keeper league before so I can't speak to what numbers should be good. I would think that maybe having a "full ice sheet" of players as keepers would be good, maybe one per position? Or we could generalize it a bit more with 3F, 2D, 1G. Or maybe 5 skaters, 1 goalie? Any would be fine by me. I don't think we should have TOO big of a number of keepers, 'cause then one bad draft would screw someone over for years.

Do we place limits on how many seasons a player can be kept, before they have to be released and redrafted?

I don't think this is a good idea...but if one team does become too stacked over the years, we could reevaluate it as a league.

How do we determine draft order? As the NHL does? Random? Something else?

For the inaugural season, random draft. I think people would draft teams differently had we known it was a keeper, so using last year's rosters may be unfair to some as they were not drafted with 'keeper' leagues in mind. Then I would suggest a simplified NHL-style, person who finished last the prior season drafts first. No top 5 lottery.

Also, thoughts on other issues going forward (rules modifications) are welcome. I don't think we should mess with stats if we stick with it being a keeper.

I'm pretty happy with the stats we had last year in the regular league. The auction league accidentally had one too many goalie stats, though. I'm open for discussion on this though. Just please no ridiculous stats like PIM, faceoff wins, etc. I'm actually becoming less enamoured with +/- as it's kind of random, but I don't think there's any better stats to replace it with?

[notyoueither]

I'd be fine with it not being a keeper at all. I just recollect some discussion about it last year. I could be confusing with another league I am in that did become keeper last year.

[mrboo123]

I'd be interested in both leagues.

Questions to be resolved.

How many players are kept?

Why not all of the players we draft, if we want to? Unless there is some unbalancing about that.

Do we place limits on how many seasons a player can be kept, before they have to be released and redrafted?

I think it should be based on how good the rest of the team is. If your team was full of "superstar" players, that should make it harder to keep all of that quality of players than if you only have one superstar on an otherwise ****ty team.

How do we determine draft order? As the NHL does? Random? Something else?

What Asher said is fine.

Also, thoughts on other issues going forward (rules modifications) are welcome. I don't think we should mess with stats if we stick with it being a keeper.

A replacement for +/-. What would be is, I don't know...

[snoopy369]

You could also make the Auction draft the keeper league. At least in baseball that works well, because you set it that you keep players at their LY cost + some percent (say, +10%) to encourage people to not keep the same player. So if you had Patrick Kane for $24 this year, you'd have him for (say) $27 next year, $30 the following year, etc. Makes it easier to keep track (no arguing over whether a player was kept in how many years, etc.), less abuse via trades/etc., and you keep good young players.

[Flubber]

I wonder about how much more valuable having the first or an early pick might be in a keeper league -- Not only do you get Ovechkin this year but you get him for the next 5 years?? Couldn't that mean teams get entrenched in good or bad situations with limited ability to change things ( I never played a keeper so I am just asking)

It also really changes the value of the players too couldn't it ??

[Kontiki]

I actually don't recall any discussion last year about a keeper league, but I readily admit I may have just missed it. Since I had Ovechkin last year, I guess I'm OK with it.

Seriously, though, I think I'd prefer a clean slate each year rather than a keeper. It makes each season totally fresh and everyone has an (theoretically) equal chance. If we are going keeper, though, you definitely don't want too many players to have "protected" status. I'd say a maximum of five with one per position. In any case, it probably should be limited to one per positon no matter the ultimate total so that you can't horde right wingers, for example.

[snoopy369]

I don't think the positional element is important except for goalkeepers. There's not a strong incentive to hoard RWs, and if you had (say) Ovechkin and Crosby it doesn't seem reasonable to force you to drop one of them. (Though, if you have those two, perhaps you should ...) Definitely a limit to 'kept' players, though; I'd say you should be able to keep 2 'A' players and 3 'B' players, defining A as anyone in Auction worth over $15 (or so), or in a draft league, anyone who either was drafted in the first five rounds, or alternately you could do either league by points [anyone in the top 50].

[Flubber]

OK

I am hoping/assuming that we will do two leagues again-- I liked the auction league a lot. On the draft league I would like to move back to doing it on here where you have hours to make your selection. While it was ok to do it live last year and it certainly was efficient, I felt I was missing out on the draft process itself-- I actually enjoyed the longer process where I could see my players disappearing and have time to reassess again and again

On the keeper thing-- I find it intriguing but do think it changes how you draft. Wouldn't an older star become less valuable etc etc?

If we were to do a keeper, I would propose something a little different-- You could keep ANY players you had drafted beyond the fourth round. Every player you keep is a draft pick from round 5 onward that you don't get (ie if you keep 4 players thats no draft picks in rounds5-8 for you). The idea is that

1. the true superstars are available every year so new people could join in without great disadvantage
2. the draft has meaning every year
3. the guys that get the first or second pick don't have That extra superstar player year after year

4. there is a true decision on whether to keep any given players--with all the players from the previous years first FOUR rounds available plus emerging players-- keeping a player and not having a 5th round pick actually has meaning (again new entrants to the league are not completely disadvantaged

5. It even adds strategy to drafting-- can you afford to wait until round 5 to pick up that player that you see as a future star?

It may sound like there is not much keep in this type of setup and thats true. basically it rewards mainly drafters that find gems in the later rounds.

perhaps no one will like this concept but I am willing to try any concept that people find interesting-- If some element of keeper is seen as beneficial I would be ok with that. But I would be equally ok with doing both leagues the same as last year

[Guynemer]

I've never been in a keeper league, but I'm interested in trying.

[Asher]

I like Flubber's idea of "round 4+" keepers only. Then again I don't really care either way about the keeper league. But the more I'm thinking about it, the more problematic I can see it being. I do kind of like the fresh start every year.

Maybe we should start a poll? I'll do that.

[Asher]

Poll thread: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=187555

[Imran Siddiqui]

Oh, btw, FYI, since we are stickying draft threads now, if you create a separate draft thread (as opposed to being a part of a general discussion about the NHL thread, I'll stick it.

[Flubber]

OK the keeper issue is mired in apathy and I'll go with whatever people decide. Otehr than that I think we should just do same as last year with the following exceptions

1. Auction league should move to exactly the same stats as the draft league (there was accidentally an additional goalie stat

2. The draft should be an apolyton draft over a period of days so people have time to consider their selections/mock selections of others. A reasonable BAPAY system could be employed (football guys gave 12 hours for the first few rounds and then 4 for later rounds with a bit of discretion if someone explained where they would be etc etc. They also used "intelligent BAPAY" where they ignore injured guys or folks who might be high in the BAPAY rankings due to a stat our league doesn't use (Carcillo as an example)


Last year I made a lot of posts about perhaps changing the stats mix but since there was strong resistence to this I see no point in raising it again. So unless someone else raises a stat they would like to see, I assume status quo

I wouldn't mind us having a bench one player bigger than last year though but this is really only a preference -- Knowing this group, status quo is very likley