What's that for?Originally Posted by Zoid
FFS, you really are grasping at straws now, aren't you?
FFS, you really are grasping at straws now, aren't you?
I love being beaten by women - Lorizael
What's that for?FFS, you really are grasping at straws now, aren't you?
Cant be done, other team members have the right to log in and take a peek at things surely ?
So far only 1 team has been found to have moved units after an end turn or to have played a double move !
Somewhere trust has to be given ! and vigilence to catch any underhandedness by your wartime opponent, just like our turn player spotted things amiss by logging in to check things out after having played the turn !!!
In fact your post is very contradictory, we would never be able to find evidence of wrong doing were we not able to log in and check !
A proud member of the "Apolyton Story Writers Guild".There are many great stories at the Civ 3 stories forum, do yourself a favour and visit the forum. Lose yourself in one of many epic tales and be inspired to write yourself, as I was.
No you have 24 hours to play your turn and we have 24 hours to play ours....all I say is we donot log in before you finish your turn and you do not log in after you finish yours...
Or this will become messy...we can log in and move units before you move yours and you will not even know it...and you can do the same...This has to work with proper rules not trust...
Zoid, Chrisius, stop flaming, and discuss the issue with civility.
Indiansmoke, you make a fair point, would you care to comment on what would happen when civstats went down?
You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.
What I would propose is load from last autosave...which is the last person that logged in the game in and take it from there....if a team has a problem with the timming of the reload....prevents them taking turn or whatever....then host should co-ordinate with them what time they would like it up again.
Krill - this seems a dangerous road to go down. I know in our case at least there is often discussion well into the turn. Even if unit movement is locked down to prevent double-moves and misunderstandings, it seems difficult to expect a turnplayer playing at the beginning of the turn to perfectly make tile assignments, take screenshots, decide new builds, etc. IMHO none of these things are the least bit unfair; all we need to block is the prospect of troops moving twice...the present rule seems to do that well.
Dude, I may now be the admin, so I'll have to rule on any disputes, but talking about how to make the rules easier to understand and better is a good thing. So far you have given at least two good reasons not to implement this rule in this manner, because you have discussed it.
I'm not going to stop any discussions in this forum so long as they don't break the rules of this game or Apolyton, but I am going to encourage any discussions that may lead to this game being more fun, more active and easier for me to administrate. But I'm not the one deciding what the rules are, the teams can make the decions on what is and is not part of the ruleset.
You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.
You know when a city will grow, which tiles can be worked, what can be build....from previous turns...you can plan all this and discuss it way in advance.
The thing is that it is inevitable that when a person from your team loggs in game after we moved he will see what we did and will change things...it is not just about moving units and attacking.
Example...you play, finish turn... we log in move one chariot on the sheep tile your city was working...a player from your team logs in after sees that you can no longer work the tile...what do you do? You leave it? or you assign a new more optimal tile?
Things like that are impossible to monitor...
Krill, I have to say that I totally agree with both Chris' and Sunrise's comments.
Limiting logins to one player per team is a great way to make sure the team activity number dwindle. The perennial problem with DG's is keeping the interest levels up anyway!!
If all teams members lived in the same time zone then IS's ruling might be more workable, but for a large team spread over the globe it is impossible for everyone to log on in such a small window, should they so wish.....
Limiting discussion and intra team dynamics is a sure well to ring the death knell for the future of DG gaming at Poly!!!
Let your every day be full of joy, love the child that holds your hand, let your wife delight in your embrace, for these alone are the concerns of humanity.
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@Krill - I'm sorry if I caused confusion. I don't think we should restrict these sort of activities, but I don't want you or anyone to shut down the discussion. Discussion is always a good thing.
@Indiansmoke - I don't know why you would oppose changing tile assignments in the scenario you posted. To me, it would be foolish NOT to allow it. The point of the double-move rule is very simple - prevent teams from gaining an unfair advantage by attacking a city or stack with units never visible to their opponents, or units whose movement path was unclear. It (IMHO) should serve no other purpose. Multiplayer civ is played with simultaneous turns to give each team a level playing field...trying to simulate sequential turns by (for example) forbidding reasignment of tile assignments when an enemy unit blocks or pillages the tile is (again IMHO) the opposite of what we want to do.
As for knowing when a city will grow or finish builds...perhaps you guys just don't run your team the way we do ours. It is entirely conceivable that our turnplayer will log in at the beginning of the turn and encounter new information - a barb unit appeared, or a religion spread, or a new resource was uncovered. Do you expect the turnplayer to make binding decisions based on that info by himself? Doing so defeats the purpose of the demogame if you ask me.
This game has had enough difficulties already. I find it difficult to believe restricting a team's ability to log-in will in any way improve players' interest.
I did not say limit team log in to 1 player.....I said you have 24 hours to make your moves and we have 24 hours after you.
In the first 24 hours of the turn, or until you press end turn anyone can log-in.
Rob, please reread what I posted, and drop the hostility. So far Tony has been hostile, and you returning the hostility at everyone else who does not agree with you will not help the game. Indiansmokes ideas may be unacceptable to the DG format, but they should be discussed and voted on. Your last sentence seems to agree...
You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.
Simultanious turns is to speed up game...not for the reasons you mentioned.
Regarding rules..So you say by working better tiles than you should have, you are not gaining an unfair advantage?
Regarding time to discuss....you have 24 hours to discuss from beginning of turn...you say you need 48 hours....I am quite happy myself (will have to check with my team though) to increase the timer of the game during wars (make it 96 hours) so every team has more time.
Finnaly and back to the issue of "gaining an unfair advantage".
If you log in after us you see the outcome of the battles. So you know which attacking units of ours won and which lost and what health our units have, whether they gained a promo etc.
So for example if you had overflow from previous turn slave and could produce unit in 1 turn for next turn...all that info would help you decide whether you need axe spear or chariot...so all you do is log in after we make the battles and look at the outcome, then decide what to build using your overflow...isn't that unfair?
Firstly, you can't stop any discussions. You're admin of this game by popular vote, you're not Ming. And secondly, reloading the save every time someone b1tches about "unfair" conduct is a sure way to kill this game or make it less fun. Its already a lot less fun than it was before this whole double move mess started. I'm sure PAL feels that as well, that's why they're blowing (Indian)smoke up our asses...
I love being beaten by women - Lorizael
Seems to be a couple of things here:
1) Is it ok to go in and change things around after you have ended your turn and before the next turn begins?
2) If this isn't ok, how do we enforce it?
The first is a rule change/clarification. The 2nd, seems to me, is impossibly to catch, so we just have to say people shouldn't do it and trust that people are playing with some honor.
And what would happen in 3-way wars? Would every team get just 16 hours to play? What about 4-way wars?
The rules as they stand are clear and have been approved by all teams:
1. If any unit moves during the war, you have to give opponent 24 hours after you move it.
2. You can't move units after hitting "End Turn".
Rule 1 does not mean that turns have to be played within a 24 hour window. It just means that if your opponents move half of their forces early and the other half late, they can't move the second half until 24 hours later. This rule has only 1 purpose: prevent a team from being at a disadvantage as long as its members can log in every 24 hours.
We've had several months of discussion about rules and settings before the game even started. It's too late now to try to revote on things. (Otherwise, an admin should open the editor and erase the starting position of 7th civilization, to prevent its neighbors from having unfair advantage.)
@Indiansmoke: for your information, your own turnplayer (whoever it is at any given moment) has in principle broke the ruleset you're proposing. For the last two turn he/she was online during turnover, imo to attempt to see how production goes in a city within visual range.
So are you saying you would force your own turnplayer stop doing this? Because, technically, the moment the next turn starts he's breaking your own rule proposal (he's checking things in the first 24 hours of a turn).
Further more, personally I have a tendency to post any tiny chance within the team forum which happens within contested territory (even with screenshots) during wartimes. You're quite welcome to ask the game admin to compare my public notes within my team's forum with what happened ingame. I'd be surprised if he found discrepancies.
And as a last point, this rule you propose can easily be broken by a simple statement that "can't check on civstats for this or that reason". As I'm typing this, civstats doesn't load in my browser, simply forcing me to check if the turn hasn't switched yet.
Firstly, you can't stop any discussions. You're admin of this game by popular vote, you're not Ming. And secondly, reloading the save every time someone b1tches about "unfair" conduct is a sure way to kill this game or make it less fun. Its already a lot less fun than it was before this whole double move mess started. I'm sure PAL feels that as well, that's why they're blowing (Indian)smoke up our asses...
- Which is why I said I'm not going to stop any discussions...
- Which is why I won't be doing that...
- This forum was nice a quiet because noone was arguing which is why everyone was having more fun before this thread was started. It's a game, we don;t have to argue over every little thing and insult other people because they have different ideas about how things should go.
You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.
There is a rule on the double move because it can give you nasty surprise attacks.
If we could make the fog of war being pushed back further by cultural borders we would not even need that rule.
I don't see the slightest problem with teams changing things like building queues, or tile assignments later during a turn.
Indiansmoke, you make it sound like this option is only working against you and not open for your team as well?
Could it be, that it is at the moment working against your current situation (being on the attack, I assume?)?
And at some others here: stay civilized, it is a game!
mh
Indiansmoke - I am struggling to remain as civil and calm as Krill would like in the face of what seems to be a silly view on the game and its rules.This is wrong. Sequential turns is patently unfair. It allows the first team in the rotation to have an advantage in settling contested spots, building wonders, etc. A simple example will illustrate. Imagine you have two cities threatened by a large enemy stack of knights. With sequential turns the attacker can hit with one knight at a time, perfectly adjusting promotions to ensure the best odds and no wasted units. In simultaneous turns a player who wants that level of precision must sacrifice giving the enemy time to react. Just because we can exploit the AI via sequential turns (which are a necessity considering the processing power available to the computer) doesn't make them better. MP guys figured this out long ago.
How is this "better tiles" than someone should have? if during your attack you loose units and suffer war weariness, is whipping unhappy citizens away an unfair advantage? It's simply reacting to the circumstances.
I think any suggestion that further lengthens the turns speaks for itself
Um...don't YOU know the outcome of the battles? Can't you then alter your build queues to replace any sort of units you unexpectedly lost on the attack? It seems odd that this wouldn't work both ways.
Again, this is how literally thousands on MP games have been played, and it worked out just fine. The attacker can likewise do the very same thing.
Nice post Sunrise
You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.
Well you said "I'm not going to stop any discussions in this forum so long as they don't break the rules of this game or Apolyton which led me to belive that you were threathening to do just that...
Last edited by Zoid; January 15, 2009 at 15:14.
I love being beaten by women - Lorizael
Krill for the record i was not flaming in my post i was making sensible points !!!
and for goodness sake lad your British whats with all this dude nonesense ?
A proud member of the "Apolyton Story Writers Guild".There are many great stories at the Civ 3 stories forum, do yourself a favour and visit the forum. Lose yourself in one of many epic tales and be inspired to write yourself, as I was.
Just to get things straight in my own mind: the proposal from Indiansmoke would apply only in wartime.
re: changing tile assigments - the AI does this automatically, and potentially not as the player would wish. If I'm working plains cows and the tile gets occupied, the AI will probably work another food tile. If I actually want the hammers for production, and maybe let the city starve a little, I think I should be allowed to re-assign to a plains mine.
re: changing production. I think each team should be able to do this after seeing the outcome of attacks. The team playing first can make these alterations after their attacks, but they should also be able to do so having seen the outcome of any attacks made by the team playing last. This will slightly favour the defender, as the attacker has to get its reselected unit to the front line, but I don't think it's unbalanced, and I think it's more balanced than denying the team playing first post-defending changes. This would give a clear advantage to an attacker to move last in war, as he can see the attack outcomes (as he'll be the one making most attacks) and then alter production accordingly, while the team playing first has to stand idly by, and potentially lose production if a needed resource is disconnected.
OK .... will not argue over this anymore...It is clear that no-one sees any value in what I proposed. I did not say it for our team to gain an advantage, but to avoid further controvercy.
Sorry for waisting your time..I have nothing against anyone here...peace and game on
I have nothing against anyone here...peace and game on
Let your every day be full of joy, love the child that holds your hand, let your wife delight in your embrace, for these alone are the concerns of humanity.
The BtS Pitboss Team Democracy Game has just started!!!
Come and test your metal in the Apolyton Civ4 Beyond the Sword Tri-League Tournament
Tohunga o kairākau of Southern Cross in the Warlords Pitboss Team Democracy Game, and Member of the Great Council and Curator of The Khan's Compendium for The Horde in the Civ4 Team Democracy Game
I contacted Krill about what appears to be an illegal move made by a PAL player. I also took the liberty of pauzing the game.
OMG...
I love being beaten by women - Lorizael
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