The dangers of the Paedophile Panic.

[Cort Haus]

I was on a tube train last week, sitting next to a family with two small children, and the dad was taking a picture of his daughter.

"I don't know if you should do that" cautioned the mum "apparently some bloke got into trouble with the police recently for taking a photo of his child".

"Why?" asked the child. Repeatedly, for the next five minutes. "Is it because the government think we children are too ugly to have our photo taken?"

"When I grow up and have my own children I'm gonna take a photo of them in front of a policeman to see what he does" added the other child.

"Why is this wrong?" the kids kept asking while the mum awkwardly wondered what she could possibly say to explain this problem to an innocent child: of why an innocent family photo can now be viewed as a possible serious crime.

Obviously this is all down to the near-hysterical climate of fear of child-abuse, where children are being confused, and possibly frightened into thinking that any adult is a potential threat, while perfectly normal family activity is compromised, and many adults are probably too frightened to go anywhere too near children, perhaps leading to children feeling shunned and further problems.

I don't know the details of the alleged case of innocent family snaps being subject of police intervention, or even whether there is any truth in it. However, it is clear that a climate of fear exists, and the consequences of that are profoundly negative.

[Heraclitus]

The Paedophilea hysteria has been around for almost a decade now, it unfortunately shows no signs of weakening.

[germanos]

I was on a tube train last week, sitting next to a family with two small children, and the dad was taking a picture of his daughter.

"I don't know if you should do that" cautioned the mum "apparently some bloke got into trouble with the police recently for taking a photo of his child".

She's an idiot.
May God have mercy on her children.

[Cort Haus]

Why would 'God' be required to have 'mercy'?

On second thoughts - no, let's not go there.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

there is quite a few of those where family snaps were "actioned" upon by concerned public - and that is wrong, and for that the major blame has general UK retarded legal/police attitude towards photography ... that covers pedophiles and terrorists the most - ie if pedophiles were only taking photos I would not mind that too much...

things like these freak the public out over the prolonged exposure like it has been the case here over last few years...


http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...ws_195594.html

or this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7351252.stm

and the parent harassed

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...blic-park.html




but on the other hand the UK law/legal system has totally failed UK public so the fear of pedophiles is unfortunately founded, and more so than in other western societies in my opinion...

the ball is as usual in the "authorities" hands, and they should discourage preying on photographers, and instead fix the laws so that pedos do not get out quickly as they do ... even in the worst cases
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/ju...igrationpolicy

The attorney general dealt the home secretary, John Reid, a humiliating rebuff yesterday when he refused to refer to the appeal court the five-year minimum term imposed on a paedophile who kidnapped and sexually assaulted a three-year-old girl
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The judge had decided that 18 years would have been the correct sentence if he were imposing a fixed term, rather than life. He deducted one-third for a guilty plea, giving a 12-year term. Then he deducted a further 50% because prisoners given fixed term sentences generally serve only half the term in prison. That brought it down to six years, and the further discount was for time Sweeney had spent in custody on remand.

and not to mention that for good behavior he will get out even sooner... but this is only half the point... the further problem is that they typcially reoffend, but are only smarter for the first experience... compounding this is that kids who go through such sexual trauma are more likely to become the same themselves later on and this going on for generations combined with pretty strong individuality of this culture - UK public space has become pretty unsafe thus getting the general ?overreactions? from the public.

I'd say that the public should be reacting, but they are directing the reaction in the wrong direction, instead of failed legal system they are directing it towards photographers... plain sad, but also a fact driven by the campaigns as the one above... all in all just another point IMHO where England is screwed for good (much more so than the rest of civilized world)...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

here is one more "fun" snippet from this year
http://www.arcamax.com/uknews/s-395957-264377

YORK, England (UPI) -- A British man who pleaded guilty to helping organize an Internet child abuse ring could be free within four years, a judge ruled Monday.

While Teesside Crown Court Judge Michael Taylor found that Philip Thompson, 27, was a public risk, he gave him an indeterminate prison sentence with a minimum of three years and nine months, The Times of London reported.

"You have shown that you are a very dangerous individual indeed. I consider that you pose a very significant risk to the public and you are a dangerous offender," Taylor told Thompson.
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The Times said under the current sentence, Thompson could become eligible for parole if he can prove he is no longer a threat to the general public.

if those guys are getting this much, you know that your "average" pedo is out in no time here... and proving "that he is no longer a threat"... check this out

it is the "Sun" but it is just an example of newspaper traced real case from this year

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle1341754.ece

FREED sex beast Lee Porritt has admitted women will be “horrified” he is among them – and said: “They are potentially RIGHT to worry.”

The psychopathic rapist – released from a new Broadmoor unit housing some of Britain’s sickest fiends – openly confessed he is still a danger to girls.
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Dr Taylor’s report – made for the tribunal – said Porritt was deceitful and had shown no remorse, a reckless disregard for others, intense anger, sexual sadism and fantasy-fuelled urges.

She concluded: “These disorders are severe and long-standing and have damaged Mr Porritt’s capacity to form and maintain relationships, to cope with difficult emotions.

“More importantly, they have led to him presenting a grave risk to women. It is my recommendation this detention should continue in light of his disorder.”

Dr Taylor cited a letter written by Porritt in 2000 in which he said he could not control his urges.

He wrote: “The girls I fantasise about are 11 or 12 years old. I abduct them and carry them to a secluded spot, ie a wood, where I rape them.

“After this, I torture them and bury them in the wood and try to forget about it. I have actually been planning these things.”

[Elok]

Is this a European phenomenon? I've never heard of someone being afraid to snap a photo of his/her own kids before. Maybe I'm just sheltered.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

not European just British, or perhaps even more specifically English...

[Heresson]

I think it's common in Poland. I'd rather be taken for a serial, extremly cruel, killer than a paedophile. People usually express their happiness at that they will be tortured by other inmates at prison, which clearly shows the attitude. But it's a disease. It can lead to great harm for the children, but I believe the society is playing dumb and irresponsible. If You harm a paedophile after he molested a child, You can only "avenge" it, the harm is already done. Profilactic (?) would be better - It would be the best if people surmising they have such inclinations could get help restricting them, to avoid commiting crimes. But it will not happen, because, I think, there's no plan for that, and admitting any such inclinations would mean social death, even if such person never hurted anyone.

[Cort Haus]

Thanks for the links, Footsie.

One point I would question though, is the assumptions that victims are likely to become perpetrators. It's bad enough for someone to have been abused as a child without them being accused without evidence of being a nonce themselves.

[Cort Haus]

The thing about trrrism is indeed another problem. I like taking photos, or rather used to like taking photos, of architecture that interested me in London. Now I don't dare because I don't want a policeman all over me.

Even walking around looking at buildings under the lidless eyes of the omnipresent security cameras could be interpreted as 'suspicious' by a dumb cop / security hack who never understood why buildings might be interesting to look at by people other than mass-murderers.

I feel a genuine restriction of liberty, and a harsh climate of authoritarianism which is passively accepted by too many people who will swallow any crap about 'security' to grant the state arbitrary powers. It's made worse by politicians who, realising they lack any connection to ordinary people, or any inspirational leadership in economic or social progress, latch on to various fears as a way of enhancing their legitimacy and control.

[onodera]

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
The thing about trrrism is indeed another problem. I like taking photos, or rather used to like taking photos, of architecture that interested me in London. Now I don't dare because I don't want a policeman all over me.

Even walking around looking at buildings under the lidless eyes of the omnipresent security cameras could be interpreted as 'suspicious' by a dumb cop / security hack who never understood why buildings might be interesting to look at by people other than mass-murderers.

I feel a genuine restriction of liberty, and a harsh climate of authoritarianism which is passively accepted by too many people who will swallow any crap about 'security' to grant the state arbitrary powers. It's made worse by politicians who, realising they lack any connection to ordinary people, or any inspirational leadership in economic or social progress, latch on to various fears as a way of enhancing their legitimacy and control.

That's it. I'm reporting you; time to lock you up.

[Jon Miller]

Paedophile is a big problem... the issue is that the current focus generally doesn't catch the prime offenders.

JM

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Heresson
I think it's common in Poland. I'd rather be taken for a serial, extremly cruel, killer than a paedophile. People usually express their happiness at that they will be tortured by other inmates at prison, which clearly shows the attitude. But it's a disease. It can lead to great harm for the children, but I believe the society is playing dumb and irresponsible. If You harm a paedophile after he molested a child, You can only "avenge" it, the harm is already done. Profilactic (?) would be better - It would be the best if people surmising they have such inclinations could get help restricting them, to avoid commiting crimes. But it will not happen, because, I think, there's no plan for that, and admitting any such inclinations would mean social death, even if such person never hurted anyone.

Situation is very much the same here. The one thing all murderers, common rapists, thugs, etc. can agree upon is to give "pedos" some good torture - and most people probably agree with them.
In Germany, there was some project of the Charité-hospital in Berlin for prophylactic treatment of pedophiles, trying to bring people - those who already commited crimes, but more importantly those who feared that they could become offenders - to make an anonym therapy. Ask how long it took until some people demanded to catch them at the entry.

OTOH, our judicial system allows for sometimes ridiculously short sentences, plus further shortening by "good guidance", psychological attests, etc. In Austria, after some years there wouldn't be a trail on the criminal past, etc. This fuels popular anger, of course.

[BeBro]

Rule of Law

Stupid Mob

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I feel a genuine restriction of liberty, and a harsh climate of authoritarianism which is passively accepted by too many people who will swallow any crap about 'security' to grant the state arbitrary powers. It's made worse by politicians who, realising they lack any connection to ordinary people, or any inspirational leadership in economic or social progress, latch on to various fears as a way of enhancing their legitimacy and control.

[Jaguar]

This is an interesting thread. I have a couple of personal experiences that relate to the subject. The first is that I've recently worked a summer at a day camp with young children. In that industry, pedophiles are a concern (as are false accusations of pedophilia.)

The other experience I should mention is that when I was about nine years old and running a brief errand by myself, I was approached by a man who was almost certainly a pedophile. He was probably in his 40s or 50s, and he asked me if I would like a lollipop. It was about 1997 or 1998, definitely a time period where it was obviously not kosher for adults to approach children and offer them candy. I kept my distance from him and declined the offer. He might have persisted verbally, but he made no attempt to chase me as I aborted my errand and went to find my mother, who was only a few shops away. He was gone when my mother, my sister and I came back outside.

Oh, and apparently one of my little league soccer coaches turned out to be a pedophile, too, and I never knew that until a couple of weeks ago when my mom told me.

With those experiences in mind, here are some of my thoughts.

- Pedophilia is just one of the many things that the school/camp/childcare industry is deathly afraid of. They've become supervigilant about everything from peanut allergies to school shootings to bullying.

- There's a huge double standard when it comes to gender and pedophilia. The obvious examples are those female teacher/male student relationships, where people would flip out much more if the genders were reversed. Another example: think about what you'd consider appropriate for a female teacher of very young children. (Can they change diapers for children of both genders? Can they let kids sit in their laps? Can they give children hugs?) Now think about the same, with a male teacher. Society seems to deem it less appropriate for a man to care for children, or to have affectionate relationships with children he's not related to.

- In many respects it's not so different from other weird fetishes. Basically, it seems like fetishes are the brain confusing sexual feelings with other feelings. (For example, people who are aroused by pain.) Is it really so surprising that people would confuse the natural instinct to be affectionate towards children with sexual feelings? In a way, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than most fetishes. I'm not sure whether an attraction to children is more "sick" than those, by itself. It's acting on that attraction that's terrible.

- Many pedophiles, I think, don't want to see themselves as "bad people." Many of them aren't violent, like rapists are. They probably genuinely don't want to hurt people. They just have a strong instinct that can't be fulfilled without doing something that's morally wrong. It's really an awful position to be in.

- Basically, the amount of hatred directed towards them is kind of frightening. I think people like to have a despised group at the bottom of the pecking order, and pedophiles kind of are it. And nobody can really discuss the issue substantively, because the only socially appropriate response is to basically declare these people to be evil incarnate. Maybe if people weren't this vitriolic, it would be possible for pedophiles to get the right kind of help and learn to control themselves. I'm not sure that society's hatred for these people helps things.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Jaguar

- Pedophilia is just one of the many things that the school/camp/childcare industry is deathly afraid of. They've become supervigilant about everything from peanut allergies to school shootings to bullying.

- There's a huge double standard when it comes to gender and pedophilia. The obvious examples are those female teacher/male student relationships, where people would flip out much more if the genders were reversed. Another example: think about what you'd consider appropriate for a female teacher of very young children. (Can they change diapers for children of both genders? Can they let kids sit in their laps? Can they give children hugs?) Now think about the same, with a male teacher. Society seems to deem it less appropriate for a man to care for children, or to have affectionate relationships with children he's not related to.

- In many respects it's not so different from other weird fetishes. Basically, it seems like fetishes are the brain confusing sexual feelings with other feelings. (For example, people who are aroused by pain.) Is it really so surprising that people would confuse the natural instinct to be affectionate towards children with sexual feelings? In a way, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than most fetishes. I'm not sure whether an attraction to children is more "sick" than those, by itself. It's acting on that attraction that's terrible.

- Many pedophiles, I think, don't want to see themselves as "bad people." Many of them aren't violent, like rapists are. They probably genuinely don't want to hurt people. They just have a strong instinct that can't be fulfilled without doing something that's morally wrong. It's really an awful position to be in.

- Basically, the amount of hatred directed towards them is kind of frightening. I think people like to have a despised group at the bottom of the pecking order, and pedophiles kind of are it. And nobody can really discuss the issue substantively, because the only socially appropriate response is to basically declare these people to be evil incarnate. Maybe if people weren't this vitriolic, it would be possible for pedophiles to get the right kind of help and learn to control themselves. I'm not sure that society's hatred for these people helps things.

You are right on many counts.

Being reasonable
Protecting kids from abuse
Double Standards
Saying that Pedophiles deserve everything we can do to them

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Thanks for the links, Footsie.

One point I would question though, is the assumptions that victims are likely to become perpetrators. It's bad enough for someone to have been abused as a child without them being accused without evidence of being a nonce themselves.

well let s put it this way, not all of the people being abused become abusers themselves, 90%+ of the abusers were abused themselves when they were minors... thus perpetuating the "illness" ... there are very few people coming from "normal" background who get into this sort of behavior + there is quite a lot of sexual abuse that kids suffer, at least in the UK (majority within their homes) and a minority of them actually turn into perpetrators themselves when they come of age... and those who sexually abuse in their homes are not the "classic pedo" the pedophile the public is afraid of is the one who is totally nuts and goes out kidnaps/abuses unrelated kids to have their their way with them which is quite a minority in the group of people who actually sexually abused "someone".

Sexual abuse is a tricky subject overall, and mostly goes along with other kinds of violence first. Sex is just part of the violence - ie trying to hurt the other person - the pedophile the public is afraid of is a special case who actually goes for "only" sex with minors and than acts upon the urge... and those cannot really be corrected, as typically the urge remains even after the prison sentence etc... in that respect I would view it as sexual orientation, but certainly the one which should be prohibited as the integral part of it is using minors who are not fit to participate or even judge on what is going on...

My wife is a therapist here so works with both sides of the picture... in any case one thing that is really poor is the law... archaic and simply inadequate to deal with the social issue at hand...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Heresson
I think it's common in Poland. I'd rather be taken for a serial, extremly cruel, killer than a paedophile. People usually express their happiness at that they will be tortured by other inmates at prison, which clearly shows the attitude. But it's a disease. It can lead to great harm for the children, but I believe the society is playing dumb and irresponsible. If You harm a paedophile after he molested a child, You can only "avenge" it, the harm is already done. Profilactic (?) would be better - It would be the best if people surmising they have such inclinations could get help restricting them, to avoid commiting crimes. But it will not happen, because, I think, there's no plan for that, and admitting any such inclinations would mean social death, even if such person never hurted anyone.

well they are well hated for a good reason, and off course on the other hand there is no point in hurting them once they have done what they did...

In my opinion they would need a revised prison system where they could be productive (as typically they can be fairly functional otherwise), but still outside of the society with some sort of medical/psychiatric supervison in that environment... + much better tracking/help when they are released back into the society... and longer sentences no doubt... but the prison system is totally screwed as it is over here so an initiative like this is perhaps something for 22nd century...

For people with only such inclinations, well there is always private therapy perhaps ?even now? which could work to help them keep it under control... but other than that I don't know what could help them short of creation of an isolated community supported by the government where they could go if they find there is no stopping themselves offending, which is like self-jail, not sure how many takers would be for that...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
The thing about trrrism is indeed another problem. I like taking photos, or rather used to like taking photos, of architecture that interested me in London. Now I don't dare because I don't want a policeman all over me.

Even walking around looking at buildings under the lidless eyes of the omnipresent security cameras could be interpreted as 'suspicious' by a dumb cop / security hack who never understood why buildings might be interesting to look at by people other than mass-murderers.

I feel a genuine restriction of liberty, and a harsh climate of authoritarianism which is passively accepted by too many people who will swallow any crap about 'security' to grant the state arbitrary powers. It's made worse by politicians who, realising they lack any connection to ordinary people, or any inspirational leadership in economic or social progress, latch on to various fears as a way of enhancing their legitimacy and control.

in any case concerning photography - just a sign of times, and for the reasons you pointed out above... UK has REALLY deteriorated a lot in terms of personal freedoms in 10+ years that I have been here... from totally lax attitude to opening bank accounts/almost no identity proof to current 10 CCTV's per person, 42 day "no charge" detention!!! and all sort of "security" points to protect us against the invisible enemy... on that issue alone labour must go, no matter how incompetent conservatives might be...

David Davies made all the fuss on that issue, it is the right one to pick to make a fuss about...

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Jaguar

With those experiences in mind, here are some of my thoughts.

- Pedophilia is just one of the many things that the school/camp/childcare industry is deathly afraid of. They've become supervigilant about everything from peanut allergies to school shootings to bullying.

- There's a huge double standard when it comes to gender and pedophilia. The obvious examples are those female teacher/male student relationships, where people would flip out much more if the genders were reversed. Another example: think about what you'd consider appropriate for a female teacher of very young children. (Can they change diapers for children of both genders? Can they let kids sit in their laps? Can they give children hugs?) Now think about the same, with a male teacher. Society seems to deem it less appropriate for a man to care for children, or to have affectionate relationships with children he's not related to.

- In many respects it's not so different from other weird fetishes. Basically, it seems like fetishes are the brain confusing sexual feelings with other feelings. (For example, people who are aroused by pain.) Is it really so surprising that people would confuse the natural instinct to be affectionate towards children with sexual feelings? In a way, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than most fetishes. I'm not sure whether an attraction to children is more "sick" than those, by itself. It's acting on that attraction that's terrible.

- Many pedophiles, I think, don't want to see themselves as "bad people." Many of them aren't violent, like rapists are. They probably genuinely don't want to hurt people. They just have a strong instinct that can't be fulfilled without doing something that's morally wrong. It's really an awful position to be in.

- Basically, the amount of hatred directed towards them is kind of frightening. I think people like to have a despised group at the bottom of the pecking order, and pedophiles kind of are it. And nobody can really discuss the issue substantively, because the only socially appropriate response is to basically declare these people to be evil incarnate. Maybe if people weren't this vitriolic, it would be possible for pedophiles to get the right kind of help and learn to control themselves. I'm not sure that society's hatred for these people helps things.

with the comment that the industry better be aware of it, as after all those type of people go there where they can find satisfaction, so such industries are typically the target...

Gender has a role but in this specific case women given their "instincts" and natural role are rightly less afraid of, but still they need the same "checks" as everyone else... it is just the way nature is, and it is "easier" for men to become deviant in this aspect. Off course men should not be viewed as potential pedos first, but it just goes together with every other racism, sexism and other isms, and the very fact that we people like to categorize followed by the double standards that arise from it...