A Space colonization mod?

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Lastly if your wanting to have technology I'd recommend an Imperialism model in which tech is not researched (after all you control the colony and would be tasked with getting resources ware as research would be done on Earth). Instead technology becomes available at a particular year +/- a random range. You code in the target year into the UnitInfo or BuildingInfo file along with the spread and at load the game rolls the +/- component and records the hidden true year of availability. From then on its a simple check to compare the current year with that value to see if its valid to build or not. This has the advantage of creating 'Tech' without any new file or data structures or any decisions needed by the player. For UI you just need a simple Python script which will loop all the unit types and if the current turn equals their reveal turn throws up a simple "Such and Such is available to Build" screen.

Good idea. Though some type of science would still be performed on a lunar setting, like astronomy, astrophysics and such.

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Its doable but I like the "Asteroids floating in Space" idea more, Mars colonization is typically depicted as being more self sufficient and we lose any sense of the navel side of things. Ideally both would be available as different map scripts to provide very different playing fields. Normal Colonization gets a very different feel in Archipelagos vs Continental maps.

I'd definitely endorse a lunar mapscript.
Btw, for a "floating asteroids" type of map, would the engine allow a more fluid type of map? Like all the asteroids and planets following their orbits around a central object (the sun)?

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by GeoModder


Good idea. Though some type of science would still be performed on a lunar setting, like astronomy, astrophysics and such.

But this would primarily be pure science, not applied science. Any technical improvements made in the colonies can be simulated by the Continental Congress.

Pure science, could be simulated as a resource for export. It could be called "data". Would fit well with the information/energy economy of the future.

Originally posted by GeoModder

I'd definitely endorse a lunar mapscript.
Btw, for a "floating asteroids" type of map, would the engine allow a more fluid type of map? Like all the asteroids and planets following their orbits around a central object (the sun)?

I don't know, It would be the equivalent of having moving continents in civ. I'm pretty sure one could move an empty continent via python, but I don't know how much resources it would take to move a continent with units and buildings on it. The game would basically destroy and rebuild the cities each turn.

Maybe there is another way to do this?




So far it seems the easiest way to do this is to make a Asteroids floating in space scenario. They could more or less be stationary in relation to each other and we could only show them. But we could simulate the effect of the Earth rotating by having different travel times to reach the Earth depending on which time of year you would leave (launch windows).

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]

Lastly if your wanting to have technology I'd recommend an Imperialism model in which tech is not researched (after all you control the colony and would be tasked with getting resources ware as research would be done on Earth). Instead technology becomes available at a particular year +/- a random range. You code in the target year into the UnitInfo or BuildingInfo file along with the spread and at load the game rolls the +/- component and records the hidden true year of availability. From then on its a simple check to compare the current year with that value to see if its valid to build or not. This has the advantage of creating 'Tech' without any new file or data structures or any decisions needed by the player. For UI you just need a simple Python script which will loop all the unit types and if the current turn equals their reveal turn throws up a simple "Such and Such is available to Build" screen.

This is an excellent proposal. Using this and combining it with exporting astronomical & scientific data and with the continental congress for small technical improvements invented by colonists tinkering in their mechanical shops could cover all the aspects of science & technology in space.


Also, I like your proposals for civs to have UUs. I would also advocate UBs.

PS What should be done with crosses? Unless America becomes Gildea and the EU Eurabia I can't imagine religious freedom making sense. Perhaps replace it with political freedoms that have been lost on Earth in the early 21st century?

[Impaler[WrG]]

Reminds me a bit of the premise behind this Anime series,

http://www.bandaivisual.us/freedom/story/story.html

Don't have any idea how you could get a hold of a copy but it might prove a good source of inspiration, especially for artists.

PS What should be done with crosses? Unless America becomes Gildea and the EU Eurabia I can't imagine religious freedom making sense. Perhaps replace it with political freedoms that have been lost on Earth in the early 21st century?

Doesn't that step on the Liberty Bell concept?

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]

Doesn't that step on the Liberty Bell concept?

I know, but I don't have a better idea about what to do regarding religion.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I got it, call it "Fame" or if your in a more subversive mood "Propaganda". Basically this is the hyped up news/advertising you do to attract more immigrants. Its different enough to not be stepping on Liberty or Wealth and logically provides the motivation for immigrants to join you.

Preachers would be replaced with "Evangelists" (Official Dictionary.com definition #6. A person marked by evangelical enthusiasm for or support of any cause.) which would work in the "Broadcast Center" building or some such thing. It's a bit of a veiled reference to the religious angle of Colonization which would allow easy transition while still being sufficiently modern/futuristic.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I got it, call it "Fame" or if your in a more subversive mood "Propaganda". Basically this is the hyped up news/advertising you do to attract more immigrants. Its different enough to not be stepping on Liberty or Wealth and logically provides the motivation for immigrants to join you.

Preachers would be replaced with "Evangelists" (Official Dictionary.com definition #6. A person marked by evangelical enthusiasm for or support of any cause.) which would work in the "Broadcast Center" building or some such thing. It's a bit of a veiled reference to the religious angle of Colonization which would allow easy transition while still being sufficiently modern/futuristic.

Thanks, fame sounds a bit weird, but propaganda seems perfect! Especially since China (England) will be better at using it.


Now the concerning the back story I think something slightly dystopian would be appropriate:

Ok Earth 2075

The environment on Earth is damaged, the ice on Greenland is melting and will cause a new ice age in a few centuries (another motivation for space colonization) and the major political entities are all at least somewhat authoritarian (we need this as to explain why EU and US citizens would consider themselves more free if the seceded).

In the US the office of president has been continuing its growth much as it had in the 20th century, megacorporations now endorse candidates and some even have contracts with their employees of who they have to vote for. A nuclear terrorist attack destroyed Boston in 2060, after that a nuclear war with the Saudi coalition ensued. Civil liberties are severely eroded.

Russia has also gotten a bit worse politically and better economically, but its actually slightly more democratic than the US, they however have large problems caused by the second economic collapse and have to deal with corruption on a scale not seen since the 1990's its current president is a strong proponent of realpolitik. The populace is nationalist and very anti-Chinese and anti-US. Bellorussia, Eastern Ukraine, Armenia, Serbia and Abhazia are part of the Russian federation.

Europe is varied, some countries have semi-functional democracies others are corporate republics, while others have practical oligarchies or even in the case of Britain are ruled by a very despotic regency council (the royal families where mostly killed off by bioterrorism). Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, Western Ukraine and all of the Balkans except Serbia have become EU members. Citizens have many rights in theory, but in practice the nanny state of the EU has stripped of its social programs (no more universal health care since 2048) become a prison, a comfy prison but a prison never the less. Democracy on the level of the union is in theory the best in the world since the constitution was adopted in 2017, but in practice Brussels is fast becoming the next Washington. ESA has become an EU agency.

China is today's China but with an older population and larger population (1,8 billion since the legitimate children registration act), Mongolia, North Korea, Taiwan and nearly all of Russian Siberia have been annexed or made into puppet states. China has similarly to Europe and Russia problems with its large Muslim population and represses it mercilessly.


All nations are as capitalist as Morgan, all have a vast divide between the rich and the poor.

A space elevator is under construction and will be completed by 2150. All the powers have Lunar bases, China sent a man to Mars in 2042, after the international European/Russian/American mission was canceled due to conflicts of interest a decade earlier.


Ok, is the Earth side of the back story sound? I would kindly ask everyone to make suggestions and improvements.

[Impaler[WrG]]

after that a nuclear war with the Saudi coalition ensued.

Seems far-fetched, If their still an Oil supplier (the last one on earth by this point) then the war is inconceivable. If their not then the war is pointless unless the Saudi monarchy fell to Islamic Extremist and was behind the nuking of Boston (or accused of being behind it). Even in that case its a one sided affair. Also Russia as more democratic then US seems a stretch.

Some more details on the rest of the world would be nice for background purposes (also possibly we might see them as 'minor' players possibly starting at a delayed time so their quite literally 'behind'). Some rough thoughts.

Africa - Raped for natural resources by China and left for dead (as always), as the last major resource load on earth its depletion is a major impetus for space colonization.

South America - A loose nit leftist coalition forms between major powers and is militantly isolationist, might be a minor power.

Middle East - Oil exhaustion leaves most of the region destitute but a few localities use their vast accumulated wealth to buy protection from their hostile neighbors while acting as the worlds money lenders.

India - The worlds foremost second tier power and major thorn in the side of China (rather then Russia), constantly seeks to align itself with US and EU. One of the most democratic counties at this point, minor space power.

South East Asia - Mostly serves as a population pressure release valve for China, constant small scale conflicts which continue to entangle Australia and put it at odds with china.

Australia - Effectively an extension of EU at this point but also on good terms with US, minor space power.

Japan - Isolationist, carefully balances between US/China alignment serves as a broker between the two, minor space power.

[GeoModder]

2075 sounds too late a date to keep political organisations more or less as they are today. That's far enough away (more then 2 generations!) to use complete turnarounds.
Your idea of a still "united" Europa with so many different kinds of governments, at least so extreme as you describe, doesn't hold much ground to me. More chances the union would have collapsed under that kind of socio-political pressure. Besides, the whole economic centrepoint of the EU could have shifted eastwards, making say Prague the new 'capital' of the union. And are Serbs so stubborn that 2 generations later they'll still maintain an isolasionist stance?
I would expect Great Britain to have ceded and joined a sort of loose anglocentric-league in such circumstances. Or even a setback to the Independent States of America, caused by the growing ethnic disparity in the former USA.

In any case, in such a setting the Moon could be considered the "milkcow" from the space-going nations for resources, or else a corporation playground anxious to leave restless nations off the Moon.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]


Seems far-fetched, If their still an Oil supplier (the last one on earth by this point) then the war is inconceivable. If their not then the war is pointless unless the Saudi monarchy fell to Islamic Extremist and was behind the nuking of Boston (or accused of being behind it).

The Monarchy is long gone (royal familiy killed off by Bio terrorists, same as in Europe, nasty stuff went down around 2030 ), Saudi Arabia together with a few Arab league members went Islamic like but didn't get along with Iran (religious differences). The fundy government firmly denied supporting the extremist organization, but this didn't stop the US from dropping two nukes on the collation. The coalition responded and one more US city got nuked. The US has since invaded the territory "to spread democracy" and drill for the last oil the territory has to offer.

There is also oil in the Antarctic sea (Russia, Europe and Canada share it). That is why Canada is firmly under the domination of the US. The Canadians resent this but can't do much about it, since if they rioted against their pupet government the US would just annex the country. This is also a reason why the UK populace eventually sided with the EU rather than the vague idea of an "Anglo Union". In any case the US is less Anglo, its bilingual with Spanish and English being the languages of the federal government since 2032.

Oil is still important, but not as an energy source. The countries that could afford it have transitioned to a fusion economy, the ones that couldn't have been set back decades.

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]

Also Russia as more democratic then US seems a stretch.

Its 60 years into the future. Compare today Germany today and what it was like the 1940's. The US has a population of 400 mil while Russia has gone down to 100 million, this made Russia more manageable, the only reason why it didn't join the EU was because of "Serbia" syndrome, after it lost Siberia to China and Western Ukraine to Europe while suffering a economic collapse.

Also I didn't say Russia is much more democratic.


Also: Nuclear terrorist attack and nuclear war.

Tell me considering what 911 did to civil liberties what do you think that would do to US democracy?


Also the second economic collapse in Russia brought about the breakdown of centralized power (stooping the string of almost Czarist PMs), this is then followed by careful attempts at democratic reform (in theory Russia is fully democratic today) with the government quietly trying to appease the EU. Russia in 2075 is similar to the Russia of the 1990's just richer.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]


Africa - Raped for natural resources by China and left for dead (as always), as the last major resource load on earth its depletion is a major impetus for space colonization.

South America - A loose nit leftist coalition forms between major powers and is militantly isolationist, might be a minor power.

Middle East - Oil exhaustion leaves most of the region destitute but a few localities use their vast accumulated wealth to buy protection from their hostile neighbors while acting as the worlds money lenders.

India - The worlds foremost second tier power and major thorn in the side of China (rather then Russia), constantly seeks to align itself with US and EU. One of the most democratic counties at this point, minor space power.

South East Asia - Mostly serves as a population pressure release valve for China, constant small scale conflicts which continue to entangle Australia and put it at odds with china.

Australia - Effectively an extension of EU at this point but also on good terms with US, minor space power.

Japan - Isolationist, carefully balances between US/China alignment serves as a broker between the two, minor space power.

I already had ideas for more space powers that start at later dates. But I think adding more of them for the sake of adding them would be bad. Each one should play uniquely. I have a 3 good faction ideas and I do think they should be added in, but keeping the mod simple until there is something playable seems best.

My ideas (to be possibly used for the sequel to the mod).

Japan, has south Korea as a puppet state, 80 million people, the country with the most advanced robotic and cybernetic technology. They would have problems attracting unskilled labor to the colonies (constantly shrinking population) and getting experts from earth would be more expensive. But would be the only civ that could use robotic workers from the game's start. They would also have super specialists, cyborgs, they would be more expensive than master miners/planters/whatever but would be more cost-effective.

Iran + Central Asian Union. Islamic revival (nuclear blast near Medina may have something to do with this, as would the millions of Muslims being oppressed in the other three Eurasian powers and as would the squalor of Muslim refugees fleeing the middle east) after decades of secularism, the second Islamic republic has been proclaimed. Sunnis and Shiites in this republic have agreed on a reform of Islam that has brought them together and formed a third branch of Islam.

I was thinking of giving them a different victory condition since they consider their state the true Muslim Ummah and breaking away from it would be unthinkable. Also they get to use spies and can subvert (convert) other colonies to their cause. Also propaganda they make not only increases the number of people at their docks but reduces the number of people appearing on other peoples docks (the Muslim population of Eurasia and converts from the US). They are still moving to a fusion economy but control over the Caspian sea and eastern Iraq and Kuwait have lessened the problems of their transition.

My third idea was rather radical, a non-human faction, but I'll keep that one for myself for the time being.

India and South America have been pushed behind due to being unable to transition to a fusion economy. Also India and Pakistan may have gone to war. And the flooding of Bangladesh has been nothing short of a disaster for India. Brazil with its ethanol fuel would seem like a good candidate to be less affected by the global oil peak, but massive deforestation, soil erosion and global warming don't mix well. They could become players but would only come in decades after Iran and Japan.

Mexico and Capitalist Cuba are part of the North American union, like Canada they are dominated by the US. Argentina is isolated an has close ties to the EU and is pettioning to join the union despite not being in Europe, its arguing that it has as much right to enter the union as Greenland did (it reentered in 2045 after border conflicts with Canada became scary as the US got more and more involved) . The other states have formed a leftist Neo- Marxist coalition that has been left to grow due to the US being overstretched in the middle east. They may form a Federation of Socialist republics. Ironically the coalition is advancing rapidly and may serve as a source of a Communist revival in a world disappointed by capitalism. They are the leading exporter of software (open code/free content within the coalition, crazy copy protection outside the coalition to make the dirty capitalist pay for their exploitation of the worlds huddled masses ). Cyber warfare is their forte.
Oh, Puerto Rico is a US state.

BTW Russia isn't really China's enemy, its to weak for this. The same goes for Japan. China is the worlds top superpower, followed closely by the US (the US is trying to compete militarily but can't match China economically much like the USSR of the 1970's and 80's). The EU has is militarily comparable to what China was during the cold war an important player with the possibility of future growth but not comparable to the two giants.


SE Asia I imagined it dominated by China, with significant Indian and Central Asian Islamist influence.

Middle east not in Central Asian union horrible and chaotic region, much like Africa today. Islands of stability: American occupied Arabia, the Israeli-Palestinian Federation and European Morroco. Turkey has been Balcanized. Only Istanbul achieved the dream of EU membership.

Africa: a very bad place to be in. Global warming, AIDS and the oil peak have robbed Africa of its "cheap labor> double digit economic growth" phase.

Australia today really doesn't have a space program.
Also isn't it possible that Australia would form some kind of coalition with South East Asia?

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by GeoModder
2075 sounds too late a date to keep political organisations more or less as they are today. That's far enough away (more then 2 generations!) to use complete turnarounds.

Did you miss Russia being more democratic than the US and China annexing half of Asia while the middle east has been nuked and bioterrorists have killed of any royal families that claimed Islam was not a religion of peace?

Originally posted by GeoModder

Your idea of a still "united" Europa with so many different kinds of governments, at least so extreme as you describe, doesn't hold much ground to me. More chances the union would have collapsed under that kind of socio-political pressure. Besides, the whole economic centrepoint of the EU could have shifted eastwards, making say Prague the new 'capital' of the union. And are Serbs so stubborn that 2 generations later they'll still maintain an isolasionist stance?
I would expect Great Britain to have ceded and joined a sort of loose anglocentric-league in such circumstances. Or even a setback to the Independent States of America, caused by the growing ethnic disparity in the former USA.

In any case, in such a setting the Moon could be considered the "milkcow" from the space-going nations for resources, or else a corporation playground anxious to leave restless nations off the Moon.

The EU of today was actually a big fat failure, its only started integrating again after the oil peak, which scared the s**** out of them. Russia was a big player had its own union (Belarussia, Ukraine, Serbia and a few caucaus States joined in) for 50 years and held sway over eastern Europe again, it together with the US sabotaged the European project right up until the 2040's. We can call it the European Federation or the European Hegemony, but why rename something for the sake of renaming it?

Despite this the EU has a common army, a Union wide police force, a space agency and standardized vegetables.

Also all European countries are officially democracies. And the European parliament is comparable in power to local national parliaments when they try to do stuff on their own turf. The differences arrise from the was those members of parliament get there. All countries are officially democracies but large countries like France (85 million people, a reward for having high birth rates and annexing part of Belgium and Switzerland ) and United Germany (90 million, has half or Switzerland, part of of Belgium and Austria also the local Turk minority helped lots of their cousins come to the EU after the country collapsed) couldn't resist the temptation to become corporate controlled like the US (the corporations are smaller and European but still mostly evil ). Italy is an oligarchy. Countries like Spain and Poland have semi-functional democracies always on the edge of falling to the undemocratic forces. Overall the smaller countries have politically after some major turmoil returned to the way they are today, albeit with some almost apartheid like laws for Muslims.


Yes the economic counterpoint would have shifted east if Eastern Europe did not bare the brunt of the demographic and energy crisis. You see the crazy environmentalists and a few ecoterrorist groups where not powerfull enough to stop a revival of nuclear energy in France, Britain, Spain, Italy and Germany but where strong enough to do so in Poland, Romania,... this caused trouble. And in the 2010's during a time when the old EU was still working hundreds of thousands of young people left for Western Europe, combining this with birth rates much lower than western Europe and a lack of immigration...

The US is now not only part of the Anglosphere but is also a latina American country this reduced its appeal to the British. Combine this with the shock of loosing its royal family to terrorists and the fact that the US was in no position to help Britain during the oil peak, while France was just sitting there all alone with the worlds first fully operational fusion power plant and you can imagine why the British are one of the most proEuropean countries in 2070.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Did you miss Russia being more democratic than the US and China annexing half of Asia while the middle east has been nuked and bioterrorists have killed of any royal families that claimed Islam was not a religion of peace?

Not at all.
That's the stuff that could happen within a generation. In two a whole other setup should have risen.

Originally posted by Heraclitus
The EU of today was actually a big fat failure, its only started integrating again after the oil peak, which scared the s**** out of them. Russia was a big player had its own union (Belarussia, Ukraine, Serbia and a few caucaus States joined in) for 50 years and held sway over eastern Europe again, it together with the US sabotaged the European project right up until the 2040's.

Yes the economic counterpoint would have shifted east if Eastern Europe did not bare the brunt of the demographic and energy crisis. You see the crazy environmentalists and a few ecoterrorist groups where not powerfull enough to stop a revival of nuclear energy in France, Britain, Spain, Italy and Germany but where strong enough to do so in Poland, Romania,... this caused trouble. And in the 2010's during a time when the old EU was still working hundreds of thousands of young people left for Western Europe, combining this with birth rates much lower than western Europe and a lack of immigration...

The US is now not only part of the Anglosphere but is also a latina American country this reduced its appeal to the British. Combine this with the shock of loosing its royal family to terrorists and the fact that the US was in no position to help Britain during the oil peak, while France was just sitting there all alone with the worlds first fully operational fusion power plant and you can imagine why the British are one of the most proEuropean countries in 2070.

You have quite an imagination, I give you that.
What's wrong with splitting up good ol' USA between a southwestern latino part and a northeastern anglo part.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by GeoModder

You have quite an imagination, I give you that.
What's wrong with splitting up good ol' USA between a southwestern latino part and a northeastern anglo part.

I have no problem with that.


Except that the US once fought a civl war to stay one country, and a civil war in hte 21st century in a nuclear power would eliminate them as a playable faction.


Now if Canada annexed the anglo part... maybe Canada should be one of the 4 civs.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Now if Canada annexed the anglo part... maybe Canada should be one of the 4 civs.

Imagine as a country flag the Canadian leaf surrounded by the stars of the USA underlayed by the British Union Jack. There you have your anglo-union, and good ol' America a foothold in the European theatre at that in the form of the British Isles.
You could even add Australia to that mix with the Southern Cross depicted in the right corner.

You mentioned the beginnings of a space elevator. At present, the only suitable location for such a structure is Mt. Kenia in the Kenia (Africa). So I think its reasonable to assume a rising economic African spacepower in that area.

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Except that the US once fought a civl war to stay one country, and a civil war in hte 21st century in a nuclear power would eliminate them as a playable faction.

Not necessarily. The Soviet Union was a nuclear power too when it collapsed. No nukes were used in that "revolution".

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by GeoModder

Not necessarily. The Soviet Union was a nuclear power too when it collapsed. No nukes were used in that "revolution".

The Soviet Union had lenient leadership at the time, there was no civil war. I can't imagine a US president lenient enough to let the US break up without a civil war.

Originally posted by GeoModder

You mentioned the beginnings of a space elevator. At present, the only suitable location for such a structure is Mt. Kenia in the Kenia (Africa). So I think its reasonable to assume a rising economic African spacepower in that area.

Or that Kenya is a colony again.

The base station designs typically fall into two categories—mobile and stationary. Mobile stations are typically large oceangoing vessels,[26] though airborne stations have been proposed as well.[citation needed] Stationary platforms would generally be located in high-altitude locations, such as on top of mountains, or even potentially on high towers.[5]

Mobile platforms have the advantage of being able to maneuver to avoid high winds, storms, and space debris. While stationary platforms don't have these advantages, they typically would have access to cheaper and more reliable power sources, and require a shorter cable. While the decrease in cable length may seem minimal (typically no more than a few kilometers), that can significantly reduce the minimal width of the cable at the center, and reduce the minimal length of cable reaching beyond geostationary orbit significantly.

In any case I imagined it being a mobile station.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
The Soviet Union had lenient leadership at the time, there was no civil war. I can't imagine a US president lenient enough to let the US break up without a civil war.

You never know. The "stern grandfather type" of presidents the US seems to sprout so often might have come to an end 60 years from now. Besides, with over half the military being from non-anglo descend (aren't the poor demographic groups over represented in the army anyway?) any president might not be able to rely on a military solution.

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Or that Kenia is a colony again.

Please! Even todays "colonies" indebt the homecountry more often then not in the face of relentless opposition!
That will only become worser in times when economies are even more ramshackle and available weapons for guerillas more lethal/destructive.

Originally posted by Heraclitus
In any case I imagined it being a mobile station.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by GeoModder

Please! Even todays "colonies" indebt the homecountry more often then not in the face of relentless opposition!
That will only become worser in times when economies are even more ramshackle and available weapons for guerillas more lethal/destructive.

Now, now neocolonialism is alive and well. And China is showing remarkable talent for it. A country can be independent and still be a colony for all intents and purposes.


A major piece of infrastructure needs not be built in a developed country. The Panama and Suez canals are a good example. Built by foreign imperialist powers, they remained under their control for decades before the local population managed to gain some control and even after that it was forced to allow concessions to the previous owners.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Now, now neocolonialism is alive and well. And China is showing remarkable talent for it. A country can be independent and still be a colony for all intents and purposes.

And another neocolonial power, the USA, is running a huge deficit because of this.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Theirs not reason a space elevator need be built on the top of a mountain, thats just something Clark put in the book to provide a justification for the Shrilanka like setting. Any equatorial site is adequate, even attacking to a floating platform at sea.

As for Southwestern US succeeding to become some kind of bilingual state, thats 10 years behind the times because Hispanics have gone EVERY WARE in the US, its not just regional now (one of the main reasons for the surge in anti-immigrant sentiment) also theirs no logical reason for the Hispanic population of the region to want to break away from the federal government, the feds provides practically all welfare services as the southwest (outside of California) has exceedingly stingy state governments. The predominantly poorer Hispanic population isn't going to screw itself over like that.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Theirs not reason a space elevator need be built on the top of a mountain, thats just something Clark put in the book to provide a justification for the Shrilanka like setting. Any equatorial site is adequate, even attacking to a floating platform at sea.

As for Southwestern US succeeding to become some kind of bilingual state, thats 10 years behind the times because Hispanics have gone EVERY WARE in the US, its not just regional now (one of the main reasons for the surge in anti-immigrant sentiment) also theirs no logical reason for the Hispanic population of the region to want to break away from the federal government, the feds provides practically all welfare services as the southwest (outside of California) has exceedingly stingy state governments. The predominantly poorer Hispanic population isn't going to screw itself over like that.

That is why I proposed that he whole of the US becomes a bilingual country. But GeoModder has some persistent fantasy about a breaking up the US.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Theirs not reason a space elevator need be built on the top of a mountain, thats just something Clark put in the book to provide a justification for the Shrilanka like setting. Any equatorial site is adequate, even attacking to a floating platform at sea.

There's a very good reason to built a space elevator on top of a mountain as long as your materials technology isn't mature enough: the mass of the whole thing. Those last 5 vertical kilometers can make the difference for the whole structural integrity.
Another reason a mountain is preferable would be the atmosphere itself. If things indeed go haywire with global warming there's no telling how the weather in the relatively calmer equatorial regions will develop. For all we know super-Katrina's will be born right on it, sweeping any floating platform beneath the waves. And since typically hurricanes spread out several hundreds of kilometers a platform can hardly avoid those...

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
As for Southwestern US succeeding to become some kind of bilingual state, thats 10 years behind the times because Hispanics have gone EVERY WARE in the US, its not just regional now (one of the main reasons for the surge in anti-immigrant sentiment) also theirs no logical reason for the Hispanic population of the region to want to break away from the federal government, the feds provides practically all welfare services as the southwest (outside of California) has exceedingly stingy state governments. The predominantly poorer Hispanic population isn't going to screw itself over like that.

The feds provide wellfare services today. Would they still do so 2 generations from now. Or even be able to do so. Is it so impossible that Anglo-resentment about Hispanic migration hits the fan and explodes somehow?

Originally posted by Heraclitus
That is why I proposed that he whole of the US becomes a bilingual country. But GeoModder has some persistent fantasy about a breaking up the US.

Blame Heinlein in his "Friday" novel.
Bottom point is, it might look cooler to have a whole new set of "superpowers", or significantly altered ones, in a future Colonisation setting. But in any case whatever the "powers of the day" are, it shouldn't have a tremendeous impact on the Lunar setting itself. It's just backstory fluff.

[Heraclitus]

I think I agree with your last point, we should drop the story for now and talk about the mod's economy and what it will be about.


I'm in favour of starting out with a copy cat of Colonizations economy and then tweaking it so it makes sense and is more interesting.


Perhaps we should drop simulating just the Moon and focus on an asteroid colonization mod? That could be easier to do, since it would basically be "islands floating in space" and potentially more interesting since several map scripts could be made, the Moon could be reserved for a scenario whit very short travel times to earth and a giant blob instead of several small rocks.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
I'm in favour of starting out with a copy cat of Colonizations economy and then tweaking it so it makes sense and is more interesting.

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Perhaps we should drop simulating just the Moon and focus on an asteroid colonization mod? That could be easier to do, since it would basically be "islands floating in space" and potentially more interesting since several map scripts could be made, the Moon could be reserved for a scenario whit very short travel times to earth and a giant blob instead of several small rocks.

I'd be in quite in favour of an asteroid colonization mod if a mapscript could be created with orbiting planets/moons/asteroids around a central point (the sun).
But nothing I read on the engine sofar says that's possible. At least not the orbiting part.
A Final Frontier graphics port seems possible, but that encompasses several solar systems.
A classical mapscript of a moon/planet is where the game itself is based upon, but I don't know if in civ4:Col a mapscript can be made round (units moving over the westside appearing on the eastside of the screen).

On an interstellar colonization level, I'd be hard pressed to find tradeable commodities that Earth would need. Not metals, that's for sure. Some native flora/fauna, data, rare exquisitive foodstuff/beverages for the rich at home,... Bulk food wouldn't be economically feasable, that's for sure.
On a solar system level, commodities are easy: metals and composites of all kinds, data, He³, perhaps even waterice.
And the Moon is of course mostly the same as asteroids qua resources.

[Heraclitus]

I can think of Dilithium crystals.

So for now we are stuck with a solar system space colonization mod? That can be fun too. Now maybe we could avoid the orbit problem if we take the ringworld and combine that with the suggestion of Imapler to make space ships launcable in every space square


We would just have to ignore or lock out the full out zoom and it would be identical to an orbiting asteroid field. Its drawback is that we won't be able to have both a moon and and asteroid field in the same map.

Sun + Inner solar system = S
X = Asteroid belt

XXXX
X s X
XXXX

[Heraclitus]

Wouldn't it be possible to steal the space terrain graphics from Final Frontier Blue marble? The asteorids could also be used as minor asteroids. The terrain for the major asteorids (The ones you can settle) we could perhaps steal from Song of the Moon?


I know C4C isn't compatible with civ4 and civ4 BtS but there surley must be a way to convert the graphics?

[Heraclitus]

I just had an idea on how to model the planets (Mars, Mercury, ect). . But it uses a few tricks and may be hard to make look nice. Also only one owner per planet could be allowed.


W = asteorid belt
S= high movement cost
M = Mars
... = orbit

.............................SSS
.............................SMS.................. .......................
.............................SSS


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


The planets would be the same as in the mod I linked, they would be surrounded by slow space terrain (S). And since nothing could stand in their way and since there would be so few of them, we could make them orbit. The idea is that they seem to be distant rather than small one plot planets. And if the turns where merely 3 months long we could have them and the "slow space" (which represents distance) "skip" at each turn's end.

[snoopy369]

Is there actually interest in developing this mod for real (as opposed to blueskying about it)? If so, we can set up a subforum for it. We'd need some resources:
* Programmer - I can do SOME of this, but probably not all that is needed, in the c++ particularly
* Artist
* Someone with the actual game
* Designers (everyone is involved in this, to some extent)
* Testers (in addition to the developers)

We'd also need to know to what degree, if any, Impaler would be permitted/willing/able to help given his Firaxis commitment. (And if Firaxis had any interest in making this an officialish mod with some official support, similar to what happened at the start of Civ4 with Dale/Locutus/Isak, though they are much more talented developers than any of us I suspect, so I'd assume that is a no barring something changing).

So ... who's doing what?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Is there actually interest in developing this mod for real (as opposed to blueskying about it)?

Personally I would be very surprised if it actually happened...

But since we're blueskying...

Personally I don't think a space colonization story per se needs to assume that all Earth powers have become undemocratic to explain a willingness to secede and claim independence. It seems to me that people simply feeling they no longer share a common identity with the motherland is sufficient reason. And that's a natural evolution from the moment some people start being born in space instead of on Earth. Plus you can also think of all sorts of economic reasons. The space colonizers don't profit enough of the resource extraction or something.

Also, Heraclitus, I consider your future view of the European Union unrealistic. In order to assume there can be a European space colonizer, there needs to be a strong European political entity. I doubt this could arise in an unstable world with nuclear wars and all that. I also doubt the European Union would survive its member states becoming undemocratic.

In addition, to assume a willingness of a European organization consisting of many member states to actually suppress any revolts, I think one needs to suppose nationalistic feelings among the Earthbound Europeans, a shared identity. I doubt this can happen in the next couple generations if more and more states join the Union, and if the current Eurosceptic states remain in.

Therefore I think the most plausible scenario would be to assume that by the time of the game, the European Union has become little more than a free trade zone. However in reaction to this, several member states went ahead and formed their own stronger union, the European Federation, of which the citizens over time do form a certain common identity. Such a Federation would most likely include France, Germany, Italy and Spain, thus still providing enough economic weight to make space colonization plausible. It should not include Eurosceptic states such as the UK, Poland, Turkey or Czechia though.

[Maniac]

Also, people have been trying to get cities to move for years without success. I don't think you'll be able to succeed now either. You should set less ambitious goals you can do on your own.