ACDG5: The Wardroom

[vyeh]

This role playing and discussion thread is part of Alpha Centauri Democracy Game 5 ("ACDG5"). Demo players and SMAC players offering advice may post in this thread. Please remain in character.

Please post comments and questions on the game organization thread.

Edit: Added reference to index at the top of the message.

The initial setting: A wardroom aboard the Unity.

The characters are all Lieutenants:

Bodissey
dacole
JoeStalin
Nahkrinoth
Nims
Plan9
timsup2nothin
vyeh

The situation: Lt. timsup2nothin has been put in (temporary) charge of Unity Command's council with the clear instruction that he is only chairman of a council of equals (and not even first among equals). He, his fellow council members, three colony pods, three scout units, three unity supply droids and three unity former droids are landing on Planet in a week. All eyes turn to Lt. timsup2nothin as he calls the meeting to order ...

[timsup2nothin]

Gentlemen, (I assume, apologies to any ladies I haven't noticed, this bulky space suit stuff is a drag)

In the aftermath of mutiny and madness it falls to us to restore order to this mission. I put to you that we should stand in tolerance when possible, on the throats of the rebels when necessary, and with our feet firmly planted on pragmatic ground.

We need a volunteer to manage the logistics of our first year on the planet. Anyone who would like to step forward is welcome to do so.

Until we have a clearer picture of our proposed Planetfall, that will be all, unless someone has questions.

[vyeh]

Lieutenant Chairman,

Could we do a round of introductions? I'm Lt. vyeh.

[Bodissey]

Fellow Lieutenants, I salute you all,

I'm Lieutenant Bodissey, from the former European Plutocratic Union, perhaps I might be of assistance with the logistics.

[timsup2nothin]

Great idea Lt vyeh. I usually go by just Tim, up2nothin being a unique surname harking back to my origins in the l33t federation on old earth.

[JoeStalin]

Hello fellow Lieutenants, LT. Joe Stalin here hailing from reconstituted USSR. Looking forward to orderly domination of new planet and its inhabitants. Due to relative inexperience in democratic colonization am willing to serve in chiefly advisory role. Am more than willing to take on greater role if needed.

[vyeh]

Lt. Nims will be delayed. He is dealing with an equipment malfunction.

[timsup2nothin]

Gentlemen, (I have still seen no evidence to the contrary)

I may have to tap certain of our fellows firmly on the noggin with a nerve staple gun to get their attention. Lt Nims is exempt due to his equipment malfunction.

However, while awaiting complete introductions, I am anticipating some early scans of our likely landing site. Does anyone have any proposals or preferences about what to do with them when we get them?

For starters, I suggest that we agree that one of our colony pods should plant itself immediately to form our capital, or travel at most one square before doing so. Does anyone have any suggestions about how far the other two pods should go? Do we want to set up with no overlap in the base footprints, or try to get all three bases planted as quickly as possible and think more about spread as we expand?

Obviously terrain will have to be considered, so I'm not trying to make any hard and fast statements here, but if we are all generally on the same page we will be able to reach a faster consensus when we see the terrain. If we are way off from the same page maybe we can at least figure out who stands where and practice getting along.

For example, if someone suggests planting all three colony pods into the capital immediately I will likely not agree. I would be interested in their reasoning, and it would be good to get that discussion out of the way before we have terrain scans staring us in the face.

[vyeh]

Lt. Chairman,

I agree that anyone who does not respond to your call for advice (except for Lt. Nims who is struggling to get his personal network node operational before landing) should be nerve stapled.

The most critical element is defensibility. Each base should be no more than three squares from another base (and building roads should be the Unity former droids first assignment). We know some of the rebels are hostile. We don't know where they will be.

Lt. JoeStalin, you have a message waiting at the com center.

[Plan9]

Greetings

I am Plan9 of the Hellenic region of the European Plutocratic Republic.

The first scans of our landing site look quite interesting. I strongly support our chairman's proposed course of action of establishing our Headquarters within the first 2 mission years. More data on surrounding terrain is needed before we can discuss locations and proximity of further bases.

I can't say I like all this talk of nerve-stapling though. May I remind you that nerve stapling is an atrocity according to the charter of our mission.

[vyeh]

A slight point of clarification. Nerve stapling is an atrocity only when it is done to civilians ...

[Bodissey]

I feel I'm already nerve-stapled in my new assignment.

Apart from some numbness in the frontal lobes, I don't feel anything at all. So you shouldn't worry.

[vyeh]

Lt. Chairman,

I'm looking at the scans. While all three colony pods are in excellent positions, the western most CP is in the best position. A base founded on its position will have access to a lot of energy (our orbital scans indicate that those strange alien monoliths have strong energy signatures and the river will help). That base will also have sea access, which will greatly aid exploration. Respectfully, I propose that we establish our headquarters at the site of the westernmost CP.

[timsup2nothin]

When I was with the Peacekeeper Drop Infantry I would get nerve stapled most every day off, just for the buzz, so no whining.

[vyeh]

Lt. Chairman,

Despite what I said earlier about keeping the bases three squares apart, there is a strong case for planting all three bases immediately. Each base would be contributing to building, research, economy and population growth immediately. They all have access to the ocean (and it is possible that each base has access to ocean squares not accessible by sea to the other bases).

[timsup2nothin]

Pre-planetfall agenda:

Item one: I am strongly in favor of assigning base commanders, but would like to enact a policy of keeping the capital exempt from individual command.

Item two: Determining our initial research direction.

Item three: Agreeing on a site for the capital. This is two parts. First, determining whether the easternmost of our three pods is in the best terrain, thus should be the capital. I think that part goes quickly but I'm willing to be wrong. Second, selecting a specific tile.

Item four: Determining how much latitude we are willing to give base commanders in locating the remaining two initial bases, if any, and if not than determining exactly where we want them.

Item five: Should existing scout units be kept as garrison or used for exploration.

Items six and beyond are available and I am open to suggestion.

Please comment freely, then be prepared to vote when votes are called. I tried to keep my opinions out of the agenda and will comment as well. Please refrain from giving your opinion and immediately voting for it before you see other people's positions. We all know that you will likely support your own position in the end, but let's act as if we have open minds...it may turn out that we do.

[Bodissey]

Item one: in favor of both.

Item two: I would recommend Centaury Ecology to get formers running ASAP and, hopefully, the Weather Paradigm SP.

Item three: I wonder why we do not choose The Ruins for the capital? Four 2-2-2 tiles are not to be neglected, not counting the river. And the actual place seems fine to me.

Item four: Placement depends on our strategy, i.e. builder, hybrid or momentum. Are we to found CP cranking bases or military units factories? Once this question is answered, the base commander can select a tile accordingly to this agenda.

[vyeh]

Lt. Chairman,

Do you remember the lesson from the Academy about delegation? If everyone is responsible, then no one is responsible. When our council is pursuing a war, who will remember to keep the trains running at HQ?

I'd like to put on the table Doctrine: Mobility followed by Doctrine: Flexibility. We have a lot of sea access. More importantly are those two Unity supply pods. Those supplies could be critical to our success and must be retrieved as soon as possible.

While Lt. Bodissey has proven himself to be a hard worker, perhaps overwork has caused him to overlook the fact that we already have three Unity former droids that are runnning now.

If the colony pods establish bases immediately, the western most base will only need to terraform roads (preliminary studies suggest that we will be getting the maximum resources we can).

The next base to the east has access to one of those alien monoliths and fresh water (which our studies show will yield two nutrient units). There will be time for the former droid there to farm and solar panel some rolling land (which will give 2 nutrients, 1 mineral and 1 energy) or to forest the arid flat land it is currently on (which will give 1 nutrient, 2 minerals and 1 energy). It will be able to keep pace with the base's needs until we can research our new ecology.

The easternmost base has access to the freshwater mineral bonus (2 nutrients, 2 minerals). Again the former droid has enough time to keep pace with the base's needs.

While I agree that the western most base (near The Ruins) is in the best terrain, I respectfully suggest that the location of the capital depends on more. The capital should be defensible.

As far as establish a base at the location of the western CP's location, I think the only other viable locations are the adjacent river squares. The river square to the northeast would lose ocean access (which might be a good thing from a defensive view). The river square to the southeast would lose access to two of the alien monoliths.

I think the initial base placements need to be coordinated. If the middle colony pod is moved one square northwest or the eastern colony pod is moved one square southeast, we'd have only one square overlap and no holes in the territory covered (we have to think ahead to the time when the rebels will have regained air drop capabilities). Note that moving the middle colony pod one square northwest would remove access to the alien monolith and that moving the eastern colony pod one square southeast would remove access to the fresh water mineral bonus.

Respectfully, I believe the Lt. Chairman has forgotten the issue of exploration versus using those scouts as garrison.

[JoeStalin]

1. What makes you think the mineral bonus is in 'fresh water'? Looks to me it could very well be connected to larger salt water bodies.

2. Westmost CP looks like best spot to establish HQ. It is in best position to have water access w/o sacrificing to many squares open to attack from sea.

3. I am in favor of establishing the northernmost base where it sits immediately. sea access plus access to artifact cluster makes this look like the best site near this cp.

4. I propose moving east-most CP one square SW. LT. Stalin implores other lt's to not be seduced by the mineral bonus in the body of water to the NE. It will be many many years before said bonus could be possibly profitably exploited. A move to the SW would retain sea access to pop the supply pod in the water while also allowing access to the artifact cluster. This move would also establish a more defensible choke point on the isthmus there. This wouuld help secure our HQ. It looks likelyt hat land to the east be home to enemy forces.

5. an overriding theme here is give each cp access to our plethora of artifacts. No terraforming we can do in the near term would provide as profitable and well rounded resources each of our bases will need to thrive.

6. formers should begin planting forests ASAP. supply droids should be programmed to harvest mins for respective bases.

7. Westmost scout patrol should be moved one square West to determine nature of land form jutting out to the west. We need to see if this is a peninsula or if it's connected to a larger land.

8. Northern scout should move into fungus to its west. We must explore the northern land ASAP. Our West and North bases will not be next to any fungus and so will be slightly less vulnerable to mind worm attack.

9. East scout should move one click SE (where our base will be). this scout should garrison this base in near term. future assignments dependent on results of western and northern exploration.

10. Research should be directed to sea technology to grab those supply pods asap.

agree? disagree? why?

[vyeh]

Lt. JoeStalin, did you see your message at the com center?

Re Lt. Stalin's item 1 (why is mineral bonus in fresh water), terrain scan indicates fresh water in ocean square contiguous to mineral bonus.


Agree with Lt. Stalin's item 2 (building HQ at western CP's current location).

Re Lt. Stalin's item 3 (northern CP immediately establishes base), would like to see Lt. Stalin's reason why reduction of overlap with other two bases is not as important as worker access to monolith. Movement 1 square northwest would still have sea access.

Disagree with Lt. Stalin's analysis in item 4 (movement of eastern CP).
(a) Mineral bonus near eastern CP could be exploited immediately if base is established (nutrients = 1 ocean + 1 fresh water, minerals = 0 ocean + 2 bonus). We don't need to establish Doctrine: Flexibility for base workers to work ocean squares.
(b) The movement of any CP (unless it is western CP to adjacent river square) must be considered carefully. If it moves, it can't colonize this year. We lose a year of growth, production, research and economy. Moving eastern CP one square SW trades 2-2-0 fresh water mineral bonus for 2-2-2 monolith for a gain of 2 energy units.
(c) Defensive choke point makes sense only if we don't plan to establish a future base south of the eastern CP. Here, we're acquiring defensive position (which will be unnecessary if we establish defense in depth).
(d) Proposed move would increase overlap for a net loss of squares available to all three bases.

Disagree with emphasis in Lt. Stalin's item 5 (every base needs monolith). (a) One possible strategic avenue: Let western base grow. Use eastern base to produce colony pods. Then initially eastern base only needs one 2 nutrient square to work in its base radius (its supply droid can work monolith even if monolith is outside its base radius).
(b) Moving eastern colony pod loses a turn, which is a lost of 4 nutrients, 3 minerals, and 1 laboratory point. If it moves to propose square, you gain one laboratory point and one energy credit per turn (assuming no efficiency lost). Previous calculation doesn't include supply droid. In current position, supply droid could crawl monolith while base works fresh water mineral bonus. In proposed position, base would work monolith, but crawler would have to wait until former planted forest.

Partially agree with Lt. Stalin's item 6 (formers plant forests ASAP)
(a) I agree that northern base and eastern base formers should plant forests. I'd prefer they build roads in squares before they plant forests, although I can see an argument for getting a 2 mineral square to crawl 1 turn earlier at the cost of an extra turn to build a road in a forest.

(b) Disagree with using western former droid to build forest. More important to create interior lines of communication than forest (supply droid can harvest alien monolith initially -- there are four alien monoliths and only three bases).

(c) Western base former should build roads (clearing fungus where necessary) to create interior line of defense.

A general comment about moving scouts (Lt. Stalin's items 7-9): There is some indication that a visit to alien monoliths can improve the ability of combat units to deal with aliens. Maybe scouts should make a visit before undertaking exploratory or defensive duties.

Agree with Lt. Stalin's item 7 (move western scout one square west). Additional reason: if western CP establishes base at current location or 1 square SE, scout's movement will explore area within base radius.

Slightly confused about Lt. Stalin's item 8 (moving northern scout west), which seems to argue against itself. It says we need to explore fungus, but the base near the fungus is slightly less vulnerable to mindworm attack. Pro: (after upgrading scout) scout will gain valuable combat experience. Con: Movement in fungus is slow. If scout goes into the center of fungus, no way to predict when scout will return.

Agree with Lt. Stalin's item 9 (move eastern scout 1 square SE), but think scout should at least explore squares within base radius before being used for garrison duty.

Agree with Lt. Stalin's item 10 (research directed toward Doctrine: Flexibility). Additional reason: Doctrine: Mobility, the prerequisite for Doctrine: Flexibility will allow scout rovers. Important to explore, claim territory, build rover combat units, make contact with other factions.

[timsup2nothin]

Oooooookay....

I have clearly left a few things off the agenda. I will go back and edit that rather than put a new agenda here so the discussion can be easily located by starting from the agenda.

While I enjoy the freewheeling nature of group discussions, I would like to set some precedents that will make it easier for my successors. If you could keep your comments a little bit formatted it will make it a lot easier to figure out when we are at a consensus or need to just vote and be done with something.

So...

Item one: My opinion slipped into the agenda already, but not my reasoning. I just think that the capital is very likely to be our major 'power base', at least for a while, meaning that it will be our best bet for projects, etc. It might also have fast growth, leading to drone issues long before other bases and their commanders have to deal with them. I agree that having every detail of base operation go through a vote would be silly, but I think the capital is not 'just a base' and should be handled differently. Assigning it to the faction leader, to the Logistical Analyst, or on a rotating basis are options.

Item two: I have no opinion that I would call worth arguing for.

Item three: I suggest everyone look at both images, the terrain is a lot easier to see on the one with no units.

Back at the capital as the early 'power base' I lean heavily towards the west pod (yes, I will edit the agenda where I said east for no apparent reason) near the ruins being the capital. If we are going to compete for the early secret projects that is our best bet. I also favor getting all three bases up and running as quickly as possible, so the capital, in my opinion, must be established on turn one.

That doesn't limit us to the square it is on though, because it is already on the river. I would move one square upriver, then set the base. I don't foresee using the capital as the early center of seagoing exploration, so I can do without the coastal access...and I can really do without the capital being exposed to the coastal risks in the long term.

I am very inclined to 'safety first', as Lt Vyeh said earlier that he favored. Another security aspect is that by moving one square upriver we are three squares away from both our other pods initial sites. Which brings us to item four...

Item four: I think we need to get these two bases running ASAP, so we can't turn them over to the base commanders until they are planted. I know I wouldn't take one and wander off, and I'm sure Maniac wouldn't either, but...truthfully, I think if the capital pod moves as I suggested both of our other pods are ideally located and can also be set on turn one.

Item five: Both are great, both are vital...unfortunate that there is one, or the other. I have no argument either way.

To possibly be added to the agenda; capital base initial production priority.

[Nims]

Lt. Nims reporting for Duty. Equipment Malfunction sorted out and personal Network Node up and running again.

[vyeh]

Item 3: Note water near west CP is NOT fresh, while water near north CP and east CP is fresh. Moving west CP upriver may lose immediate access to that water and certainly immediate access to the supply pod. Also moving west CP moves it next to fungus, which makes it more vulnerable to mindworm attack.

Item 5: Newly established bases get 10 minerals, so they can insta-build scouts. So original and independent scouts can explore without leaving base unprotected. Issue is whether 10 minerals is more productive elsewhere. At this point, bases can build scout or colony pod or stockpile energy. If eastern CP works 2-2-0 freshwater mineral bonus and crawls 1 nutrient, it will have surplus of 3 nutrients and can grow one pop point in 7 turns. It will generate 3 mins per turn and can grow CP in 10 turns. You might be able to generate CP and pop growth in 8 or 9 turns by switching crawler from nutrient to mineral at some point (note forest can produce 2 mins), but I'll leave the calculation to the base governor. So CP is viable option. Stockpile energy will convert 3 mins to 2 energy credits. And the 10 minerals will be held over until we have another use for them.

[timsup2nothin]

Item 3: Yes, moving upriver takes the capital away from the sea. That would call for deploying our first expansion CP as a seaport. I think that devoting that base to exploring and exploiting the sea will serve us better than having ocean issues conflict with other prioritied that the capital can uniquely address. Again, with the ruins the capital will be our bestbet for competing on projects. Do we want all ocean exploration/exploitation to stop whenever we're working on a project?

[timsup2nothin]

Welcome LT Nims!

[vyeh]

With first expansion CP as seaport, I can support the Lt. Chairman's last proposal, which includes location of capital one river square upstream. Might I suggest we vote on a combined Items 3, 4 & 5 proposal?

Item 3: Move west CP one square upriver and build HQ base first turn per Lt. Chairman's proposal. HQ builds scout that will be sent to eastern base, to relieve eastern scout from garrison duty.

Item 4: North and east CPs build bases immediately per Lt. Chairman's proposal. Eastern base immediately starts work on CP, which will establish seaport on south sea.

Item 5: Scouts initially garrison, but explore the immediate neighborhood as soon as possible. After eastern scout is relieved by scout produced by HQ in Item 3, eastern scout explores potential sites for first expansion base. Tell HQ governor that western scout will leave HQ after third turn to explore the west per Lt. Stalin's proposal. Tell northern governor that northern scout will leave north base next turn to explore fungus per Lt. Stalin's proposal.

Then only discussion and vote on item 2 remains for the first year.

[timsup2nothin]

Gentlemen,

My biggest problem so far as faction leader is that I don't want to present a 'here is a plan, yes or no vote please, with no time to come up with another plan if the vote is no. We should hit the planet with a plan that we can all support rather than a plan that everyone goes along with because it's all we have. So I am inclined to present at least two options when Icall for a vote.

They are not 'all inclusive' options. They address capital and base placement ONLY. Each option would have a different influence on what we then decide to do about scouting, production, and deployment of existing units.

There is a matrix of choices determined by three questions.

Question 1 is: which capital? Please vote east, west, or north.

Question 2 is: west pod? Please vote as is, upriver, downriver or off river. *note: a vote of 'off river' is not compatible with a 'west' capital vote.

Question 3 is: east pod? Please vote as is, or move SW. *note: a vote of 'move SW is not compatible with an east capital vote.

Please vote in this thread.

[vyeh]

I've voted in the Voting Booth.

Note my vote is contingent on creation of seaport giving access to supply pod near west pod ASAP. Making west CP non seaport is only better than west CP being seaport if there is alternate seaport established near supply pod before Doctrine: Flexibility is discovered.

[timsup2nothin]

Lt Vyeh, it will be much easier to produce clear options to subsequent questions if we can have this one settled. I promise my personal support for at least one immediate CP build, and for the first expansion base being a port. Your arguments are compelling, my support is promised. Please amend your vote so it is not conditional just in case it remains the swing vote.

[vyeh]

Obviously, you're implying that the expansion base will have access to the supply pod near the western colony pod.

I've amended my vote.