Playing again after long break

[Azuarc]

I played Civ IV vanilla for a while when it came out, but I recently bought the two expansions and am trying to adjust to using the new stuff. I have a few questions, which aren't explicitly answered with the in-game materials. I'd do a search for this info, but it looks like all forum threads before April have been removed.

1) Great Generals and Great Spies -- how are they best used normally? I haven't even tried doing the "enhance the unit stack" thing with the GG, and the spy just seems like it adds a bunch of espionage against one civ, which leads me to...

2) Is playing for espionage actually good? Can you get hamstrung by ignoring it? It seems like sometimes I eventually get knowledge of opposing tech development incidentally, but not much more without pursuing it. Spies just seem to die and there is definitely the appearance that spy operations are very expensive. Should I try to focus on one civ to spy on? Also, are there reasonable ways to snuff out spies? -- seems like I'm always getting "a spy was discovered" messages.

3) I'm a notorious restarter, so I haven't gotten a chance to even try them yet. The game materials bill corporations as modern-day religions to an extent. Are they crucial to late-game success?


I have a ton of other questions I could ask, but they'd take a lot of set-up and explanation since there is no best way to play the game. But some insight into those, especially how to manage espionage, would be a great help.

Apologies for asking a semi-newbie type thread in general, but it doesn't look like the University forum gets used any more.

[Zero]

im on the same boat here. I made a post about civ4 -> Bts stuff a week or so ago. that might help.

1) i personally like adding Great general to my military city.

[Krill]

GG -> city, gives greatest total contribution by giving lots of XP over the course of hte game, especailly if added to the heroic epic city. If added to one units can make an uber unit that the AI will almost never attack (ie CD4 Drill 3 unit in front city meaning that you can take out an entire army with that one unit.) Situational use, if you know you won;t get attacked add it to HE city.

GS, there are strats, tech based, entirely on stealing techs, instead of researching. I personlly don't like to use them (because the Ai never does it, I view it as exploitive to do so), though there are posts on CFC that explain how to do it.

Corps are not a necessity, though they do add flavour if going for a Space/Diplo win in the late game. If you want to crush the AI under your steel boots, then they are just something that you won't really need.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Azuarc
but it looks like all forum threads before April have been removed.

The default only goes back 10 days. Change to 1 month, 3 months, the beginning, etc. to find older discussion threads.
(Actually don't use 'the beginning', as this used to be the old Civ2-General forum and you'll find those instead. They're ancient.)

1) Great Generals and Great Spies -- how are they best used normally? I haven't even tried doing the "enhance the unit stack" thing with the GG, and the spy just seems like it adds a bunch of espionage against one civ, which leads me to...

Generals are good for a few things: Instructors in a city, which will add +2 EXP to each new unit built there. Add those up and you can have +8/10/12 EXP on new units!
Build Academy: +50% hammers to new units. Comes fairly late in the game, tho.
Attach to SINGLE unit: This gives that 1 unit all +20 EXP and allows for capabilities that normal units don't get. Most players build a Medic III scout/explorer (low strength unit in a stack so it doesn't get attacked/die). Make certain the unit you attach it to has at least 6 EXP already so it qualifies as a level 6 unit- needed to build West Point later in game.

2) Is playing for espionage actually good? Can you get hamstrung by ignoring it? It seems like sometimes I eventually get knowledge of opposing tech development incidentally, but not much more without pursuing it. Spies just seem to die and there is definitely the appearance that spy operations are very expensive. Should I try to focus on one civ to spy on? Also, are there reasonable ways to snuff out spies? -- seems like I'm always getting "a spy was discovered" messages.

AI spies are easy to ignore. Rarely do they do anything permanently damaging. But Great Spies can be VERY useful early game. I my current game (in the other thread) I got a GSpy very early and sent him into my neighbor's land, netting 6000 ESP points. After Alphabet those points+ some others and a few regular spies got me 6 free techs, plus the ones I traded those techs for.

3) I'm a notorious restarter, so I haven't gotten a chance to even try them yet. The game materials bill corporations as modern-day religions to an extent. Are they crucial to late-game success?

Crucial? No. Helpful? Very. Certain ones (Sid's Sushi and Mining, Inc.) are more powerful than others. Those 2 can add +10 food and +10 hammers to a city.

[Hauptman]

Theben just said anything I would have.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Azuarc
...and there is definitely the appearance that spy operations are very expensive.

That's a common misconception, one that I had as well. Spy missions don't cost you any gold, only Espionage Points. As the game progresses, you build up a certain amount with each civ and you can use those points to conduct your missions. You need to convert some of your commerce into Espionage Points, but they don't cost anything directly. And they don't necessarily require you to spend alot of your commerce to get them, buildings such as the Courthouse will give them to you. I typically devote only 10% of my budget towards espionage and I usually end up with a surplus with most of the civs.

[Virulent]

Just to chime in on the corporations. You could just use State Property and ignore them, but I find them more than worth the effort to found and spread. I actually recommend holding on to a great person or two (especially a Great Merchant) just so you can establish corps as soon as they become available.

[jkp1187]

To join what was said earlier, personally I like to add Great Generals to cities with an eye toward creating one great military city that will be pumping out level 4 tanks and battleships at the end of the game....I have one caveat: if you are in a position where you don't think you'll be fighting many wars, you may want to add your first Great General to a good strong defensive unit, and carefully husband promotions for that unit so that you can qualify to build Heroic Epic and West Point when those become available.

It can also be helpful in certain circumstances to give a GG to a unit in a stack that has been battered by enemy attack -- that way the XP are spread among several units, and you may get some promotions out of it.

[The Priest]

My idots guide to espionage is:

1. Never use the EP slider - it just isn't worth it. Just let them be produced naturally by your buildings.

2. Make sure you focus your EP on two or three neighbours at any one time. When they have been destroyed or are no threat, move them to others.

3. Don't worry about the succession of spy-attacks on your territories. Its very frustrating and can easily provoke you to foolish action, but in fact the effect of the enemy spies is very limited.

4. Use your own spies to bring down city walls when attacking ('cause revolt'). Its extremely powerful, far beyond the other options.

Yes there are exceptions but IMHO these four would get you a long way.

[wodan11]

2a. Never focus your EP on an AI who does not have any cities on your landmass.

Wodan

[Willem]

Well I'd have to disgree with both 2a and the original 2 a couple of posts above. It's very useful having enough EP points against a distant civ to be able to at least see what tech they're researching. And being able to see into their cities and get an idea of their troop composition is useful knowledge when you're trying to figure out who to attack next. Though you should certainly put more points into your nearest neighbours, you shouldn't neglect your more distant ones either.

[Theben]

2nd what Willem said. The passive missions of espionage are probably its greatest use. To see cities, to see what they are building, and to see what they are researching.

[wodan11]

Sure, it's "useful". Worth the cost? No way.

Wodan

[Theben]

I disagree. A 10% slider is all it takes. About 1-2 extra turns of research, and you know where to direct yours.

[Krill]

Or kill someone early and prioritise courthouses in thoses cities and newly built citiesin their land; you get cheaper mainentence costs AND more espionage points on your rivals, forcing them to run the espionage slider. Then you can just out tech and kill them as the AI can't compete with you in both espionage and tech.

(And hence espionage is broken /broken record)

[Seedle]

I agree with Willem and Theben, seeing what every opponent is researching is key. Though I do usually use Krills method to get the espionage, I will devote 10% slider if necessary. Knowing whether you need to break your rifling beeline to get economics, knowing whether you need to get Liberalism now or can wait for more expensive tech to grab with it, knowing who has (tech for wonder) and can thus build that wonder, knowing whether you need to take the hit to research that is Sci Method to get Physics or whether you can continue to avoid it, knowing how close the guy you are thinking about attacking is to flight, the advantages are many and well worth the cost.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Krill
Or kill someone early and prioritise courthouses in thoses cities and newly built citiesin their land; then quit and restart since you're going to win at this point anyways.

fixed.

[Krill]

Not necesarily. Under quite a few circumstances an AI can out tech you if you piss about long enough building up for the war and rebuilding your economy after it and kill another AI later so it ends as a stalemate but the AI has better units. Or an AI could attack you as you are rebuilding; you should be able to fight it off, or it could attack as you are attacking leading to a two front war where the player can't kill either but can hold off both, letting the builder AI plough ahead in the tech race.

[The Priest]

Well, one of the fun aspects of Civ Forums is you never know what bit of what you say others are going to disagree with!

In my experience if you have ten or so AI's out there, if you try to build EP against them all you are never going to have enough for anything worthwhile, unless either (a) you are sufficiently huge you have probably won anyway or (b) you use the slider.

Some people use the slider. Fair enough. Never thought it worthwhile myself - maybe I will have a play with it - but it seems a huge cost just to know stuff which migth be nice to know but isn't normally going to change much.

Interesting point though about being able to see who is researching the techs which give a bonus to the first founder - I can see the value in that.

It probably comes down to what you like to spend EP on. I am adicted to bringing down city walls - its the secret to quick, and therefore successful, wars. If you want to do that to two or three cities you have to focus your EP. If the main thing you are after is passive intelligence though, maybe that is different

[jkp1187]

Originally posted by Theben


fixed.

QFT!

[MoonWolf]

I have some comment on the Great Generals. The first one, I normally give to an already strong unit. This can either be a city buster or an allround unit with lot of combat and/ or drill promotions. The second I either use to create a lvl 3 medic (lately, I've been trying to get lvl 3 woodsman for that unit as well cause of the 15% healing bonus) or I settle it in my main military city. I normally don't do too much warfare untill mid/ late game meaing I will really not pump out super units untill I have West Point and the Pentagon. If I'm lucky, my land based units will have 17XP out of the box. Sometimes, when the units produced comes with >10XP, I use the remaining generals for making superunits.

BTW, when you have destroyers (and the enemy hasn't), assign a general to a destroyer, give it morale (2x XP) and blitz, and have fun! You can really harvest XPs and get a really powerful warship.

[jkp1187]

Originally posted by MoonWolf
I have some comment on the Great Generals. The first one, I normally give to an already strong unit. This can either be a city buster or an allround unit with lot of combat and/ or drill promotions. The second I either use to create a lvl 3 medic (lately, I've been trying to get lvl 3 woodsman for that unit as well cause of the 15% healing bonus) or I settle it in my main military city. I normally don't do too much warfare untill mid/ late game meaing I will really not pump out super units untill I have West Point and the Pentagon. If I'm lucky, my land based units will have 17XP out of the box. Sometimes, when the units produced comes with >10XP, I use the remaining generals for making superunits.

BTW, when you have destroyers (and the enemy hasn't), assign a general to a destroyer, give it morale (2x XP) and blitz, and have fun! You can really harvest XPs and get a really powerful warship.

Better yet, attach the Great General to a privateer or frigate, and get an uber naval unit that gets a free promotion to destroyer later on.

[MoonWolf]

Originally posted by jkp1187


Better yet, attach the Great General to a privateer or frigate, and get an uber naval unit that gets a free promotion to destroyer later on.

Also possible, but when I get destroyers, the AI still have a huge fleet of wood and canvas wich mean I can get the XPs very easy without risking my über ship.

But giving it to a privateer could be fun though, especially if you have enough of them as canon fodder in case you get attacked.

[Azuarc]

Thanks for the replies, folks. Also read zero's thread, but obviously this dealt more with my own concerns.

Now if I can just figure out how to pick my strategies...

[Blaupanzer]

Azuac, welcome back!

[Supr49er]

Originally posted by jkp1187


Better yet, attach the Great General to a privateer or frigate, and get an uber naval unit that gets a free promotion to destroyer later on.

A GG Frigate upgraded to a Battleship is great fun.

[wodan11]

I played one game where I was on a semi-smallish continent with 2 AIs. I took them out early and had it all to myself. What to do but beeline privateers and send out in wholesale job lots.

Before I could turn around I had NINE GG privateers, which in short order were upgraded.

That game was a blast.

Wodan