Attaching Great General to Siege Weapons

[Fistleaf]

This seems to be one of the better ways to make use of the Great General.
1. One of the negative aspects of attaching Great General is the unit still dies easily unlike the Army of Civ3. By attaching the General to siege, you still get a unit which is useful for bombardment and it won't die if it just bombards. This unit can probably survive forever.
2. You can promote the unit to Medic3 and since this unit is not going for a straight fight anyway, it can just tag along with the main force to do healing and bombardment.
3. You can promote the unit with Morale, making it a 2-move siege unit, which is useful for first turn move-and-bombard. Combined with Medic3, it becomes a 2-move medic.
4. The unit can still gain XP slowly if you use it as the last attacker of a weakened unit.

[dregor]

I still prefer attaching them to my scouts/explorers, at least if I want them to be super medics. They're guaranteed to be attacked last in a stack giving them the best chance of surviving unless you're up against a far, far superior foe. In that case you deserve to lose it.

If I were using my general to make an offensive unit then I can see siege being a plausible choice. Only thing is I probably never would -- much better to use him to make a military academy or settle him in my unit pump city.

[Supr49er]

I also create "Great Scouts" for super medics in my stacks. Siege units can be destroyed too easily, even attacking a wounded unit. My siege units get Accuracy and Barrage promotions.

[Tattila the Hun]

Eh, I just plop out a few regular medics in the pawed barbarians era, and hope they stay alive long enough for the basic promotions. Usually they do.

[Fleme]

Your Great Medic really needs to be a "regular" unit if you really wish for him to become "Great", meaning that he'll have both Medic III and Woodsman III, and I atleast like to aim for that since it makes my stacks fully heal from any damage in one turn or at most, two.

Losing them is a huge ***** though.

[Theben]

I usually drop my Generals in my "Heroic Epic" city, so I can churn out tons of experienced units at the drop of a hat.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by Theben
I usually drop my Generals in my "Heroic Epic" city, so I can churn out tons of experienced units at the drop of a hat.

Yes, but for me, that usually requires using the first GG to get the level whatever unit which unlocks the HE.

[Supr49er]

Originally posted by DirtyMartini


Yes, but for me, that usually requires using the first GG to get the level whatever unit which unlocks the HE.

Level 6.

[Asmodeous]

Level 6 is WP.

Level 3 is HE.

Me.

[snoopy369]

BtS makes this less of a good strategy, due to flank attacks, however...

[wodan11]

Good point Snoopy

Wodan

[Fistleaf]

True that flank attacks are a weakness for siege, but the siege is supposed to travel with escorts if you want it to survive, so unless there are too few strong escorts to kill off the cavalry or there are simply too many cavalry to defeat, it is unlikely for the siege to be destroyed. Another thing is that the flank attacks usually only work for a specified siege unit (like trebuchet for knights, cannons for cavalry IIRC), you can time the free upgrade based on the type of prevailing mounted unit.

Great scouts appear to be a waste of the 20XP, since that unit can't fight and will not be useful for anything once the entire world is explored.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Fistleaf
Great scouts appear to be a waste of the 20XP, since that unit can't fight and will not be useful for anything once the entire world is explored.

The fact that they will usually be the last unit in a stack attacked is what makes them useful... they will usually survive, unless the whole stack is wiped out

I used to use scout healers, but now I use melee units as healers. I make sure there are stronger melee units in the stack to absorb attacks. I can use the healer to take out badly weakened units, evenutally getting them some more promotions. If they die defending, the stack is probably in serious trouble anyway

[DirtyMartini]

[SIZE=1]
Great scouts appear to be a waste of the 20XP, since that unit can't fight and will not be useful for anything once the entire world is explored.

Nope. They make the best Medic III units. This is cannot be debated.

1. They absolutely defend last, so they are least likely to die.

2. They have 2 moves, so they can catch up to an advancing stack, or shuttle between stacks safely.

3. If charismatic, you can add morale (?) to the mix to get 3 moves.

4. They *cannot* attack, so you're never tempted to go for that 90% odds attack that winds up losing you the unit.

5. They upgrade to another weak unit (explorer), so you never accidentally (free) upgrade them to a unit which would enter into the defense mix. To illustrate: when using medic chariots, I sometimes accidentally upgrade my medic chariot to a knight. Now the medic is strong enough that it may defend in the routine course of battle. This is bad. That never happens with scouts -- even if it did you'd just end up with an explorer -- still unlikely to defend.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by DirtyMartini


Nope. They make the best Medic III units. This is cannot be debated.

Sure it can.

1. They absolutely defend last, so they are least likely to die.

Untrue. For example, a wounded unit will often defend later. And, once you upgrade the scout to explorer, the warrior (or chariot or whatever) will continue to defend later (whether wounded or not).

2. They have 2 moves, so they can catch up to an advancing stack, or shuttle between stacks safely.

So do Chariots or any of a number of other possibilities.

3. If charismatic, you can add morale (?) to the mix to get 3 moves.

This applies to some of the other options as well.

4. They *cannot* attack, so you're never tempted to go for that 90% odds attack that winds up losing you the unit.

That's a self-discipline concern. If you fear this, then simply don't attack. If you don't fear this, and would prefer to have the option to increase and get other promotions, then go for it. Entirely a choice each person can make for themselves.

5. They upgrade to another weak unit (explorer), so you never accidentally (free) upgrade them to a unit which would enter into the defense mix.

Again, a self-discipline concern.

Wodan

[Fleme]

I always attach my general to my first Axe / Mace with Medic and will use him for war as long as it takes for him to get Woodsman III to go with his Medic III. Scouts, Cavalry and Artillery make inferior medics with that in mind. (Sure, you could work around this by getting a regular unit to Woodsman III without it being general but where's the fun in that? )

[Theben]

Originally posted by DirtyMartini

Yes, but for me, that usually requires using the first GG to get the level whatever unit which unlocks the HE.

I prefer pounding on barbs for that, or the 1st civ that is dumb enough to attack me. By the time Literature is discovered, I have one or more lvl 3 units.

[rah]

I used to attach a general or two to a siege unit to get the mobility to march with a mobile strike force, but with flanking, I've stopped doing that since they're so vulnerable now.

[East Street Trader]

Well it seems I use GGs differently from most.

I am generally involved in multiple wars from as soon as I locate other civs onwards and I have no trouble having units with numerous promotions. I also get several GGs while still fighting with swordsmen, axe men and macemen. I find the GGs invaluable for creating units that can take out units fortified in cities without the need first to use a whole heap of catapults to reduce the defences and damage the defenders.

For me that is much more important than getting the long term benefits from using the early GGs as super specialists. I reckon to cripple or eliminate all my close rivals so, as far as those particular enemies go at least, there simply isn't going to be a long term to worry about.

But maybe I'll try the alternative approach which others seem to take. Conceivably the time taken (and economic cost) to build all those catapults is made up for by the ability to churn out higher trained units later.

I can't really see using the GG to promote a bombard unit. But again, I suppose experience might conceivably change my view. Next time I fail to get an early warrior to woodsman 3 I'll maybe try this idea. But if I have such a warrior I love to promote it with a GG. The free up dates represent a substantial benefit on the side of using GGs to promote units and a warrior represents the very best unit to get full value out of that benefit.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by wodan11

Sure it can.

I guess you can debate it, but you can't debate it successfully.

Untrue. For example, a wounded unit will often defend later. And, once you upgrade the scout to explorer, the warrior (or chariot or whatever) will continue to defend later (whether wounded or not).

OK, lets make it -- it defends last in a reasonably healthy stack. I'm also thinking about longevity here. -- Sure, there may be a time when your scout will defend an injured chariot/archer stack, but as your other units get better, that's unlikely. Even massively damaged riflemen are going to defend before the scout.

So do Chariots or any of a number of other possibilities.

that's why a chariot is my second choice.

That's a self-discipline concern. If you fear this, then simply don't attack. If you don't fear this, and would prefer to have the option to increase and get other promotions, then go for it. Entirely a choice each person can make for themselves.

The easiest way to exercise self-discipline is to completely eliminate the temptation. I find that I too often risk my medic if the option is available. If you have more self discipline, that's great. Also, other promotions beyond medic III are superfluous (except morale). You could argue for first strikes or woodsman III, but I just think that makes you more vulnerable in the long run than if your little scout just hides behind all the other big tough units. Plus, to get those extra promotions, you have to survive many battles -- you're going to lose one eventually. Just take the temptation off the table.

Again, a self-discipline concern.

No, an I-play-too-fast-and-in-too-many-short-sessions concern. All it takes is one group upgrade that accidentally includes your chariot and you've got that nice juicy medic knight that's going to die.



If you like chariots, that's cool, but I don't see any benefit in having your medic be slightly stronger and upgradeable if the goal is to have it remain weak and never defend. People have talked about using melee units and going for woodsman III -- I hadn't really considered that. I can see how it would be appealing, but now you've got to stay in the forest -- not good for later wars.

[mrp]

I don't use medics I use cities to rest up as for the great general they go into a city that produces well

[Chemical Ollie]

So far, I have not discovered the benefits of attaching a GG to a unit. I tried it a few times, but have failed to see what good it does.

I use them for military academies and specialists instead. One GG in a city does wonders, as you can promote all new units twice (with barracks). But to get 3 promotions, you need the right civics combined with 3-4 GGs, so I tend to spread out the GGs in several cities to get two promotions in each.

[wodan11]

Settled GG's also give 3 beakers under Representation... not too shabby.

Wodan

[absimiliard]

Woodsman III doesn't have to be on the Medic III unit.

Why go for a combo, get a Scout to Medic III and anyone else to Woodsman III. Voila, all done.

-abs

[Fistleaf]

Originally posted by absimiliard
Woodsman III doesn't have to be on the Medic III unit.

Why go for a combo, get a Scout to Medic III and anyone else to Woodsman III. Voila, all done.

-abs

Only the best healer unit's bonus will be taken into account for a stack. So if you have separate units for Woodsman III and Medic III, only the Medic III unit's bonus will take effect.

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Theben
I usually drop my Generals in my "Heroic Epic" city, so I can churn out tons of experienced units at the drop of a hat.

Same here.

You can produce some very powerful units this way.