BtS unofficial patch

[alva]

The game wasn't tested worth a damn. You'll also notice espionage is broken on marathon, as well as the AIs many other glaring faults (does not defend coastal cities enough, parks stacks in your territory without pillaging, spams corporations mindlessly, etc). Also, the scenario AI is lacking in final frontier and there are several bugs in at least two other scenarios I played.

The blame goes to Firaxis, obviously, for relying on fans to make the whole game and test it for them. Blake codes the AI, fans make 4 scenarios, Solver reinvents the air combat, fans make the ethnic units...Firaxis is just lazy. Maybe a patch will come sometime soon.

I started reading your post and even before finishing the first sentence I had a feeling it would be you, so I looked to the left and whaddya know....
So reassuring to know that there are some things in life one can count on.

[Wiglaf]

This is a much more solid release than the original Civ 4 and Warlords, I think. But, yeah, obviously **** snuck in there. The key is what they do about addressing the issues once they've been pointed out. The only time I'm willing to get all pissy about it is when, several months out, these issues haven't been addressed or they try to pull some, "Its not a bug but a feature" nonsense.

The people who make Rome Total War and its sequel do that. Firaxis at least has the integrity to release regular and comprehensive updates..

[Dale]

Originally posted by LordGek


Color me confused, Dale, is this the problem or the fix you've made to a problem? Furthermore is this just something in RtW or the main game as well?

This is my fix to a crash bug (extremely rare, but I saw it twice in a game). I traced it to occur when a stack of fighters intercepted and were all killed. Whilst the units were all killed the "group" was not, and then during that AI's turn it tried to select that group. Being NULL it CTD's.

I've put it into RtW AOP1, so I doubt it's in anything else.

[Solver]

Dale, you better give me some AI coding lessons. Together with Blake

[Wiglaf]

And Firaxis. Oh, no wait. Can anyone there program an AI, or are they just too disinterested to try these days?

[LordGek]

Originally posted by Dale


This is my fix to a crash bug (extremely rare, but I saw it twice in a game). I traced it to occur when a stack of fighters intercepted and were all killed. Whilst the units were all killed the "group" was not, and then during that AI's turn it tried to select that group. Being NULL it CTD's.

I've put it into RtW AOP1, so I doubt it's in anything else.

Well, yeah, duh, the fix will only be where YOU put it but is this bug in the main game as well?

[Wiglaf]

Originally posted by alva
I started reading your post and even before finishing the first sentence I had a feeling it would be you, so I looked to the left and whaddya know....
So reassuring to know that there are some things in life one can count on.

Better to read my assessment than a tester's review that says everything's peachy.

[Dale]

Originally posted by LordGek


Well, yeah, duh, the fix will only be where YOU put it but is this bug in the main game as well?

Yes.

[LordGek]

Originally posted by Wiglaf


Better to read my assessment than a tester's review that says everything's peachy.

Nobody says Firaxis should get a free pass to leave us with a "broken" game (again pretty solid but there is ALWAYS room for improvement), but, Geez, Wiglaf, give them a farking chance to address stuff. If you want a SOLID patch they'll need to test it, right? This shoot doesn't happen over night.

As I see it v3.02 was the quick and dirty emergency patch and this next one can be the one they take some time to really take care of all of the known issues.

Also, Wiglaf, next time if you want a SOLID game, especially with a strategy game as complex as the Civ series, wait until after at least the first two patches. If you aren't willing to wait until then its YOUR problem, isn't it?

[Wiglaf]

No, I was sold a game, not a beta.

It would take months to fix all of BTS' problems, and given how even testers like Solver are in denial ("corporation AI is super!") and how long it took BetterAI to be made by Blake (who, by the way, is only one person), many fundamental problems will probably never be fixed.

[Gyathaar]

Perhaps add the crash fix code from this thread into the DLL too?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232492

[Solver]

Gyathaar

That's quite a few crash fixes you are responsible for

[Bhruic]

Any chance of getting the modified source for those of us who've already modified the dll?

Bh

[Solver]

Yes, that's coming soon.

[Solver]

Updated

Download still in first post. Added three crash fixes.

* "Dead unitgroup walking" crash fix as per Dale
* No-conscript colony crash fix as per Gyathaar
* Another colony crash fix as per myself

Modified source files included.

[Bhruic]

Very nice, thanks!

Bh

[Dale]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
No, I was sold a game, not a beta.

It would take months to fix all of BTS' problems, and given how even testers like Solver are in denial ("corporation AI is super!") and how long it took BetterAI to be made by Blake (who, by the way, is only one person), many fundamental problems will probably never be fixed.

Instead of *****ing about it, why not give me/Solver/Blake saves and examples of problems so we can look at them for you.

Aside from the marathon bugs in espionage and inflation (which we all know about already) what else is buggy for you?

Oh, and next time YOU write/participate in a computer game's development I'll make sure to flame the whole game just because of some small bugs.

[=DrJambo=]

Originally posted by Solver
Updated

Download still in first post. Added three crash fixes.

* "Dead unitgroup walking" crash fix as per Dale
* No-conscript colony crash fix as per Gyathaar
* Another colony crash fix as per myself

Modified source files included.

Where do all the 'Cv...' text files go?

[Solver]

They belong in the CvGameCoreDLL folder (the SDK), but if you aren't a coder, you don't need them.

[=DrJambo=]

So you just need the dll ? Cool. I know to put that in my Custom Assets folder.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
So you just need the dll ? Cool. I know to put that in my Custom Assets folder.

The update to Warlords included in BtS specifically states it no longer recognizes a CustomAssets dll file.
I would think that this would also apply to BtS, so it may be better to just back up the original dll, or use the modded dll as a mod.

[Michlo]

Originally posted by Solver
Here's a minor update to the BtS AI, just download the DLL file and put it where appropriate.

Thanks for this but could you please be a tad more specific as to where to put these beyond "where appropriate" ? We're not all programmers. :P


Edit: Ok, I think I found them. The core DLL stands by itself in assets and then the rest go into the core folder and all of this under BTS, right?

[vilemerchant]

Originally posted by Dale


Instead of *****ing about it, why not give me/Solver/Blake saves and examples of problems so we can look at them for you.

Aside from the marathon bugs in espionage and inflation (which we all know about already) what else is buggy for you?

I would take it you guys are already aware of the problem regarding invading AI stacks stopping and doing nothing for 500 years?

[tsubame]

question, would these adds mess up MP games?

[Wiglaf]

Originally posted by Dale


Instead of *****ing about it, why not give me/Solver/Blake saves and examples of problems so we can look at them for you.

Aside from the marathon bugs in espionage and inflation (which we all know about already) what else is buggy for you?

Oh, and next time YOU write/participate in a computer game's development I'll make sure to flame the whole game just because of some small bugs.

I didn't flame the whole game. I said the testing was poor and the AI design has glaring flaws. Seriously, they jump out at me after 4 games that took about 10 hours to play. How can they not have been an issue in testing? Anyway, aside from espionage not working in marathon:

-corporation AI spams corporations
-AIs don't defend coastal cities..even if I have a stack of carriers, destroys, and loaded transports sitting right offshore for 10 turns during war
-AIs take your coastal cities but only occupy them with a minimal force; better to raze the city. as is, they can easily be recaptured by troops from the mainland
-stacks sit idle in territory indefinitely when they should be attacking or pillaging
-espionage missions like spread culture are useless
-apostolic palace is too random (design flaw)
-Scenario AI in final frontier does not understand the new game rules
-AI loves destroying improvements with espionage, which is an awful waste when it targets a farm or two. better to focus on stealing techs or poisoning water
-exploration is often bugged; AI scouts go back and forth, friendly scouts do the same
-AI never uses privateers
-Privateer sound bug : sound of privateer pillaging is ridiculously loud when multiple privateers are blockading
-events: some events are bugged; they ask you to do the impossible, eg build () stables without providing a number to build
-some quests like holy mountain can be won accidentally if the mountain is just outside your borders
-random event spam appears in the message log every turn. do i care that the dutch know how to plant apples across the world? maybe if **** like that didn't happen 20 times every turn, and it is usually trivial

these just off the top of my head..the two most serious are that the AI just doesn't use corporations or espionage well, and these are BTS' two main feature additions.

[Wiglaf]

Also, see the BTS bugs thread. Plenty of fairly serious bugs there I didn't notice or experience myself.

[Dale]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
I didn't flame the whole game. I said the testing was poor and the AI design has glaring flaws. Seriously, they jump out at me after 4 games that took about 10 hours to play. How can they not have been an issue in testing? Anyway, aside from espionage not working in marathon:

Obviously you've never tested a dynamic code base. Anyways......

-corporation AI spams corporations

How is this a bug? Is it that you don't know how to use corps correctly? Or do you refer to the inflation issue of many corps in marathon?

-AIs don't defend coastal cities..even if I have a stack of carriers, destroys, and loaded transports sitting right offshore for 10 turns during war

Does the AI have the units to expend in the area? Does the AI have visibility to the tile you've parked on? Does the AI have its priorities in other areas (like another front)? Personally I haven't seen this problem.

-AIs take your coastal cities but only occupy them with a minimal force; better to raze the city. as is, they can easily be recaptured by troops from the mainland
-stacks sit idle in territory indefinitely when they should be attacking or pillaging

I haven't seen either in RtW so can't comment.

-espionage missions like spread culture are useless

Why? Do you know the pros/cons of it? Do you know the context to use it in?

-apostolic palace is too random (design flaw)
-Scenario AI in final frontier does not understand the new game rules

I haven't seen either in RtW so can't comment.
I haven't played FF either.

-AI loves destroying improvements with espionage, which is an awful waste when it targets a farm or two. better to focus on stealing techs or poisoning water

Do you know the AI has enough EP to perform the more expensive missions? Also, killing farms can be an effective tactic. Starves your cities, reducing your pop, eco base, prod base, etc.

-exploration is often bugged; AI scouts go back and forth, friendly scouts do the same

I haven't seen this.

-AI never uses privateers
-Privateer sound bug : sound of privateer pillaging is ridiculously loud when multiple privateers are blockading
-events: some events are bugged; they ask you to do the impossible, eg build () stables without providing a number to build
-some quests like holy mountain can be won accidentally if the mountain is just outside your borders

RtW doesn't include these, so haven't seen it.

-random event spam appears in the message log every turn. do i care that the dutch know how to plant apples across the world? maybe if **** like that didn't happen 20 times every turn, and it is usually trivial

20 times per turn? A bit melodromatic don't you think?

these just off the top of my head..the two most serious are that the AI just doesn't use corporations or espionage well, and these are BTS' two main feature additions.

Aside from the event errors and FF AI not using scenario rules, and possibly the AI using privateers (though I doubt this one as I saw the AI using them in testing), the others are not bugs.

Just because you don't know why the AI acted that way does not mean it didn't have a reason. There is more that the AI has to think about than what you see of it. The AI may be fighting on two fronts, and have a higher priority on the other front since you might be weak, or any number of other explanations.

The way I see it from what people complain about, here & CFC, a lot of people just don't like the fact the AI is playing more like a human, a deceitful, coniving, manipulative back-stabber.

[Wiglaf]

How is this a bug? Is it that you don't know how to use corps correctly? Or do you refer to the inflation issue of many corps in marathon?

the AI treats corporations like religions; it spreads corps to all its cities. this results in crippling maintaince penalties. the maintainence penalty in itself is not a bug -- it forces you to only spread the corp to cities that can benefit it from it. The AI doesn't get this

Does the AI have the units to expend in the area? Does the AI have visibility to the tile you've parked on? Does the AI have its priorities in other areas (like another front)? Personally I haven't seen this problem.

I have literally parked my fleet outside a major AI border city, taken, razed, and moved on to the next 6 cities. After their big port cities and their capital were all gone, I realized the AI doesn't seem to identify my parked fleet as a threat, even when it is loaded with troops, planes, etc.

And they had no reason to not be able to respond.

Why? Do you know the pros/cons of it? Do you know the context to use it in?

It's a pretty useless waste of EPs. Can net you a resource, if you're really lucky, I guess. not a big deal, I can just ignore it.

Do you know the AI has enough EP to perform the more expensive missions?

It would if it stopped wasting EPs on my damn farms!

Also, killing farms can be an effective tactic. Starves your cities, reducing your pop, eco base, prod base, etc.

Nope, it's not so effective when my stack of workers fix the farm the next turn. So much for hundreds of EPs they should have saved for something useful.

[Jaybe]

Perhaps Wiglaf should increase his difficulty level a notch.

[Dale]

He's probably playing DanQ's Pre-Settler mod.