The 2nd city: a strategic decision and the site

[fed1943]

Copper shall be connected within 4 turns. Then,Atlantis will comply
troops request; after the settler. But, even before the settler's
build begins, workers must lay roads according the next city site.

A new founded English city is north close the place we thought C
site. This creates a new situation that demands to think again about
the subject and to see it, not just as a Domestic decision upon a
city site, but also as a global strategic one. So,

Is it our decision to prepare immediately and declare war?
If so, no reason to change our previous decisions about our future
cities.

Do we consider the northeast option (the C site) becomes much
more valuable and urgent to stop and close the British?

Do we want to go to west (the B site)?

Or to the east; and now I must defend the closer pigs,clam (D site)?

IMHO, the good choice is to the northeast one, for its strategic and
resources importance.

Best regards,

[fed1943]

The English city to our north

[FeMme]

I definitely agree that we should push for the NE city site first before Vicky gets all the goodies!!!

War is a bit drastic but will be necessary in the not too distant future if we want to get the most out of this continent city-wise.

I say settle the NE site then slowly build up our military so we're ready to strike if Vicky gets too big for her boots.

[couerdelion]

Thanks for this, fed. It is certainly the most important decision we have to make although, initially, I have to admit to being sceptical that the proposed site is going to solve our problem.

I would also like to know what it is you will do with that city. There's very little food there so it will be a slow developer. That's bad news because, given that we may be founding our second city at a time when Vicky gets her fourth, we need something that will do something useful and not some simple "resource-grabber"

The greater risk now maybe that we lose the ivory or that the copper comes under pressure. That coast needs to be secured as well.

Perhaps some other pictures might also make the poll a little less one-sided.

[fed1943]

My intention was not to make any one-sided thing.
I just put the screenie to show the English city (mark of C site and
copper give exactly the relative place).
All the four sites ( A-B-C-D) are in screenies in the other thread
(the 2nd city one).
If someone thinks useful I can put them again in this thread (not an
easy task for me that screenies thing,believe me).
Best regards,

[fed1943]

My goal when I first looked for a good site for 2nd city was to find
a powerhouse; it would fit perfectly with Atlantis. And I found one:
the A site, to east of Atlantis. No need to elaborate, since it is an
well known tactic,and with stone... Just a little time was needed.

But we were not given that time. Barbs threats (2 units killed and
more fights) and copper flat tile created the need of more protection.
So, more turns spent and,with it, more barbs, English city and happy
cap.

I no longer recommend the A site, for now or later.
As I said, I think site C (northeast) is the way to go now, for strategic reasons, overall.
And, as rightly Coeur said, this city shall be slow developer.
So, needed fast, and good city, but not the ideal shape of "2nd city".

That means, more cities to be built almost in a row:
One to the west (B site) cannot wait much time, as this Vicky also
dominate the seas;
One to the east (D site) the pig/clam/dyes, also cannot wait long,
to calm the barbs;
Another to the east ( an excellent powerhouse, while not as strong
as A could be) shall be last.

That brings two consequences:
a) that nice early,stone,Wonders and cheap GEng. are to forget;
b) like it or not, whip and chop must be used.

Your thoughts,please?

Best regards,

[couerdelion]

Cheers again Fed.

The reason I asked “what you would do with the city?” was to get some idea of how it will develop. I understand that there is a strategic dimension in the decision to take the site before Vicky but, as with many things, there are other ways of acquiring the marble, dyes, spices (and gems) without founding that city ourselves

So there is the case for adopting a more traditional approach of finding good solid sites with resources we can work, perhaps also using the ivory for a little extra happiness and then converting a strong food base into a shock force to take the English border cities.

At the moment, I think the pigs and clams site fits this best and also makes our empire and its resources compact and easy to defend.

[RobWorham]

Well said both of you!!

I think the time has passed for grabbing the lions share of resources the peaceful way. I now think we should look at what cities would best serve the immediate needs of our empire. We are falling behind Vicky in all fields and this trend will only increase exponentially unless we get our skates on. We need strong, healthy, quick developing cities which form a tight, close network.

We must now hope that Vicky has no access to Copper, this will give us a window of opportunity to strike at her border cities if we so desire, otherwise it looks like we may have to wait until swordsmen and catapults.

In the meantime, the spread of southerly resources should suffice until such time as we can go on the offensive.

[joncnunn]

At the moment, I'm not positive any proposed city would be built up fast enough to help in a war to take the city location the English AI stole from us.

[fed1943]

MOI briefing

Excellent idea from Rob. First the "why", the goals.

Atlantis has few hammers (5-8) and we need a lot. And we need them due to the barbs and Vicki's ability to land everywhere. So, to "save"hammers is the way; new cities must,also, to soften the need of troops (to be clear the need and never to refuse build needed troops); so, cities that clear dangerous fog and deny unwanted landing of settlers.
So, the NE site (first), the piggies and west (2nd and 3rd, the order
among them...) last,more to east,the powerhouse.

Price and conditions: commerce shall suffer, priority to F and H;
slavery and mysticism needed to go to.

Now, the Briefing:
Turn 1 and 2: warrior, pottery and road, done.
Turn 3: slavery, Christa help mine copper.
Turn 4: begin granary.
Turn 5: copper connected, whip granary.
Turn 6: begin axeman.

After axe, settler; then, priority to immediate troop requests and
3 more settlers (the last one can be inside the row or later);
then workers.
The pops to sacrifice are the two working the dyes, remaining work
corn and stone; the third to come, will jump between rice and hills.
The workers connect Atlantis resources and road to new site/s
(this last, with military authorization).

Best regards,

[Paddy]

[RobWorham]

Nice one Fed

[couerdelion]

North-east site is not a good one. On balance, I think the Ivory site is the best of the rest and needs little more than a road system to the capital (easy to build), a mine on the hill and a camp on the ivory.

With around 50 turns will have churned out 3 promoted axemen and would be getting close to "double-whip" territory. Later would need Iron-Working for clearing the jungle on the Ivory camps and Calendar for the dyes. It does, however, need to build a granary and (of course) a barracks.

Tiles worked in following order
1. Rice 4/0/0
2. Plains Hill 1/3/0
3. Jungle Ivory Camp 1/2/1

Building would be
1-9 Barracks (Whipped at size 2)
9-24 Granary (Whipped when previous whip unhappy expires
Axeman built in 38, whip in 40 and built 49


Comparison to the Clam, Pigs site, I've got that churning out axemen later but probably more because of the food. This city needs a Monument and Work Boat rather than the Ivory cities granary and techs required are Mysticism and Animal Husbandry. Will also need the Ivory developed to avoid unhappiness, a farm on the dye tile and a mine on the hill. Pigs will need to be "pastured" on the city expansion.

Work order will be
Pigs (5/1/0) when available
Clams (4/0/3) when available
Dyes (3/0/3)
Hill Mine (1/3/0)

Build plan would be

Monument whip after 11 turns
Workboat whip 15 turns later
Barracks built with overflow
First axe whipped in turn 42


The northern city is just a liability

[RobWorham]

Nice analysis Coeur!!

[couerdelion]

I forgot to add that the Pigs/Clams site would need a Trireme too