Some crimes really make me speechless

[Proteus_MST]

In this case the murder of a prisoner in the prison of Siegburg (Germany).

The brutality of this case (as well as the incompetence of the wards, who didn´t notice anything although the victim pressed the panic button) surpasses all boundaries.

The victim (20 years old) was locked away in a cell with the perpetrators (20,19 and 17 years old).
This saturday the 3 men decided that they wannted to kill their victim (why? Out oif curiosity, because they wanted to see how someone dies)
What followed was a 12 hours lasting matyrdom of the victim.
During these 12 hours they forced him to drink a liquid with hot powder, water, urine and saliva and eat a tube of toothpaste (and when he puked from this they also forced him to eat his own vomit), sexually abused him several times and beat him with devices they assembled from furniture (and could turn it into parts of the mobiliar back again so that noone would suspect these poarts to be used as torture devices).
The victim was able to press the panic button once, but when the prison guards arrived the culprits convinced them that the button was accidentally pressed. Because of the loud noises coming out of the cell inmates of other cells complained, which resulted in the prison guards were summoned once again, this time entering the cell, but the culprits just said, that they had moved mobiliar around (their victim obviuosly was lying unconsciously in his bed and therefore was unable to say anything)
When they finally were done with him (and wanted to finish their crime) they tried to hang their victims with cables, fixing these cables between toilet door and frame and forcing their victim to climb onto a bucket so that they could kick it away after they had positioned the sling around his neck.
But this final phase of the matyrdom of the victim took 2 hours, as they failed three times (two times because their cable teared from the weight of the victim and the third time because, after they lowered him onto the ground after 1,5 minutes of strangling he was unconscious but still alive, so they beat him until he woke up and forced him onto the bucket for a fourth time, which is when they succeeded in killing him).

They even almost succeeded in making people believe that everything was de facto just a suicide, but obviously they had made a mistake or two, so that the people who examined the case took a second look, resulting into these cruel details coming into light.

Sorry, only References are in german:
http://www.internetcologne.de/cms/ar...3/artikel.html
http://www.waz.de/waz/waz.politik.vo...WAZ&dbserver=1
http://www.waz.de/waz/waz.politik.vo...er=&dbserver=1

IMHO even the things done in Abu Ghraib pale in comparison to this specially sick case.
Normally I´m against death penalty, but such cases makes me thing that culprits in rare cases llike these should, as a penalty, endure the same things they did to their victim (which, in this case would result in their death of course).
Either this, or using the ancient practice of declaring someone to be vogelfrei (free as a bird) meaniung that such people are outcast from society and everyone who commits a crime against people who are vogelfrei won´t be punished for this, even if he murders them.

There is also the question about how this (12 hours lasting matyrdom) could go undetected until the vitcim was dead, even though wards entered the cell and even though he püressed the panic button.

[Pekka]

"IMHO even the things done in Abu Ghraib pale in comparison to this specially sick case."

Seriously? Do you know they did more then put people on cheerleader pyramids? You want to see the 'real nasty pics' ?

This seems like pretty normal in the field of very violent behaviour. I see this crap all the time in the papers. People beating each other with axes to the head like 10 times..

there was even the case of neonazis who tortured this retarded fellow, chained him on a hot .. the thing that warms the houses. Beat him with cables, carved with knives..

Yeah, they got like a year or two for torture .

This is surely worthy of thread and all, I'm saying this is not even ultra violence yet and this happens ALL the time. It would be shocking if this wasn't so present all the time.



What I'ms aying is that this is normal violent criminal behavior.

[Proteus_MST]

Hm, what shocks me most is the timeframe of 12 hours, most crimes of equal violence I read of only have the victim suffer for 1-2 hours before he/she is dead.

And of course it is interesting that that it could take place in a prison without the prison guard noticing anything (and without them being involved in the vcrime of course).

As for my comparison with Abu Ghraib:
In one thing the inmates of Abu Ghraib suffered more, as their matyrdom went on for months.
But AFAIK the amount of violence didn´t reach the heights it did in this case. At least from Abu Ghraib I haven´t heard of sexual abuse and other things which resemble the things done by the prisoners in Siegburg.
I only heard of mock executions and the things they had in public available pictures (like the pyramid you mentioned and this female private habuing a üprisoner at a leash).
(but if you have more informations about Abu Ghraib, Pekka, I would be interested to hear them)

[Pekka]

"But AFAIK the amount of violence didn´t reach the heights it did in this case. At least from Abu Ghraib I haven´t heard of sexual abuse and other things which resemble the things done by the prisoners in Siegburg."

You haven't? Then read the news. Just google it and exclude the clearly weird sites.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Pekka
"But AFAIK the amount of violence didn´t reach the heights it did in this case. At least from Abu Ghraib I haven´t heard of sexual abuse and other things which resemble the things done by the prisoners in Siegburg."

You haven't? Then read the news. Just google it and exclude the clearly weird sites.

O.K.,
if the things which Wikipedia talks about (with Referense to SBS) are true, then Abu Ghraib has the same amount of violence as Siegburg (and sometimes even greater, as in the case which came in to light in 2006 where they cut the tongue from a prisoner who is lying on the ground)

[Dinner]

If prisoners have 12 hours to just do anything they want without guards ever walking the cell block to keep an eye on things then something is wrong.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Oerdin
If prisoners have 12 hours to just do anything they want without guards ever walking the cell block to keep an eye on things then something is wrong.

The prison is understaffed and they obviously chose a good time for their crime, i.e. the night from a saturday to sunday where there are les guards than during the day.

But even if there had been patrols, for example once an hour, the question is if it had changed anything.

As the victim was able to press the panic button (which is installed in every cell and summons the guards) a guard arrived and was convinced by the culprits that they pressed it by mistake

Then a second time a guard even entered the cell when the culprits were so loud that prisoners from a neighboring cell complained to the guards but didn´t notice that anything as wrong (as the victim lay unconscious in bed and the guards perhaps thought he was asleep, as it as during the night)

I don´t know about the prison but I suspect that the prisoners hear in advance that a guard is coming (opening prison doors and the like) and therefore can prepare for this (in this case beating the victim unconscious and laying him into his bed).

Perhaps surveillance cameras in every cell could help (which obviously aren´t installed in this prison).

[SlowwHand]

Another argument for death penalty, even though the argument was unintentional.

[RGBVideo]

Perhaps surveillance cameras in every cell could help (which obviously aren´t installed in this prison).

sigh...

[Dinner]

I'd say this is an argument for the death penality. If you're already in prison for life why not commit more crimes in prison since it can't get worse? Run your prison gang and kill people at will. What can they do? Put you in prison?

Taking away TV time just doesn't cut it while solitary confinement for the rest of their lives would be considered "cruel" (by whiny people anyway). In the US when that stuff happens then the criminals get charged with first degree murder, are likely repeat offenders, and so get the death penality. Other prisoners see that as bad as things are they at least aren't getting hanged though if they commit more crimes while in prison they just might get hanged. Thus there is a deterent effect.

Personally I'd like to see hangings happen with in 1-2 years of a guilty verdict but even if the system is inefficent it is still better then not having the death penalty.

[DinoDoc]

Oerdin: Germany doesn't have life in prison, IIRC.

[SlowwHand]

A person in prison for life without parole has absolutely nothing to lose. Name one thing more dangerous.

For this discussion, naming Ming will NOT suffice.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Oerdin: Germany doesn't have life in prison, IIRC.

We have.
But AFAIK even if sentenced for life can apply for parole after a certain time (unless you commited really cruel crimes or there are other reasons why you shoudl stay locked away forever).
Therefore even prisoners sentenced for life seldom stay in prison for the rest of their life but most of them are released earlier.

Two of the three culprits probably could be sentenced according to the adults criminal law (but the 17 years old probably only according to the youth criminal law) therefore it could be that they are sentenced for life.

(Those locked away for life normally are transferred into other, high security prisons, which Siegburg wasn´t, therefore, perhaps, they wouldn´t be able to do the same thing there which they did in Siegburg)

But of course, even locked up for life probably is nothing compared to the things their victim had to endure

[Gibsie]

Sounds like a scene from Oz.

[SlowwHand]

The monkeys?

[Gibsie]

The explicitly violent HBO prison drama

[Tattila the Hun]

Martyrdom?

[SlowwHand]

Monkeys suicide bombing the witch?

[Adalbertus]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Oerdin: Germany doesn't have life in prison, IIRC.

In rare cases, it does. Usually, those who have a life-long sentence will be examined by experts after 15 years or so if they can be re-socialized. If there are good prospects, they come free (and yes, sometimes it fails).
If the court found a "besondere Schwere der Schuld" (particular severity of guilt), it is much more difficult to get free - while it is possible.
A court may also order a "Sicherungsverwahrung" (keeping in safety) which means that some restrictions of jail are lifted but they are under constant supervision - This is thought of not so much as punishment than to provide safety of potential victims. The prospects for future life are checked every other year.
So you can spend your life in prison also in Germany, if you threaten to kill your former judge, for example.

On the other hand, the murderers in Siegburg were 17, 19 and 20 years old. At least the 17-year-old will be sentenced under the "Jugendstrafrecht" (youth's criminal law) which means he will get 10 years at most. Depending on what psycologists will say, this might also apply to the other two.

[Adalbertus]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
But of course, even locked up for life probably is nothing compared to the things their victim had to endure

I've heard that some criminals (abusers of children) have to be protected from the wrath of other prisoners - which well might happen to them. In this case, I'm not quite sure if ten years in constant fear of torture aren't worse than a few hours of torture. (I'm happy to have no personal experience in things like that.)

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
We have.

Effectively, you don't. Or I'd be interested in finding out how many people are actually sentenced to life rather than just being jailed for a long time before being released.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Effectively, you don't. Or I'd be interested in finding out how many people are actually sentenced to life rather than just being jailed for a long time before being released.

Acording to some sources the number of people was exactly 1.

Rudolf Hess, Hitlers deputy.

According to the same sources even people with particular severity of guilt get out after 20-25 years.
But the court can decide that, after getting out of prison the culprit stays in Sicherheitsverwahrung (keeping in safety) for an undefined amount of time.
This means that he still stays locked away (but has more freedom than normal prison inmates) until psychologists decide that the culprit is no danger to society anymore.

[Zeeboe]

I watched the film "Stoic" last winter, and I recently rewatched it, and I have studied the case the film was based on, and came across this thread via a google search. Does anyone else know anything extra about the Hermann H. case? I've read other sites that explain what was done to him, but do you know anything else? I have come across a few sites that discuss the case, but they are only in German, such as the sites mentioned in the first post of this thread. Could anyone who speaks English and German translate just some of what is posted on those sites mentioned in the first post please?

[Felch]

Martyrdom?

Yeah, this kind of puzzled me. Was the victim killed because of his beliefs?

[BlackCat]

Yeah, this kind of puzzled me. Was the victim killed because of his beliefs?

This thread is some six years old - don't expect an answer.

[Felch]

Damnit

I fell for a necro.

[BlackCat]

Nah, **** happens - maybe you'll find this thread interesting :

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/170908-Torture

[Zeeboe]

I have a long memory, and the story is new to me, so I can answer this question.

Yeah, this kind of puzzled me. Was the victim killed because of his beliefs?

No. I am guessing he has been called a martyr by some because he suffered so much. And what caused him to be tortured and killed is because (and this is just a guess) the inmates were all locked in together for twenty-three hours, and I honestly believe Hermann was treated so cruely by his cellmates for entertainment. They felt like breaking the monotony, and perhaps being locked up for so long made them crazy, which is what caused them to be so sadistic. The men also admitted in interviews that they did it because they wanted to see someone die. All pretty disturbing stuff.

[Proteus_MST]

This is a thread I havent seen for a very long time

And yes, he was tortured and killed just for entertainment of the other inmates, there were no religious reasons involved (and because they thought that they could fake that Hermann commited suicide, so that they could get released earlier from their prison term [because of the traumatic experience of having someone commit suicide in their cell ])

The 3 culprits btw. initially got away with mild away with mild sentences ... just 10-15 years ... but for Pascal I., the main culprit (the one who first came up with the idea of torturing and killing Hermann H., the public prosecution office went into revision and he now has to serve an additional "Sicherheitsverwahrung" in addition to his 15 years, meaning that he will stay locked away indefinitely (hopefully for life)
(the other 2 might also get "Sicherheitsverwahrung" ... but this will only be determined at the end of their regular prison sentence ... condemning someone of the age of the culprits to Sicherheitsverwahrung already at the beginning of his sentence was a novelty, which was just introduced in the trial against Pascal I. )

[Zeeboe]

Thank you for the response. In your first post on this thread, you posted some links. Is there anything in those links that have info that has not already been mentioned on this thread? (I ask because those links are in German, and I don't speak German I'm afraid.)