Questions about economic starbases

[Badtz Maru]

I have a couple of questions about economic starbases.

First, does the bonus it provides to trade routes apply to routes that pass through the bases range or only to ones that pass directly through the square the base is on? I'd think it was the former, but I noticed that the AI tends to build it's bases directly on it's routes.

Secondly, is there a way to get the highlighted range of a starbase to conform to the parsec boundaries instead of being a perfect circle? This leads me to be unsure which squares are actually getting it's bonuses - is it squares that are totally within the circle, more than 50% within the circle, or any square that is partially highlighted at all?

[ZargonX]

First, does the bonus it provides to trade routes apply to routes that pass through the bases range or only to ones that pass directly through the square the base is on? I'd think it was the former, but I noticed that the AI tends to build it's bases directly on it's routes.

I'm fairly certain in counts towards all routes that pass through the stations area of effect. I think the AI builds directly on the routes because, well, it's an AI and has mysterious ways...

[Peets]

yup, the bonus applies to the routes that pass through the range area of the starbase.

[Badtz Maru]

Cool...now, does anyone know how to tell what squares are actually within the starbases radius?

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
Cool...now, does anyone know how to tell what squares are actually within the starbases radius?

In the 1.1 release, you will be able to see the radius.

[tetley]

I'm playing the beta, and the econ starbases are a bit nerfed. You only get 10% production (5% free) and 10% freighter revenue without that second factory upgrade.

If you consider 4 constructors (~600bc), plus the initial starbase cost (~400bc), that's 1000bc initial investment. If you can fit 6 planets in its radius--which is WAY optimistic--and let's say an average 30bc/turn production--a bit pessimistic (I make it pessimistic because some of those planets will be class-7's, etc.). That's 180bc/turn. Take 10% of that, and that's 55 turns before you even make back your initial investment. And twice that--110 turns!--before you make it back in free production. That is sad.

The numbers drop down to 30 turns/60 turns when you get that second factory upgrade, but by that point you're well into the game. There may not be another 30/60 turns before the game is already basically over.

[Peets]

I don't think you should count the constructor cost.
There isn't much better you can use to replace that cost.

[tetley]

Why wouldn't you count the constructors? That's 600bc I could have used for something else.

[Kinjiru]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ


In the 1.1 release, you will be able to see the radius.

You can already do that, unless I am misunderstanding the point.

If you click on a starbase, you will see it's circular area of influence projected onto the galaxy map. If your trade route runs through that AoI, then you get the trade bonus. If not, you don't.

[ChaotikVisions]

You can't just look at it base cost wise. You're trading BC now for speedier production later. If you simply didn't build the constructors and save your BC as cash it'd cost far more to speed the construction of ships/buildings continually like the starbase does. I think its worth taking a temporary hit to produce things faster for the rest of the game on the planets affected.

[tetley]

Not necessarily save your BC as cash. But use your industrial capacity to build something else, like ships or Galactic Achievements. Compared to other things you could be doing, it just seems your return on investment on Econ starbases is very low in the beta. That could change for very long games, or if you choose an accelerated tech option (where you get the high-level factory techs).

[Peets]

Originally posted by tetley
Why wouldn't you count the constructors? That's 600bc I could have used for something else.

I wouldn't buy it but build it.

[Hansolo88]

Yes, they are much cheaper to construct, less than 200 bc I believe (depending on the design of course).

[Badtz Maru]

Originally posted by Kinjiru


You can already do that, unless I am misunderstanding the point.

If you click on a starbase, you will see it's circular area of influence projected onto the galaxy map. If your trade route runs through that AoI, then you get the trade bonus. If not, you don't.

I know how to ge the circular influence indicator on the map, but the problem with it is that it's circular while the map is divided up into little squares. Nobody seems to know whether a square has to be entirely within the circle or not to be effected by the starbase, and that's very important sometimes when trying to place a base to effect the economies of two different planets.

Ship range is not depicted as perfect circles, so there's no guesswork as to where you can go and where you can't (though I've found you can colonize a planet just outside your range if an adjacent square is in range). I'd like to see the squares effected by the starbase outlined like ship range.

[Gufnork]

Actually all ships can travel one square outside their range for some bizarre reason, even if it's empty space.

[tetley]

Wtih the first factory it takes 4 constructors to build up your Econ starbase, at ~150bc apiece. That's 600bc, +432bc the game charges you up front, for a total of 1000bc initial investment. Unless you're evil, then you can ignore the 432bc.

I just played a game on Crippling and got the pants out-colonized off of me. It was worth it then--the game was long. The AI's researched all the factory techs except Industrial Sector, which I traded for, and by the end of the game the econ starbase was kicking butt. But that's the problem: it was the end of the game. Doesn't do much good then.

I'd say there's 3 factors that make the Econ starbases more useful: length of game, level of factory tech (that's a big one), and number+quality of planets you can enshroud (you can throw more factories on higher-PQ planets). Before you get that second factory tech, it's just not worth it; and there needs to be enough game left after that second factory tech to get a benefit from it. Sure, you can build it earlier and make the bonus last longer, but there's the opportunity cost. You can spend your bc on Social production instead and build Galactic Achievements first, and build factories on your other planets while you're at it. Get some raw production points out first. You can later multiply it by a Econ starbase %, if the game's long enough.

I really like the bang for your buck you get with Military starbases, though; especially in the early game. You can calculate their value in terms of extra ships you didn't have to build, and most of all, DEAD ships you don't have to replace. And then you can "upgrade" your obsolete ships simply by upgrading your military starbase another tech level. Don't forget to put one point of defense on your ships to use it.

[Badtz Maru]

I really like economy starbases, but I don't build huge numbers of them. I tend to place one if I can get two planets within it's range, or if most (if not all) of my trade routes will pass through it. My last game was a large galaxy, I controlled 6 planets in three star systems and had 5 economic starbases when I got my diplomatic victory, all of which met the conditions I listed above. Until I got the last two planets from a suprise spite surrender by the Torians, the majority of my income was from trade, not taxes. Even 10% bonus to industry/commerce was enough for a base to pay for itself in a couple of years in most cases just with the bonus to the planets alone, but the main reason I built them was for that trade route boost.

[MojoJojoUK]

Originally posted by ZargonX


I'm fairly certain in counts towards all routes that pass through the stations area of effect. I think the AI builds directly on the routes because, well, it's an AI and has mysterious ways...

The trade bonus effects the mini-freighters when they are in range of the starbase. So by having the starbase directly on the path of the mini-freighters, you maximise the amount of time they receive the bonus.

The factory upgrades are really only worthwhile when the starbase effects several different colonies - since it effects all of them equally, they would be ridiculously overpowered if you got a good return on them for just one planet. The only time it might be worth making a starbase for factory upgrades that will effect only a single planet might be for a mega-production planet (i.e. manufacturig capital) where you want to make sur you can churn out capital ships as fast as possible.

Frogboy mentioned that the bonuses had been lowered - it's because now half the bonus production is free. So I guess these numbers are being tuned considerably at the moment.

[Peets]

If you build a economy starbase at the start of the game it's very expensive.

But one thing you should take in mind is when you build a economic starbase, your income raises and I have noticed that it will do a nice raise. This way I can put my social/military/research higher. When I noticed my income is close to 0 or going red, a economic starbase helps me to get it back up. So worth the investment in my opinion

[tetley]

Building an economic starbase raises your income? Is this in the beta? Are you sure it isn't just your population growing?

[Peets]

I ment if you build the Trading modules in it

[tetley]

Okay. How does the timing of that work out in the beta if you have no population growth bonus? I'm always taking the pop growth bonus, and by the time I'm able to upgrade, my economy's so well in the black I don't even need to trade (except for diplomatic bonuses). May be a moot question, since Stardock has another update really soon.

[Badtz Maru]

Thanks to this thread, I can now get trade routes to be 70% of my income as opposed to 50% (albeit with Neutral Trading). The trick is to run all your trade routes from a planet on the edge or corner of the map so most of them are going in the same direction. This way I was able to get multiple overlapping starbases adding their bonus to the majority of the various routes' length - every trade route passed through at least 3 economic starbases zones, with most being through 5 or more.

[xts3]

as long as the circle touches the square its covered, if you doubt, double click a planet and click "summary" in the planet details it will show you production bonuses in the "from starbase" box.

[Saakutarallaa]

[realpolitic]

I haven't found trade routes useful. Seems like planet improvements, banks etc., pay off faster. I go through an ICS start, if I run out ob bcs, I sell things rather than cut production, so I need a reatively fast recovery, and a handful of routes don't cut it, especially since it takes a long time to build, if I need the supplies to cross the galaxy. (Large boards so far have given me the only decent payoff.)

[Peets]

it was dead for 2 years!