Review-in-Progress (Open Thread)

[yin26]

I first used my "Incredible Review Machine" on GalCiv back in the day: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=82017 I'm *not* going to do that this time, however. Instead, I'd like to try a more organic approach to a review --one that invites conversation and input from everybody here.

While I could try to avoid doing this, I'll likely be making Civ 4 comparisons all over the place. I think Civ 4 is a solid game, so any positive (or superlative) comparisons will speak well of GalCiv2.

I bought the Special Edition at WalMart for $39, which is pretty good considering even the on-line version costs $44. So right out of the gate, I'm pretty happy with that kind of price for a game that promises tremendous replay value and developer support.

While I'm only part way through my first game (set to Beginner just so I can poke around safely), I already have a few impressions:

* GalCiv2 is really focused on the gamer. By that I mean, for example, that all your game settings are remembered session to session ... things like which civs you choose to play against/as, the size of the galaxy, planet types, etc. (something still not done universally in Civ4). You can delete saved games straight from the load/save game directory (something you cannot do in Civ4). You can tweak such things as zoom levels, ambient lighting levels, background star density, etc. These are little things, of course, but that's sort of like saying a window seat on an airplane is a little thing...unless, of course, you're taking a long trip, in which case that little bit of added comfort and enjoyment gets multiplied by a couple degrees. With luck, GalCiv2 will be a long, enjoyable trip.

* Although I haven't played long enough to see the repercussions, GalCiv's AI "doesn't cheat" though at higher levels it will get economic bonuses. The AI sees the human player as another AI civ, for example, and uses turn-by-turn optimizations to squeeze every advantage it can without otherwise resorting to magically knowing where your units are (for that, the AI scouts heavily...something I have started to see).

* In general, the AI just seems a lot more clever than you sometimes get in Civ4. For example, if you attack a civ that happens to be a strong trading partner of your friend, that friend might get involved to protect his economic interests. Civs also surrender...to *other* civs! We saw this in GalCiv1, of course, but it's still such a great feature that it bears repeating -- yesterday I had the Drengin on the ropes, and they said something like: "O.K. You've got us beat. Are you happy? What do you want to stop your attack? We'll do anything." Well, I took his techs and a pile of cash...but the next turn, he turned around and gave his couple planets to another civ (even more clever would have been to do that before giving me anything, of course, but at Beginner level, the AI's are 'sub-normally' intelligent). While this Civ he surrendered to is my friend, the problem now is my friend suddenly has a huge boost that I can already see will cause me trouble eventually. Compare this with Civ4 where civs don't surrender no matter how silly it is not to...and what is the likelihood we'll ever see Germany cede itself to China in the Civ franchise? Next of never, I imagine. One could try to argue that the Civ approach makes the game more challenging, but that's actually quite wrong: By ceding to another civ before being destroyed, surrendering civs in GalCiv2 get put back in the pot so to speak and collectively represent a far more dynamic and interesting force rather than dull-wittedly just allowing you to grind each one down to nothing in relatively easy succession.

* AIs will also be more explicit during trades. For example, if you offer some pre-requisite techs but throw in some subsequent tech, the AI will point out things like "If I have the subsequent tech, those prereqs don't really mean anything." Again, this is a small thing but adds to the atmosphere of the game and helps fuel the illusion that the AI is rather clever (or not just dumb as a doorknob).

* The rally point system in GalCiv2 seems to have tremendous potential. You can set planets not only to send ships out to any number of rally points, but you can also have the ships set to a particular action when they get there, things like form a fleet, attack, do nothing, etc. You can then also have governors (code word for a kind of macro command) change any of these behaviors globally so you don't have to change things on a planet-by-planet basis down the road. I'm just starting to figure this stuff out, but the potential for time savings is huge.

* There are no workers in GalCiv2! I know full well this is a negative point for many Civ4 players, but I hate workers...always have. Instead, your planet starts with a limited number of usable tiles (determined by its "class"), and right from turn 1 you can assign builds to all those tiles. Build and Forget (tm). Love it. Really love it. I suppose one could argue that since Civ4 doesn't have a unit workshop so you can tweak units like in SMAC, the player has to be left with some kind of fun micro. Maybe it's just me, but the tile development scheme in Civ has always been tedious. Some forummers are suggesting that Civ4 adopt a "worker overlay" system...so you can pre-assign build orders...like GalCiv already has. What GalCiv does have, however, is the option to micro your ship builds (see next item).

* Whereas micro managing a bunch of farmers is really dull to me, GalCiv lets me build customized space ships...I mean "Customized" with a capital "C" -- you are literally limited by your imagination and not much else when putting these babies together. Stardock understood the appeal this has, not just in game play terms, but in just pure fun. For instance, the entire first tab of options are free goodies you can put on your ship for nothing more than visual appeal, things like cool looking wings, various colored lights, huge satellite dishes, etc. Where things get really tough, though, is when it comes time to outfit that ship with an engine, life support, weapons, defense, etc. I say "tough" because available space is at a premium here, and you simply cannot build that "dream ship" until you invest a LOT more time on the tech side developing better (and smaller) techs that use less space more effectively. Thus, behind all the visual fun of designing your ships, you're forced to strategize carefully about how best to use your limited space on the ships, which in turn puts a fantastic "Guns vs. Butter" strain on what areas of the tech tree you choose to pursue. For example, do you follow hull technology further to get more space or do you go for advanced tile improvement tech so you can use some of those hostile tiles on your planets? This is fun and meaningful (strategic) micro management in my opinion.

* Another aspect of the ship design thing is that the AI is superb at maximizing the rock-paper-scissors dynamic. For example, missiles are countered by chaff or ECM (electronic counter measures). Lasers are countered by shields. Mass drivers (bullets) are countered by better armor, etc. In my game last night, I went at the AI with lasers and had ECM for defense (I had seen visually what weapons he was using against my friend -- missiles). Well, I make quick work of about a half dozen of his fighters that were scattered around his planets, but his next batch of fighters were built with lasers instead of missiles, and so my ECM counter-measures were useless. This forced me back to my ship design, which I mixed up with shields and missiles of my own (easily auto-updating all designs in the queue). Thus, an interesting and strategic game of intergalactic poker ensued: "O.K., I see your lasers and raise my shield tech."

* As for the interface (something I was rather harsh on Civ4 about), I'd say GalCiv does a marginally better job at making a wealth of information easy to access. That said, there are areas to improve. For example, something simple like changing what ship your are building on a planet is too clumsy. Unless I'm missing something, you go to the shipyard, click on the new ship type, click "Done" -- but then the game dumps you out of the planet view, so you can't confirm the change. If you click "back to planet view" then you don't seem to select the new ship type. I'm assuming I'm missing something easy here, but to this point I haven't found a easy way to avoid this annoying loop. The saving grace here, though, is Stardock is so open to fan input, and Brad (the developer and CEO of the company) has worked very hard to retain ownership of the patch schedule, that things like this are almost inevitably going to improve.

* I can't yet speak to what I think is the most important comparison between Civ4 and GalCiv2 -- an interesting end game. I have read others say that GalCiv2 wins in this regard, and that would make sense when you factor in things like AIs that seems much more aware of the implications of protecting trade routes, surrendering rather than idly being slaughtered, etc. However, I lack enough play time with GalCiv2 to say anything on this point yet.

* Graphics are crisp. I *love* that you can zoom so far out that the map becomes more like an abstract board game than one trying to show off pretty 3D units. That's probably the best way to compare GalCiv with Civ4 -- Civ4 made the marketing decision to look pretty, and, in my opinion and in the opinion of those who struggle to get it to run smoothly, paid a high price. GalCiv, perhaps because Stardock doesn't have a Firaxis-like budget to begin with, made much more careful choices about how to use graphics, and these choices result in less clutter, more useful visual information, and silky smooth performance. It's a tip of the hat to the way strategy games used to be, and Stardock deserves huge praise on this point. Don't get me wrong, the fully scalable 3D shipyard functionality has that "wow" factor, but particularly insofar as those designs ultimately have very real in-game implications. That said, there are already players making rather breathtakingly elaborate ships in the spirit of Star Trek, etc. In other words, the graphic efforts were put in areas that actually mean something to the core audience and not, let's say, over-animating individual units or map tiles.

* Just a bit on the tech tree: I have seen criticisms elsewhere of the GalCiv approach, for example, of having "bland" tech names like "Missile Mark 1" "Missile Mark 2" etc. But this misses the larger point: GalCiv2's tech tree is less about major breakthroughs achieved across turns that represent hundreds of years of human history (ala Civ 4) and are more about incremental but hugely relevant improvements to technologies that occur over "real-world" weeks. There is something, for me, far more interesting in refining missile technology so I can fit more powerful weaponry on much smaller space on my ships than the largely arbitrary (and increasingly less and less realistic) techs in Civ4 where, for example, animal husbandry "reveals" horses or communism brings a food bonus. Those things seem huge on a grand scale, but something like making your missiles fit in a smaller space actually feels more intimate and realistic. It also, I would argue, makes tech progression feel a bit slower and more interesting to balance than what we see in the mega techs progressions that run out far too fast and seem too arbitrary in Civ4. So if "gameplay" in Civ4 makes the thin tech tree do wonky things there, "gameplay" in GalCiv2 keeps your tech progression tied smaller issues that collectively give the player a greater sense of accomplishment and control over how and in what areas the empire is to improve. You *feel* like the ruler of these planets, both in terms of the time scale and the decisions to be made, whereas in Civ4 you often feel like some abstracted spirit haunting the landscape for centuries.

* I should also note that in GalCiv2, there seems to be very little of the "I just researched these units and already they are obsolete" syndrome found in Civ4. Again, your ship designs and tech progression is so measured and subtle, that you'll find yourself "stuck" with certain technological limitations for a long, long time, and the focus comes back to how effectively you can design ships within those confines. If you find yourself completely outclassed technologically in GalCiv2, that's because you are REALLY behind in tech and not because the AI researched siege weapons a few turns ahead of you.

* I'll conclude by saying that I am still too wet behind the ears to declare GalCiv2 the winner over Civ4. The Civ franchise will always have that edge of providing you with techs and leaders we already know from history, for example, and there's a certain psychological power in that. Ultimately, therefore, there's a huge divide between these games --Human history over centuries or human future over weeks? Huge leaps of tech and society in a few turns or incremental tweaks of tech and society in a few hours? Perhaps it's just my age showing, but I prefer the slower, more deliberate pacing of GalCiv in this regard, so it would be unfair to say GalCiv is somehow "better" for its approach. I can say, though, that these games are worlds apart in some fundamental ways, and I look forward to gaining more experience with the game to see which one ultimately keeps my interest longer.

[bonscott]

Nice job Yin. Ever since I got GalCiv 2 the day it was released I have not played a single minute of Civ 4. GC2 is so immersive it's crazy. Oblivion might be the only thing that makes me put GC2 down for a while.

I'll address a couple things for you.

* As for the interface (something I was rather harsh on Civ4 about), I'd say GalCiv does a marginally better job at making a wealth of information easy to access. That said, there are areas to improve. For example, something simple like changing what ship your are building on a planet is too clumsy. Unless I'm missing something, you go to the shipyard, click on the new ship type, click "Done" -- but then the game dumps you out of the planet view, so you can't confirm the change. If you click "back to planet view" then you don't seem to select the new ship type. I'm assuming I'm missing something easy here, but to this point I haven't found a easy way to avoid this annoying loop. The saving grace here, though, is Stardock is so open to fan input, and Brad (the developer and CEO of the company) has worked very hard to retain ownership of the patch schedule, that things like this are almost inevitably going to improve.

To quickly change your ship build, click the "planet info" button, first one to the left on the bottom. This brings up a listing of all your planets with a ton of info including current social and ship builds. Simply double-click the line showing the ship build and it will give you a quick build list with which you can quickly change to a different ship.

Another way is to click the planet on the map. Details appear below in the info screen including current ship build and ships in orbit. Click the "build" button there to bring up the same quick build screen as below.

* The rally point system in GalCiv2 seems to have tremendous potential. You can set planets not only to send ships out to any number of rally points, but you can also have the ships set to a particular action when they get there, things like form a fleet, attack, do nothing, etc. You can then also have governors (code word for a kind of macro command) change any of these behaviors globally so you don't have to change things on a planet-by-planet basis down the road. I'm just starting to figure this stuff out, but the potential for time savings is huge.

Rally points are one of the best things in GC2. Here is a quick example. In one game I was attacking the Torians. I created a rally point on their border and called it "Green death". Drengin were on my other side and things were getting a bit tense so I created another rally point there called "Die Drengin Die". So for each ship built I then simply clicked the rally icon and chose the rally point I wanted.

When I finally took the Torians out of the game (dang green guys gave up their homeworld to the Yor) I went into the Governor and with two clicks switched all ships heading to Green death to switch up to Die Drengin Die. Next turn all the autopilots started moving to the new rally point. I then deleted the Green death rally as I no longer needed it.

And it only gets better from there.

* I should also note that in GalCiv2, there seems to be very little of the "I just researched these units and already they are obsolete" syndrome found in Civ4. Again, your ship designs and tech progression is so measured and subtle, that you'll find yourself "stuck" with certain technological limitations for a long, long time, and the focus comes back to how effectively you can design ships within those confines. If you find yourself completely outclassed technologically in GalCiv2, that's because you are REALLY behind in tech and not because the AI researched siege weapons a few turns ahead of you.

You got that right. Ships rarely are without their uses. Even my "mini-scorpion fighters" from the beginning of the game have great uses later on. Usually I have them on system patrol in my inner systems or attach them to a fleet of larger capital ships. It's nice having a battle cruiser along with 3-4 smaller ships to make a nice balanced fleet. And the smaller ships are usually first to go leaving your capital ship more likely to survive a tough fight.

The constant "*** for tat" with the AI on ship technology is awesome (which they do even on normal). My most resent game is a great example. I was attacking the Iconions with mass driver technology. I pretty much wiped the floor with them to begin with. But sure enough ships of theirs started appearing that had armor and my spies noted the other races started doing the same thing to counter my "agression". So I quickly traded my way up the laser tree up to Plasma weapons and they had no shields. Problem is my shield technology wasn't all that great either and they also had powerful lasers so my losses were heavy. Now I'm starting to see the other races build up shields but armor staying way behind so I'll start moving up the mass drivers tree once again to get jump on them. It's an awesome stratigic part of the game that doesn't get enough press and Civ 4 just can't compete here.

[yin26]

Many good points, bonscott!

By the way, another reason I think GalCiv will ultimately beat out Civ4 as a better game for me is Brad's approach to multiplayer as explained here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...50#post4244750 Simply put, he decided not to the let the minority players (MP) force a lesser game down the throats of the majority (SP). We see clearly that Civ4 --for marketing reasons or whatever-- went the other way. I understand and respect the MPers who are having a great time with Civ 4 on-line, but Firaxis has held SP hostage by this decision.

Here, too, I think Stardock's relative lack of budget actually helps them make much better decisions about where to put the money.

By the way, just one kind of problem the "MP first" ploy causes is in diplomacy: If you take the stance that no human player online would cede his nation to another player but would always prefer to fight to the last unit (or just resign), then you don't even begin to contemplate coding the SP AI to do things like what we see in GalCiv2. You also force SP to reflect the kinds of human to human strategies that take place on-line and close those "loop holes" in SP -- loopholes that were never a problem in SP as long as the AI wasn't playing like some hyper human opponent on-line anyway. This effectively says the AI isn't your opponent rather some on-line player with a thirst for breaking the spirit of the game is.

The fundamental questions you must answer in MP or SP are radically different from each other, as MP looks first at how to carefully limit player options in order to keep things "fair" between human players (this usually means a watered down system with fewer items that can be exploited) whereas good SP looks at how to ramp up the AI in order to keep the human player challenged. This usually means, too, a limit to the kinds of things the AI can handle (the workshop in SMAC had troubles, for instance, for the AI), but you are looking at that --the AI-- as the opponent and asking "Can the AI handle this?" rather than "Would human players abuse it?"

Brad's approach for the SP AI makes sense: Code it to recognize the gaming habits of the best SP players, which means monitoring those players habits long after release to keep tweaking the code. Sure, most players will never even need that much of a challenge, but it's there if the work up to it.

Don't get me wrong, I still say Civ 4 is a solid game, and I applaud the team for doing much, much better than Civ 3, but I think the decision to go MP from the ground up (along with the decision to do the pretty graphics thing) took us in a wrong-headed direction.

[Gufnork]

The AI surrendering is probably what annoys me the most. They expect me to stop my war because they have another flag? If another AI is dumb enough to accept a surrender from someone I'm beating they will suffer for their impudence. I am glad that they do surrender to you occasionally, saves me some of the cleanup burden, the part of the game I hate the most. But they should surrender to the one winning the war, not a neutral party on the other side of the galaxy.

One of my biggest beefs with this game is what everyone else for some weird reason praises, the AI. It's planet builds are stupid, they sent transports without any escort, they don't bring enough troops to conquer the planets, they declare wars that they cannot win. Once in several games have they even bothered to counter my weapon technology. I played a game on Painful without ever losing a ship. Why? My shield technology was too powerful and they didn't realize they could utilize other weaponry. They also ignore speed, meaning that even when the AI had better tech I could conquer his planets easily by evading his large fleets.

There are some things I like though. The alignment system and the race bonuses makes playing a different race a slightly different experience. No where near the level of SMAC, but still. The ship building system is very good, even if the combat movies are kinda sucky. The gradual increase in tech levels means that there are no huge tech differences, which means that no game is ever completly lost.

They've also found a nice balance to economy and production. You need to really consider how to develop your planets, if you build too many factories you won't afford to use them, too few and you're building too slow. I just wish you could decide a budget on a planetary basis, as it is it's a micromanagement nightmare. Especially since wasted social production points still cost. This leads to me often setting 100% military production and just emphasize social on the planets that needs it in times of low economy.

All in all it's a nice game and it'll keep me busy for a while. But it's no Civ 4.

[yin26]

But they should surrender to the one winning the war, not a neutral party on the other side of the galaxy.

I think this plays well in gameplay terms, even if it makes the game harder/last longer in a counter-intuitive way. Otherwise it's just a domino effect as you take that first civ over, rinse and repeat.

One of my biggest beefs with this game is what everyone else for some weird reason praises, the AI.

Out of curiosity, what level are you playing on? I'm still testing the AI but definitely *have* seen it alter its builds to counter my attacks. That's pretty good.

There are some things I like though...

All good points.

They've also found a nice balance to economy and production...

Indeed, I think this is a great, great factor. Forces some decisions on you.

All in all it's a nice game and it'll keep me busy for a while. But it's no Civ 4.

Keep me posted if you haven't already beaten the higher levels of the game. For me, of course, some of the "non Civ 4" elements --like getting rid of workers-- are what's leaning me away from Civ 4 anyway.

[Sirian]

Yin!

Originally posted by yin26
While I could try to avoid doing this, I'll likely be making Civ 4 comparisons all over the place.

That's only natural. They are the only two major entries in the genre at the moment.

I agree with your general assessment and most of your points. I disagree with some points, of course, and since you covered the rest, those are where I should elaborate.

* Although I haven't played long enough to see the repercussions, GalCiv's AI "doesn't cheat" though at higher levels it will get economic bonuses.

Not true. The GC2 AI knows where the habitable worlds are. The manual offers a line about "Stellar Cartography" but I have found as the human player that this only shows the LOCATION of planets on the minimap, not their quality. GC1 would show off the "yellow" stars, and habiable worlds can only appear at yellow stars, but in GC2 I can't see any difference for the stars on the minimap. The AI knows planet quality and beelines its colony ships straight at the best/nearest planets. Even if this ability is disabled for the Terran AI until it learns Stellar Cartography, that tech can be researched in the first couple of turns -- and the AI SHOULD be doing that if it starts blind. The rest of them cheat like mofos, as far as I can tell.

In a cramped environment, this is a crushing advantage on smaller maps. To compete fairly, the human player has to scout the map, learn spoiler info, then reload the game opening and beeline his own ships to the right locations. ... Or he has to play a non-cramped environment in which there is time enough to build some scouts to help determine where to go and how many colony ships to build or to send in certain directions.

The Civ4 AI actually has to scout and makes its decisions on info that is only available to players.

The GC2 AI -was- cutting the player a break in not using the fastest possible colony ship designs, but the 1.0X patch info says that this has changed, so now even on maps with more breathing room, the player will have to cheat (pre-scout the map) to compete on even terms in the Roach Race. ... This may not bother others, but it bothers me a lot. Stamping out asynchronous gameplay paths like this is a design priority of mine.

I'm all for comparisons. Competition raises the bar for everybody, and gamers will win. Those comparisons need to be accurate, though.

Now if Stellar Cartography would also simply REVEAL ALL STARS ON THE MAIN MAP, including their color and the ability to click on them and see how many habitable planets are there (though not their quality), that would go a long way to fixing things. (GC1 Stellar Cartography was reasonably useful.)

* In general, the AI just seems a lot more clever than you sometimes get in Civ4. For example, if you attack a civ that happens to be a strong trading partner of your friend, that friend might get involved to protect his economic interests.

I haven't seen any sign of this. My games have been played on Challenging, Crippling and now the highest level in the game, and the AIs are not forming any military blocs. They don't form military blocs in Civ4, either, but at least Civ4 limits the tech trading. On that highest level game, I have had the tech lead all game long, despite having about a third of the economic (spending) power of the average AI (and a fifth of the economic leader). GC2 AIs do have a few restrictions -- they won't sell weapons tech to the military leader, and they cap the price in cash they'll pay for anything -- but it hardly matters. I've gotten three fourths of the tech tree for free and pulled in tens of thousands in cash, which I burn at an exorbitant rate to keep up in actual production. (Spending and income are NOT MARRIED in GalCiv -- a mathematical strangeness that allows one to lean toward extra spending capacity at the expense of boosting income, and using tech trading income from raking the entire galaxy over the trading coals to play far more powerfully than the AIs.) The GalCiv AIs burn their initial cash on rushed Colony Ships and other goodies, and that's actually not very wise, except on really cramped maps where the Roach Race will end within the first dozen turns. A long, slow burn at 1-to-1 is generally stronger than a lightning burn up front at heavy penalty.

* There are no workers in GalCiv2!

No, but there is the spending slider and the emphasize buttons, which are intensive with micromanagement.

There is also an intensive need for scouting, and more so on the larger maps. ... You will appreciate the full depth of the AIs' advantage when you see a Minor Civ beeline its constructors straight for a resource half a galaxy away, when it launched those AHEAD of its Scouts.

Civ has a big need for scouting too, but softens it quite a bit with map trading enabled in the midgame. GalCiv requires you to micro your scouting all the way through! (In fairness, I haven't tried the Autoscout feature. MAYBE that can save some effort, though probably at the cost of adding more scouting ships and still needing to micro some of them).

* Another aspect of the ship design thing is that the AI is superb at maximizing the rock-paper-scissors dynamic.

My jury is still out on this point. One thing you will notice is that the AIs stay bunched in a pack. They all know the same techs, either from all researching the same things, or from lots of AI-AI tech trading, or both. You as player can gain unique advantage by researching up lines the AIs ignore and hoarding your monopoly techs. You usually don't have to break ANY of your own monopolies. Just keep shuffling techs between the AIs and pick up their new discoveries at no net cost to yourself. If they break one of your monopolies, you can then jump on that and sell it around to the others for techs you may need, or cash, or set them up to prevent cross-trading and leave some of the majors in the hole.

With the AIs knowing the same techs, they are locked in to certain weapon/defense combinations for large chunks of the game. You can see what they are going to build based on what they have. Yet player can spend a few turns on 100% research and shoot up any single branch to a medium term monopoly advantage on techs none of the AIs know, build a round of ships and field them before the AI can do anything about it. Since every AI on the board has the same batch of techs, ONE design approach for the Human beats them all. ... It is, in its implementation, far short of the potential that the elegance of the design invites you to imagine.

This is why I am so rabidly anti-tech-trade. Clever players will figure it out, spread the word, and then the elite within the community end up pushing the game balance around, as the designer tries to nerf this and fix that, to little avail as the core diplomatic design is an open book.

The underlying design is solid, though. It's the AI that is falling down. An AI that is too willing to trade -- with one another as well as the player -- comes out in that "tech pack" effect. ... Civ3 suffered the same problem, though the 1.5x monopoly sale cost kludge stopped some of the bleeding there.

* As for the interface (something I was rather harsh on Civ4 about), I'd say GalCiv does a marginally better job at making a wealth of information easy to access.

This point deserves special attention. The information on hand is extensive, but you do have to pay Espionage costs to get your hands on it. BIG espionage costs. The info is clear and well packaged. I use it constantly to calibrate my short term objectives.

Civ4's tech trading screen is the one key thing I miss, though. Having to speak to every AI (on practically every turn) once just to see what the current "state of the art" is for each AI and get a sense of which trades to make to maximize my advantage, well... It's quite tedious, as is the "broker" interface of having to check all kinds of numbers until finding the green/red edge. That stuff could be, should be fully automated. When you have lined up your techs and their techs and want to "make up the difference" in cash, there should be a single button to press that goes directly to the min/max amount, and saves the player the tedium of babysitting it.

* I can't yet speak to what I think is the most important comparison between Civ4 and GalCiv2 -- an interesting end game.

GalCiv1 had the longest end game of any entry ever in the genre -- and I still enjoyed it for fifty games. GalCiv2 seems to do a lot better in wars not being as certain, in loss of relations with AIs not being as steep and predestined, and in obtaining good relations not being as easy. That's a good start to fixing things. Certainly you CAN avoid the mop-up of having to conquer every last planet by either making some allies along the way or spamming the board with culture. However, building up lots of cultural starbases is very repetitive. And you still have to wipe out any AIs you can't persuade to your alliance, to win by diplomacy.

Civ4 actually lets you off the hook a lot sooner. You can build the UN and declare yourself victor with 60% of the world's population, or build the spaceship. Plus GalCiv's expansion phase is over VERY early, as planets are grab as grab can right up front, and then all expansion is over except via conquest or culture from there on.

Flipping planets by culture is actually doable, though, since the AIs all collectively neglect both the Influence techs and building up their Influence starbases with multiple cultural Modules. This is in part due to a weak AI, and you can magnify the effect by choosing Influence picks at launch or the Pacifist political party. If you go all out on culture, then all you have to do to win is stay #1 in Military Rating (the AIs both fear and like you more if you lead in military) until however long it takes you to build enough Influence bases and flip enough planets to win by Influence.

* I should also note that in GalCiv2, there seems to be very little of the "I just researched these units and already they are obsolete" syndrome found in Civ4.

Play a larger galaxy, it's in there.

There is an option for slowing the tech rate, though. I'm going to try that in my next game of Gigantic and see if it plays better.

Besides, that complaint about Civ4 mystifies me. I think a lot of it is leftover Civ3 habits from returning players. They are used to having larger armies, so wait longer than necessary to train a similar number of units instead of getting out there and using the units they have. I have had little trouble making use of any era of units in Civ4.

In fact, in GalCiv, learning even one of the myriads of military techs can render a whole generation of ships obsolete. I've found myself deliberately avoiding upgrading ship designs again and again, purposely eating a disadvantage over what I could have if I went through even more micro.

Our differences on this point may revolve around playing under different conditions. I'm not only playing on the larger maps, with higher than default fertility, but also playing with high level AIs, who research things a lot faster (and then give them to me for free or nearly so as I shuffle techs back and forth between them). My tech pace may be six or eight times faster than yours or more. ... In the right situation, you may be correct about the tech pace. BUT this is not something inherent to GalCiv2 vs Civ4, but to the particulars of your chosen game settings.

* I'll conclude by saying that I am still too wet behind the ears to declare GalCiv2 the winner over Civ4.

They're both good games. In the end, I prefer Civ4 primarily because it offers an extended expansion phase (can't grow too fast, don't have to spam the colony ships), involves a lot less micromanagement, and has fewer situations with only one right choice. GalCiv2 hits a lot of gameplay niches that Civ4 doesn't, though, so strategy game fans should get both. Some will prefer one or the other, but most will enjoy both.



Wow, interesting comment here:

Originally posted by yin26
By the way, another reason I think GalCiv will ultimately beat out Civ4 as a better game for me is Brad's approach to multiplayer as explained here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...750#post4244750 Simply put, he decided not to the let the minority players (MP) force a lesser game down the throats of the majority (SP). We see clearly that Civ4 --for marketing reasons or whatever-- went the other way. I understand and respect the MPers who are having a great time with Civ 4 on-line, but Firaxis has held SP hostage by this decision.

That's probably getting in to territory where I need to lay low, but in general a quick comment: Multiplayer is far more demanding on game balance. SP in Civ4 was certainly not held hostage by anything. The only difference between SP and MP in the game rules is the AI, and Civ4's AI was not shortchanged.

GalCiv's wide open racial options would have been the first casualty of multiplayer. The more vectors in play and the looser the leash, the more radically superior some options become. Certain picks become "must have" as they did in Master of Orion II multiplayer, and others are discarded to the galactic trash heap. You might think that fewer options would be bad, but improved game balance adds replayability to the existing options. This becomes a question of breadth or depth, and there IS something good to be said for depth. A game that can stand up to the rigors of long term multiplayer exposure will actually turn out to be a better single player game as a result, in terms of replayability. In going for more options, you can trade in game balance for exploration, where most of the options are only worth playing once and then the suspense is gone and boredom will set in. Both types of games have their place. It's a question of design priority, with right answers in both directions.


- Sirian

[yin26]

Sirian!

As always, you have elevated the level of discussion. I'm thrilled you stopped in as I think I've learned some things. Of course, there are a few comments, but this was a great exchange

Not true. The GC2 AI knows where the habitable worlds are.

Indeed, somehow I didn't know this. You are right that this is a huge advantage for the AI. Of course, the minimap starts by showing you ghosts of all the systems, so you aren't entirely in the dark, so to speak. Nevertheless, I agree with you.

They don't form military blocs in Civ4, either, but at least Civ4 limits the tech trading.

That is a good point, though I see surrendering as a kind of lame duck forming an alliance. I also think the tech trading is a bit easy and fast, then again a lot of the trading surrounds things like missles that now weight one unit less...in Civ, techs means TECHS. In GalCiv2, techs mean (baby) techs more often than not.

No, but there is the spending slider and the emphasize buttons, which are intensive with micromanagement.

Perhaps you are just a better player (well, I know you are), but I kind of fire and forget on those sliders. Sure, when I'm in a war or going back to peace I revisit these things. You play more like the computer does, I bet...and the computer never gets tired of adjusting sliders.

You will appreciate the full depth of the AIs' advantage when you see a Minor Civ beeline its constructors straight for a resource half a galaxy away, when it launched those AHEAD of its Scouts.

That would suck.

GalCiv requires you to micro your scouting all the way through! (In fairness, I haven't tried the Autoscout feature. MAYBE that can save some effort, though probably at the cost of adding more scouting ships and still needing to micro some of them).

Once you colonize the nearby planets (again, you can see the ghosts, so it's not a big guessing game), I just put 3 or 4 scouts on auto and call it a day. On larger maps, I'd add more scouts, like you say. I tend to do that in Civ, too. Maybe not as effective, but I don't like to be bothered too much with that kind of micro. I will say, though, that units often overlap their auto scouting, and that's pretty poor.

With the AIs knowing the same techs, they are locked in to certain weapon/defense combinations for large chunks of the game. You can see what they are going to build based on what they have.

Excellent point, one mitigated to some degree by the fact that techs take baby steps (even when you are "far" down a tree it's still often not FAR down overall). However, I agree this part of the game should be watched carefully.

Civ3 suffered the same problem, though the 1.5x monopoly sale cost kludge stopped some of the bleeding there.

I hope Brad visits this thread.

Civ4's tech trading screen is the one key thing I miss, though. Having to speak to every AI (on practically every turn) once just to see what the current "state of the art" is for each AI and get a sense of which trades to make to maximize my advantage, well... It's quite tedious, as is the "broker" interface of having to check all kinds of numbers until finding the green/red edge. That stuff could be, should be fully automated. When you have lined up your techs and their techs and want to "make up the difference" in cash, there should be a single button to press that goes directly to the min/max amount, and saves the player the tedium of babysitting it.

Agreed, except I'll say in Civ 4 you have to exit coversations with each individual leader. In GalCiv, you just click the arrow and cycle through them all in a heartbeat. Like you say, though, bartering for cash is annoying and could be done in one click.

GalCiv1 had the longest end game of any entry ever in the genre -- and I still enjoyed it for fifty games. GalCiv2 seems to do a lot better in wars not being as certain, in loss of relations with AIs not being as steep and predestined, and in obtaining good relations not being as easy. That's a good start to fixing things.

Glad to hear! Can't wait to see end games.

Civ4 actually lets you off the hook a lot sooner. You can build the UN and declare yourself victor with 60% of the world's population, or build the spaceship. Plus GalCiv's expansion phase is over VERY early, as planets are grab as grab can right up front, and then all expansion is over except via conquest or culture from there on.

I don't mind a long end game as long as the result is up in the air. You are right, though, about the expansion phase in GalCiv2 being brutal and quick. I don't mind that much, though. The expansion phase in all these games sometimes reminds me more of the lottery than anything else, and I'm happy to get things locked in and work on larger strategy.

Flipping planets by culture is actually doable, though, since the AIs all collectively neglect both the Influence techs and building up their Influence starbases with multiple cultural Modules.

Hmmm. I haven't tried that win yet. Guess I'll avoid it and hope the AI gets programmed to handle it.

Our differences on this point may revolve around playing under different conditions.

I don't mean to say my units in Civ4 are useless, but perhaps in large part because of the graphics, you see your muskets up against rifles and you think "Man, this sucks." In reality, you're still O.K. if you buy time and use the units properly...but the psychological impact is greater in Civ 4.

They're both good games. In the end, I prefer Civ4 primarily because it offers an extended expansion phase (can't grow too fast, don't have to spam the colony ships), involves a lot less micromanagement, and has fewer situations with only one right choice. GalCiv2 hits a lot of gameplay niches that Civ4 doesn't, though, so strategy game fans should get both. Some will prefer one or the other, but most will enjoy both.

Yeah, we just differ on some things. Like I said, a short expansion phase is fine with me, and as long as I don't over worry my sliders or feel the need to micro my scouts, etc., I feel a LOT less micro in GalCiv2 just by getting rid of those blasted workers. Add in governors and rally points, and I think Civ 4 really drags by comparison. Of course, you CAN micro like crazy in GalCiv2, but you don't have to, either. To me, that's a strength. Then again, you're playing on much higher levels, so some of my lazy approach might bite me later.

The only difference between SP and MP in the game rules is the AI, and Civ4's AI was not shortchanged.

I need to lay low a little on this as well, but to the degree that MP general limits features that can be exploited by players, it also guides SP into making an AI that can handle the available options. On this we agree. On the larger "MP first" front, though, I'll decline to say more at this point.

It's a question of design priority, with right answers in both directions.

Absolutely. Good ideas in both games. I think Brad took some good stuff from Civ, and I hope Civ returns the favor.

Always a pleasure, Sirian.

--Yin

[Sirian]

Originally posted by yin26
a lot of the rading surrounds things like missles that now weight one unit less...in Civ, techs means TECHS.

Tech means tech in GalCiv, too.

Those engines that weigh a unit less? They let you fit an extra weapon or engine or defense on to the ship. In the early going, that may mean going from one weapon to two (doubling your offensive power) or from one engine boost to two (pushing speed from 3 to 5, for instance, which after the +1 boost from Impule engines is a net 1/3rd gain in speed.)

That +5 boost to Influence? Taking your bonus from +20 to +25? That's only a 20% net gain in boost, but sometimes that is the amount that starts pushing back the AI's border. You push past their planet and gain control over the local space around their planet and next thing you know, you've DOMINATED the influence there and the AI planet is now deep inside your vastly expanded border.

+10 to Speed is kind of bogus, as it is really +1 speed. Going from Ion to Impulse engines adds +1 speed to every ship you own, which turns a 1 speed ship in to a 2 speed ship!

You're not utilizing the software to its fullest potential yet. Those small bits of advantage can be commanding if used well. Push on them a bit harder, such as dedicating a beeline up a certain branch for several levels of advantage there, and you can mop the floors with them. If their whole fleet is packing one type of weapon, you can spend a couple of turns upgrading your defense vs that type and sure, they can start building other ships types, but meanwhile, their entire existing force is obsolete vs your ships. The human player can do things like park his most experienced couple of fleets and some transports near his target's borders, pull a mass upgrade to state of the art tech, wait the turn or two for the upgrades to complete, then slam the enemy. Each victory only makes the attacking ships more experienced (giving them more hit points), and that can snowball. Even if you lose one or two, if you down multiple FLEETS of the enemy in the process and rip in to his gut and start taking worlds, you can press that advantage before the AI has time to counter, since the AI won't (as far as I can tell) run 100% military production when its life is on the line. The human can and will. I spend the whole game tilting back and forth.

Nothing is quite as powerful as the 100% tech beeline to make a significant leap, followed by the 100% military production lean to churn out a generation of the new ships and send them straight in to battle. The AIs don't see it coming, and if you have intel on them, you can SEE what they have at their planets and what their exact strength is, etc.

GalCiv has a lot of subtleties, but the tech is not nearly as incremental as you describe. You're underwhelmed by the surface math but not paying attention to the ratio math, the quantum leaps. They are actually more significant than Civ because Civ has fudge features like City Defense Bonus, terrain and fortify bonuses, that will cover for someone behind in tech, up to a point. In GalCiv, if you are behind in tech you are in serious trouble.

I kind of fire and forget on those sliders.

There's a lot to gain from microing them in the opening. I mean down to the penny. It's not as much about savings as about time. You've got X production available and you need to shave off turns by minimizing waste. Minimized waste means a fraction of production put toward research. Every turn you save in the Roach Race can make or break a planet grab. I've certainly won over half a dozen planet grabs by half a turn now, and lost a few by the same margin.

There's too much value in planting your flag. You are FORCED to respect any planted flag until you get to Planetary Invasion tech. You can go there fairly straightaway but the AI does not do that, so you can spam the colony ships and run ZERO military for a long long time. Try that in Civ4!

I don't mess with the sliders all the time later on, but there are still times when you have to micro. If you aren't going to research a followup tech for a long time, you want to micro the tech slider to minimize overflow. If you have a powerhouse production planet, you want to micro the military production so that X turns per ship are done with minimal waste. (The wrong number, say going short of the target by a couple of units per turn, not only cuts your actual production rate from that planet to 1/(X + 1) down from 1/X, but also simply wastes the overflow, so you are spending almost as much but getting a lot less for it!) The difference between a ship every two turns out of your best planet vs every three turns and a lot of waste may cost you a quarter of your fleet!

That would suck.

Actually, having the Minors reach resources is a huge crutch for the player. Player can declare on minors with minimal consequences, on timing of his choosing. The Majors are slow to attack the Minors so you can always (in GC2, that I've seen) take away starbases or the home planet from any minor, whenever you are ready. Of course if you wait for them to build Capital buildings first, you get free extra Economic and Manufacturing capitals. The Minors are the biggest lever in the game. Use them to trade techs early and for cash and planets later, plus as "holding companies" on resources until you are ready to build a Constructor for each resource they are holding and go grab them. You need to scout really well first, though, or you may free up a guarded resource in the fog somewhere to hand to a Major -- which is a Major Oops.

Those poor Minors have big "Kick Me" signs on their back. They exist as food to nourish the human player's civ -- or the AIs, if you are too slow about your dinner plans. You can be incredibly evil to the Minors and still be a Good alignment. One of those things about the game. (I shouldn't describe how evil you can really be. These guys are living and breathing doormats!)

Hmmm. I haven't tried that win yet. Guess I'll avoid it and hope the AI gets programmed to handle it.

In GC1 they were oblivious. Now they can use this game system offensively, and to a limited degree on defense, but cannot handle the full court press. ... That's probably a good thing, though. When the game is well and truly over, let it end quickly.

On the larger "MP first" front, though, I'll decline to say more at this point.

Some games put MP first. Quake is one of those, and well it should. That's not the same as "MP integrated from the start." Imagine being an SP player and hearing that SP was tacked on to the MP engine after the fact. Would that encourage you to get excited about that kind of SP?

I'm not a Civ MP player because my clock runs faster. I need more intensive periods of action interspersed with periods of rest or ease. FPS is my perfect MP speed, since you can pause and rest after any death, or stop and listen and watch and wait for a moment. In RTS and in TBS MP, you have to stay on top of it all the time.

The lone exception I remember was Deadlock, with its three minute turns and very limited playfields. I owned the ladder for that game when it came out in 1996: first TBS with organized online play. Games couple play out in two hours, three hours tops. I had no trouble working within that turn timer and could even rest for a few moments at the end of less busy turns. RTS and Civ MP have too many things going on. You have to formulize your play and it takes a lot of practice and repetition. Repetition is generally not what I want from gaming. It feels too much like work for me. Deadlock was formulaic and repetitive, too, and it was a smaller game. Been there, done that.

Civ4 MP actually offers lots of variety: maps, traits, but then the less formulaic, the more time you need to think through the new situations. This clashes with the MP culture, which pushes things to higher speed play -- and necessarily so, because you can't take six hours for a game. I wish I could tell you what positive impacts Civ4 MP had on the quality of the SP, but... I can't do that, as you know.

I think Brad took some good stuff from Civ...

Brad is a true player. He seems to have borrowed the MOO2 uber- race gimmick without also wrecking his entire title in the process, and that is a feat of indescribable proportion. Neither MOO2 nor MOO3 came close. They both went down the tubes, victims of their infatuation with their own "cool ideas".

The one thing Civ has had going for it, though, is a new designer with each iteration. Then you get blind spots in different areas. The same guy working on the same sequence of titles tends to produce blind spots in the same areas over and over again. ... QV: John Carmack's games.


Oh, and one more thing. The AIs surrendering vacates their starbases. In my current game, Torians had a JUICED UP pimpmobile of a base on the Military Resource. If they could be allowed to keep that even after their planets are gone, that would be a royal pain. They DON'T keep bases after they lose all planets, but maybe they should. Anyway, they surrendered to the Arceans, two planets (I took the other seven already) and their super-charged starbase went poofies, and now I have control over a Military Resource. ... This spells nothing but Pain for the rest of my targets. Sometimes AIs who surrender make things easier on you, even when they surrender to someone else!


- Sirian

[Gufnork]

Out of curiosity, what level are you playing on? I'm still testing the AI but definitely *have* seen it alter its builds to counter my attacks. That's pretty good.

Masochistic. I started on Painful then Crippling, now Masochistic.

Not true. The GC2 AI knows where the habitable worlds are.

I've heard people say this, but I haven't bothered to check for myself. I still win any space race on larger maps. But I know they're not supposed to. If they do, it's a bug.

After reading this and other reviews, I think I've come up with something. This is a very good game for the casual player. Those of us who generally start every new TBS game on the highest difficulty and always find the best way to play the game rather quickly finds this game rather dull. It's all about micromanagement. The AI may be a good challenge for the average player, but on higher difficulties it's very lacking. I've never seen anyone who wins regularily on Crippling or above say that this is a good game. I've never seen anyone playing on Tough or below say it's a bad one.

[yin26]

Tech means tech in GalCiv, too.

I agree, of course, but I merely am talking about degrees. You *can* get to the point where you add an extra weapon, but that's usually at least a weight of 7 or so (from what I've seen so far), so there isn't just that one big jump in tech that gets you there --well, getting bigger hulls is pretty dramatic-- but a series of smaller techs. I think Civ4 _needs_ to have the breaks on tech trading, getting tech from taking cities, etc., for a reason. There the jumps are simply too big to give tech away. That said, I agree with you from what I've seen that tech whoring is a bit too easy in GalCiv2, and I hope Brad hears from you and others.

You're not utilizing the software to its fullest potential yet...I spend the whole game tilting back and forth.

I admire your penchant for detail and focus, but I just make the decision not to squeeze every ounce out of every turn. This speaks more to the fact that I have a hectic home life at this phase (two little kids, a homestay student, etc.), and I play the game for that fuzzy fun factor, drawing only to perhaps a surface degree on what my gaming experience might allow me to do if I really put my mind to it. That said, I think gamers such as yourself are *critical* for Brad to understand how the system needs tweaking, and if I ever work my way up the difficulty levels via great micro, I'll be glad you helped tweak the formulas.

Nothing is quite as powerful as the 100% tech beeline to make a significant leap, followed by the 100% military production lean to churn out a generation of the new ships and send them straight in to battle. The AIs don't see it coming, and if you have intel on them, you can SEE what they have at their planets and what their exact strength is, etc.

Actually, I've already seen that. The player should suffer more by beelining at the expense of a wider tech net being cast...and this gets back to your point about the ease of tech trading.

In GalCiv, if you are behind in tech you are in serious trouble.

Lacking enough experience, I'll grant you this point. Civ does favor the defender in a number of ways, so there is likely work that can be done here.

There's a lot to gain from microing them in the opening. I mean down to the penny.

I grant this but don't have the desire to do it, I guess. Maybe when life eases up for me???

There's too much value in planting your flag. You are FORCED to respect any planted flag until you get to Planetary Invasion tech.

Good point. There is a consistent theme, I'd say, in people wanting a more interesting early game, and this fits in there.

The difference between a ship every two turns out of your best planet vs every three turns and a lot of waste may cost you a quarter of your fleet!

Indeed. When I find myself losing on higher levels, I'll understand why!

Actually, having the Minors reach resources is a huge crutch for the player. Player can declare on minors with minimal consequences, on timing of his choosing.

Yeah, I recall abusing them in GalCiv1, too. We should be able to turn them off (or make them less open to abuse).

FPS is my perfect MP speed, since you can pause and rest after any death, or stop and listen and watch and wait for a moment. In RTS and in TBS MP, you have to stay on top of it all the time.

Agreed. I had to leave my AOK clan when my then 2-year old was caught behind me trying to pour grape juice in the VCR.

I wish I could tell you what positive impacts Civ4 MP had on the quality of the SP, but... I can't do that, as you know.

I've seen some, can imagine many. But it's a trade off no SP person (the majority, as Brad rightly notes) takes lightly.

The one thing Civ has had going for it, though, is a new designer with each iteration. Then you get blind spots in different areas.

You also run the risk of whack-a-mole: Fixed this issue finally but took a step backward on one that was was working just fine previously. That said, I think Soren was outstanding in closing a lot of blind spots while accentuating strengths (sometimes with new content).

Oh, and one more thing. The AIs surrendering vacates their starbases.

Hmmm, if they surrender, those bases should go to the new owner, too! That definitely needs to be fixed post-haste.

[yin26]

Masochistic. I started on Painful then Crippling, now Masochistic.

O.K. You're way ahead of me then, Gufnork.

I think I've come up with something. This is a very good game for the casual player.

To some degree, of course, that will be true of any game, but in a game where extreme micro can uncover so many ways to cripple the AI, this seems especially true. I bet, though, Brad will find ways to optimize the game for players like you and Sirian...which will be great for players like me when/if we get really serious. This is, I'll concede, one of those areas where having massive MP data coming back at you can feed back readily into the SP AI experience. I hope and think, though, that Brad will be watching the Metaverse and other player feedback closely sans MP.

[yin26]

To quickly change your ship build, click the "planet info" button, first one to the left on the bottom. This brings up a listing of all your planets with a ton of info including current social and ship builds. Simply double-click the line showing the ship build and it will give you a quick build list with which you can quickly change to a different ship.

By the way, I meant to thank bonscott for this tip.

The constant "*** for tat" with the AI on ship technology is awesome (which they do even on normal)...It's an awesome stratigic part of the game that doesn't get enough press and Civ 4 just can't compete here.

Indeed. As Sirian notes, of course, there are some ways to abuse the AI, but in my casual approach so far, it's been fun.

[Sirian]

Originally posted by yin26

I bet, though, Brad will find ways to optimize the game for players like you and Sirian...which will be great for players like me...

Brad tried that approach in GC1. ABC was perceived as too strong, so got the nerf bat. Then DEF was suddenly too strong, so that got whacked. Then GHI was too strong. Talk about whack-a-mole! Lots of updates can work against you, providing a constantly moving target that players have to learn and relearn -- and for what? Slay one giant, another rises to take its place.

You can't reach balance by plugging holes. Balance is achieved through cohesive vision, not piecemeal via giant slaying.

For all that Brad claims that he has left out multiplayer, I find the reality to be something else. The Metaverse IS multiplayer, and he warped GalCiv1 over and over again trying to keep the Metaverse afloat.

Multiplayer is by definition any gaming activity involving multiple players. That isn't the classic industry definition, which is feature-based and is steeped in the programmer's mentality. I'm forwarding a broader definition that accounts for the new reality. Sizable communities revolving around playing single player games as a group activity are a recent phenomenon and the industry can be slow to integrate new concepts.

The Metaverse is a ladder. It's a competitive ladder without head-to-head gaming, but still competitive. Competition, by definition, is multiplayer. One player "competing" against nobody at all is single player.

So now what we are facing is a game that revolves around the Metaverse, revolves around multiplayer far more than Civ4 ever has or will. Who is there to give Brad the feedback? It's the most passionate, dedicated players. In the din of the open forums, the sweeping tides of the elite will drive the update process.

To maintain a Metaverse, you need an extremely well balanced game. You need a game that can stand up to the most extreme multiplayer rigors. Civ4 could not stack up to that challenge and did not try. The Metaverse is in fact an MMO, if you think it through. It's not much different than Guild Wars, where players play in small isolated groups then intermingle in community spaces. Brad's adaptations to try to keep the MMO on course are not significantly different from the constant updates that more interactive MMOs provide. Like other MMOs, only those willing to dedicate extraordinary amounts of time to the level grind will be able to compete for the top spots, for the fame and the glory.

Complex scoring systems will always be full of holes. I personally believe Civ4's scoring system is useless for single player and wish it wasn't there. It would not do any better than GC2's scoring and might do worse, in a Metaverse environment. Yet Score, the raw numbers, is what drives the Metaverse, and the most elite players drive the score. Constantly moving the goalposts each time the top players decipher the latest patch is a futile chase that will do more harm than good to the true single player game. Some things can be fixed (like the bug that I found with the planetary projects) but some things they are just going to have to live with. Futzing around with the tech trading (for instance) at this point is likely to unravel way more than it can fix. You can't apply a bandaid to a bullet wound.

Metaverse is a workable recipe as a design priority but is not compatible with a design priority of vastly different gameplay paths. These clash, and one or the other (or both) will give out.

There are, for instance, many of the startup options that are on the weaker side. None of the Metaverse competitors will be playing those. The ladder players who are chasing score will seek out the few options that score the most the fastest and replay those over and over again. That's what happened in GC1. I hit the scene right after Brad revamped the whole scoring system to give a LOT more points for playing the highest difficulty. (Leading metaverse players were winning Beginner games in fifteen minutes on a pat formula and racking up dozens of these games per day to pad their score, so Brad had to take that away and instead reward those who could beat the hardest scenarios.) I rose to the front page of the leaderboard, but I was posting games all over the spectrum: good, evil, all galaxy sizes, all habitability ratings, all victory types, exploring the whole game and reporting whatever happened. Most of the other top scorers were perfecting one gameplay formula and turning in the same high scoring results over and over and over: military conquest on the largest map size.

I hope Brad leans the other way, away from trying to perfect the Metaverse. He's caught in the trap he thinks he has avoided: the trap of multiplayer as top design priority. It drove his patch process in GC1 and he's set up to travel that road again.


- Sirian

[yin26]

I had a different vision in mind when thinking about the Metaverse (one, simply, where he could begin to ferret out some of the top players and learn from their patterns). Certainly if he feels compelled to close the ludicrus loop holes of patented abuse just so some Internet score/rank seems "fair," then I see that as a huge waste of time.

In the same way I see some Civ 4 decisions taking that same path. What does it matter to the vast majority of SP players if 1% of the audience is out there (excuse me for saying this, but it's how I feel) with NO LIFE working on ways to abuse the system to get 100 more points? You worked on the game from all directions, and that's to be admired. Feedback from folks like you should drive REASONABLE attempts to close problems.

But, I say, let's not have the 1% drive GalCiv's development from here. Use Metaverse to capture some good AI routines for SP and, to the extent that it doesn't become the driving force, make Metaverse scoring seem decently fair. Frankly, anybody getting in a pissing contest on Metaverse should walk outside and smoke something. It would be healthier.

[Gufnork]

1% is an overly exaggerated figure. Based on the metaverse numbers only 30-40 people could care only about the scores (if there are more, they're incompetent). There will be more in time, I'm sure, but it will still be very, very small part of the community. I haven't seen anything that hints at balancing based on the metaverse, but then again I don't understand the scoring system at all, since I haven't tried deciphering it. I treat it as a way of showing off my victories, having beaten the game on the highest difficulty is more impressive than a high score. The bug that displays my crippling and my masochistic victories as normal is rather annoying though.

But after just winning my Masochistic game with relative ease (once I realized that I could ignore one front where I was fighting three civs without receiving noticable losses), the main weakness of this game is it's lacking AI. Another game has failed to challenge the player without the use of obscene bonuses.

[yin26]

Sure, 1% is hyperbole. But even if it's 10-20%, it's still too small to be the driving force of hunting down silly abuses. I think the idea of Metaverse to show off simply beating the game at certain levels a certain number of times is one thing. Tying that to score is another mess entirely. Frankly, I'd kill score completely and just show who has beaten the game how many times and at what settings. Perhaps you could also show how long or how many turns this took...NOT as part of a ranking score but just as information for the public to consider when looking at your wins. For example, if I see somebody finishing games in 15 turns, I could assume something gimicky is going on there.

Kill score. Keep raw data. Let the fans figure out the rest.

[EternalSpark]

What GC2 needs is a clear, precise, and understandable economy system.

Clear - This one is obvious. Most people are not understanding the economy system.

Precise - Frogboy admitted that most of the things we're having trouble with were tested by "feel". Mistake! My research bonus is said to be 50%, but I'm really only getting 25%. Civ games have done so well because a player can see the results of his actions - if I build a mine, I will get 3 more hammers. In GC2, this isn't possible.

Understandable - No, paying for social when you're not using it isn't understandable. It makes no sense.

[tetley]

Play-balancing by feel I think is fine, but at the end of the day you have to correctly document your end result.

Are you talking 50% research as in, the +50 research ability? That only gives you +25%?

[EternalSpark]

Are you talking 50% research as in, the +50 research ability? That only gives you +25%?

Yeah.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Sirian

Some things can be fixed (like the bug that I found with the planetary projects) but some things they are just going to have to live with. Futzing around with the tech trading (for instance) at this point is likely to unravel way more than it can fix. You can't apply a bandaid to a bullet wound.

I really agree with most of what Sirian has to say, but I have to disagree pretty strongly that the tech trading in GC2 can't be fixed. If I had to pick one single change from Civ3 to Civ4 that is the most important and successful, it's that they did a much better job in Civ4 of getting tech trading "right". The "rules" of trading are more or less the same between Civ3 and Civ4. (OK, they eliminated "tech for gpt" to eliminate a bunch of problems related to that, and they eliminated tech trading altogether before Alphabet, which certainly improves the early game but is irrelevant in the middle and late game.) What changed is primarily that they did a much better job of "futzing around with" the AI trading algorithms, so that they can't be taken advantage of so easily. There's no reason that that couldn't be done in GC2 also, and it would make (my impression) quite a big difference.

I agree that the Metaverse is inherently problematical, and I hope that updates aren't driven solely by trying to make the Metaverse work, but the appropriate "tweaks" to tech trading are the same whether you're focusing on the Metaverse, or ignoring it, I think.

[MikeH]

Great thread guys.

Ordered this yesterday so should be with me for the weekend. Still have a lot of play to get out of Civ IV so not sure whether I'll install it immediately or not.

[yin26]

Mike: Install it! We need your feedback in this thread.

By the way, the latest GalCiv2 patch says: "AI pickier about what it trades with each other, this should satisfy most people who feel the AI isn’t careful about what it trades with each other and the player"

Let's so how that goes in my next game.

[MikeH]

Looks like it's not shipping 'till Saturday.

[Kinjiru]

Cancel your order Mike. DL directly from Stardock. You'll be playing in a couple hours!

[bonscott]

As mentioned above, the latest patch from Monday did a couple things with tech that should help. Not only did they make it pickier they also made an AI change to concentrate on certain lines of techs and to not be willing to trade military techs so much. This should hopefully see some of the AI's have different weapon specialties instead of nearly all the same. Time will tell and I'm sure Brad will adjust the AI some more. That's teh big thing that comes with the updates as it did in GC1, updated AI to act better.

[Barbazoul]

Hello there ! It's my first post in here.

First of all thank you for this very interesting thread.

I am however shocked by the way some players talk about the game. Because it is just that, a game ; you are supposed to get pleasure out of your gaming experience. It seems to me that some of you arent talking about a game but about a mathematical model of an economic system.

Im sorry, but for me, playing Galciv 2 isnt just knowing that my social production is the square root of my military multiplied by the age of Lord Kona's grandmother ! Id rather judge galciv 2 in terms of gameplay experience ; when i play galciv 2, i want to experiment an immersion in a fictional universe. And i just have to say that it succeeds (at least for me).
Playing on a large map with lots of civilizations, seeing starbases, traders, wars, lots of activity everywhere, communication everywhere, is what i get my pleasure from. I care for my empire, i hate some AIs, i like others, i love seeing my ugly ships roaming around the place...
I think it is very sad if all the pleasure you find in a game comes from analysing the best mathematical procedure to win a game in the shortest possible way.

I agree, it isnt perfect, and most of the flaws come from an obscure economic system. But it doesnt, in my opinion, spoil the game at all. It still succeeds in what a game is supposed to do : immerse you in an universe, in which you evolve and get pleasure doing so.
Because if you think about it, every computer strategy game is the same : mathematics. Eventually, you WILL win every game you play of any given computer strategy game, by analysing the mathematics that rule it underneath. That's why i dont think you can base a review on this aspect of galciv 2. It's worth mentioning for sure, as it can help developing the game further, thus increasing the pleasure gamers can get out of it, but it isn't, for most, the only thing to see when reviewing a game.


PS : Sirian, i tried to register at the Realms Beyond site but never got an email allowing me to validate my registration. Is it normal?
Will you organize events around galciv 2 (like the adventures for CIV) ? I think it could really allow fun games, with those well known Realms Beyond special rules...

PPS : Sorry for my English, it's not my native language.

[bonscott]

Barbazoul, nice post and I agree with you totally. I'm just playing the game and enjoying myself. I don't really care if X% of my social production is going to waste or whatnot. I'm just not worrying about it. I ruined GalCiv 1 for myself once I figured out the formula to win on Maso every time with the highest score. Took the entire fun out of the game and I never played it since. I have swore not to do that again with this game and just enjoy it until Elder Scrolls: Oblivion takes over my life.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Barbazoul
Hello there ! It's my first post in here.

Welcome to 'poly.

I am however shocked by the way some players talk about the game. Because it is just that, a game ; you are supposed to get pleasure out of your gaming experience.

While I totally agree with you as regards the philosophy I bring to my gaming experience, there are some who gain enjoyment through thoroughly dissecting the mechanics of a game in order to...

1. maximize their score or...
2. find the perfect way to win or...
3. just because they can.

Like you, I'd rather not know exactly how it works under the hood; I'd rather play and learn through playing what works well for me. Keep the calcs a mystery and I'm happy.

But, to each his own.

PPS : Sorry for my English, it's not my native language.

No apology necessary. Your post was clearer than many native english speakers on the internet.

[yin26]

Barbazoul: Nicely put. Your English is great. Of course, I completely understand those, like Sirian, who enjoy picking the game apart and understanding it down to the last detail in order to leverage maximal advantage. It's like the people who enjoy tearing cars apart to the frame. Thank God for those people! Of course, I just want to get in the car, turn on some good music, and have fun without worrying about gear differentials, the play in the suspension, etc. I want to "live" the car and not understand it necessarily.

bonscott: Ah, Oblivion. You and I seem to have similar gaming tastes. I'm really looking forward to that one.

I managed to wrap up my first game this morning before work. I had it on beginner just to play around, so it's unfair to evaluate the AI. I really wanted to focus on the UI, which is pretty good for how much information it presents, but it's still quirky at places. Hey, no big deal. Brad's on it.

I won by culture, and at least in this game, the moment I took over a civ, I got a huge culture boost in my region; by the fall of the second civ, the collective boost was running so high that planets were just ceding to me anyway (much, much more quickly than they ever do in Civ 4). I see this as a blessing and a curse: it meant a super fast end game (again, the AI was set to Sub-Normal, so I take that into account), which I think is great when you're the clear leader. Sirian likes that kind of ending as well (let the game end when it should). On the other hand, I'm not sure it's a victory condition I'll play often if the AI can't handle it.

Well, all of that is not saying much. I need to go for a much harder level and see what happens.

[Gufnork]

I just realized the ultimate anti AI weapon. A ship with maximum engines and a single gun. Place these around your empire and simply destroy any transports that comes your way. Congratulations, you're unbeatable.

yin, what you're talking about is another weakness of the game. The critical mass of influence. Once you've reached a certain amount of influence, it will just keep growing. Planet defection and pop growth are the cause of this. This saves me a lot of cleanup work, once you've hit that mass just make peace with everyone, sit back and watch the victory meter tick to 100%. This is the reason I expect most of my games to end in a cultural victory.