The Great wall??

[proviisori]

Maybe there is a thread discussing about this, but I'm just too lazy to find it.

Does anyone know why the Great wall is not in the game? IMO it's one of the most amazing construtions ever made by man. And it would look so cool on this new 3D map!!

I think it should be in a expansion pack... do you?

[JackRudd]

Depends what it does. More specifically, it depends what it does that doesn't make it stack stupidly well with Chichen Itza.

[proviisori]

one idea that I have is that the great wall would prevent any barbarian unit to enter you borders.
It would be very usefull when having raging barbs on.

[JackRudd]

Originally posted by Flamer(fin)
one idea that I have is that the great wall would prevent any barbarian unit to enter you borders.
It would be very usefull when having raging barbs on.

Too useful. With that one in, I'm playing Louis XIV every game.

[johnmcd]

I'd like as a 'circumnavigation' type wonder, triggered by a line of twenty occupied forts, or ten walled cities or something like that rather than a typical wonder.

[proviisori]

Originally posted by JackRudd

Too useful. With that one in, I'm playing Louis XIV every game.

well... it would cost at least as much as the pyramids and would only be good against the first barb units.. not more advanced ones.

[LordShiva]

Ah... Memories of the Civ 1 Great Wall. Now that was a superwonder.

[The keeper]

What if it gave all melee and archer units bonuses against barbs?

Not a great big stupid huge bonus - but about 25%. If they are on equal footing otherwise, it gives the person possessing the wall a distinct advantage. But, if the barb unit is better (archer v warrior), the bonus helps, but doesn't turn the tide.

Make it an early wonder. Perhaps come available with mining. If not, masonry. And make it have low hammer cost with double production speed with stone (ala stonehenge)

[Yosho]

Actually, the main goal of the great wall in history was to slow down highly mobile enemies, so what about

Great Wall

All enemy units require 2 full turns of movement to enter your terratory, and 2 full turns to leave your terratory.

Obsolete with rifiling.

[Urban Ranger]

The Great Wall was built at least twice. The earier one was rammed earth. The latter one was rammed earth with bricks. So it has nothing to do with stone

It's effects are also hard to define. Maybe it gives your units +25% defense (only) and zone of control.

It should be pretty expensive.

The early one is obsolete with rifling, but you can upgrade it (i.e. buld the better version providing if you have the first one) and the second one is obsolete with tanks or something like that.

Also it does not belong to any one city, it belongs to your country. So you can't lose it until somebody completely conquers your country.

[proviisori]

...so it would be a project like SS. It would be interesting to have a multi-city wonder earlier than modern era.

I hope guys from Firaxis are reading these threads.

[Adagio]

An idea for the Great Wall I had some time ago was to make it give an extra +15% defense bonus for your units when inside the territory you had the turn it was finished (the wall will be shown along the borders)
If you take some land after it was built you don't get the bonus there
This way there'll be more consideration about when to build it, should I finish it ASAP, or should I wait for a little more land?

[johnmcd]

Originally posted by Adagio
An idea for the Great Wall I had some time ago was to make it give an extra +15% defense bonus for your units when inside the territory you had the turn it was finished (the wall will be shown along the borders)
If you take some land after it was built you don't get the bonus there
This way there'll be more consideration about when to build it, should I finish it ASAP, or should I wait for a little more land?

Not sure about the effect but I really like the mechanism for it.

[Badtz Maru]

Considering the purpose of the Great Wall was not to keep invaders out, but to make it difficult for them to escape with their loot, they should make the Great Wall wonder reduce or eliminate the gold invaders get from pillaging.

[LordShiva]

If we really want to make the effect similar to what the intended effect was IRL, then whoever builds the Great Wall should get a +2 boost in their "Secure in penis size" score...

[proviisori]

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
Considering the purpose of the Great Wall was not to keep invaders out, but to make it difficult for them to escape with their loot...

That's one of the theories. The more conventional theory is indeed to keep Northern barbarians out.

[Last Conformist]

Civ Wonders never aimed to be realistic, did they?

[player1]

Well I guess the main reason why it isn't wonder anymore is that it can't relly "fit" to the city, like it's required to all wonders in Civ4 (so they could be shown on game map).

If it was made like project (just sounds weird) or maybe made like something unique then it could work.

[Tokyo Sexwale]

I've been wondering (npi) where The Great Wall went since the earlier versions of Civ... I think it's pretty important, as a kid I knew about it long before I'd heard of the Parthenon or Oracle, for example. (Then there's that whole "only man-made structure that can be seen from the moon" idea - which is apparently not true, you can't see it.)

There's nothing that helps you specifically against Barbs and barbs are always a huge thorn in my side (damn another pun, not doing this on purpose) so my vote would be a continent-wide (inside your borders) bonus against them. (20%?) Barbs usually disappear around gunpowder time so I don't think this will be too uber if it takes as long as the Pyramids to build.

And a project rather than a city building in the early game just sounds COOL to me. (Projects are not a new thing, world wonders are the perfect examples of early project management.)

[Badtz Maru]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


That's one of the theories. The more conventional theory is indeed to keep Northern barbarians out.

It didn't do a very good job of that, though. I like the reasoning behind my favorite theory on this - invaders would have no trouble getting troops over the wall, it's not that high, it was hundreds of miles long and long stretches of it would be unguarded. You'd have plenty of time to get your army over it.

Once you've finished looting Chinese cities and are leaving, though, the wall is a much greater obstacle. They're weighted down with wagons of loot, when they get to the wall they are going to need to build their ramps over again, all the while worrying about pursuing armies.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Huh. I could have sworn I just saw a program on the history channel when they were running their 'great china buildings' thing.. or maybe it was discovery channel, about why the wall was built and how it worked.

For starters, it was hard for invading armies to get 'over' the wall.. but the wall wasn't built to keep people out. It was built in order to funnel attacking armies into choke points. The wall was a series of mazes that would 'guide' the advancing troops into traps that were referred to as 'killing zones' where Chinese archers, musketmen, cannons, and all other sorts of nasties were massed and would enhiliate the attackers.

I do think leaving out the great wall is a mistake. I liked it. I think all troops within cultural boundaries should get 25% against Barbarians, it should be a team project and require more hammers than the Pyramids (total). It should also probably have a requirement that it must be built in at least two or maybe three cities.

It would be slightly over powered but most people would spend those hammers building troops instead. So really only people who like to build all the wonders or want the benefits.. engineer GPPs and culture, would build it anyway.

Does anybody build the Chichen Itza now? Or Castles?

[LordShiva]

If they do make it a wonder, it should be a wonder like any other wonder - built by a single city.

[player1]

But it is not wonder in classical sesene.

Great Wall does not reside in single city.

[Son of David]

I liked how in Civ3 the pyramids would put a granary in all of your cities.

I don't understand the Civ4 pyramids, how it is that building those things gives you knowledge of police state, universal suffrage, representation, hereditary rule etc. Then again, you judge a game concept by its usefulness and interest-factor over and above realism (real life Pyramids were built in 3600BC, has anyone managed to replicate that in a game of Civ?)

Since there aren't any wonders which deal specifically with barbarians (or am I wrong?) there needs to be one for that purpose - so why not bring back the Great Wall?

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
It would be slightly over powered but most people would spend those hammers building troops instead

Sounds more like it's way underpowered. At the time you finally finish it, all land has been taken, meaning there's no more babarians left. And without any babarians there's no benefits

[TomVeil]

How about:
National Wonder
Great Wall
--The Civ that builds this wonder can only be attacked by Mongols--

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by LordShiva
If they do make it a wonder, it should be a wonder like any other wonder - built by a single city.

Not necessarily.

Currently they have certain structures that have requirements. For example cathedrals and the Global Theatre.

You can create the Great Wall in a similar fashion, for example 10 cities building "Great Wall sections." Then after you are done you get the Great Wall. Each section isn't very expensive, however a requirement like this means your empire needs to be of a respectable size.

Oh, and all invaders are "barbarians"

[LordShiva]

City Walls can be GW sections.

[Urban Ranger]

Could be.