HRE NES

[Micha]

Duke Otto I of Saxony, suffering from his age, has delegated most of the strenous tasks of dukedom to his son Heinrich. In preparation of the Thuringian campaign, Heinrich travels the country and gathers weaponsmiths, tanners and other arms-makers around him. Wherever he goes, a silver bull containing a mobilization order by Otto is read out to the various knights and sergeants. They shall gather at Magdeburg and await further instructions there.

The weapon manufaturers at Bremen are busy as never before, many of the young locals are "drafted" into the workshops as assistants or even apprentices.

Wagonloads of iron and wood are brought to Bremen, charcoal for feeding the fires of the various forges, and copper as well as tin. War is coming, this can be felt everywhere. Of course many people fear that the Vikings might strike when most of the armed forces are gone to the east, but the Duke has promised to stay at Bremen and personally lead the defenders should any battle be forced upon them.

All 600 men, the outer limit of drafting, have been called up to service, being equipped and trained with the new weaponry and armour of Bremen. More specifically, Heinrich has ordered the production of 275 battleaxes, 215 polearms, 110 swords, 110 bows and
490 light armour pieces within one year, supplying 1690 denarii from the treasury. Other supplements, like shoes, blankets, bronze pots and pans and arrows will be needed as well, though these will be bought by the troops and thus not need ducal funding.

Heinrich will supervise the training of the new levy, called "Saxon Peacebringers". All in all there will be three troop types:
A main charge force of 275 axemen, armed with the Saxon battleaxes and covered by light armour. They will be supported by 215 men eqipped with polearms and light armour. In order to disrupt the enemy defences, 110 bowmen will be added to the group, also armed with swords for self defence in melee. The latter will be trained in archery AND swordfight, though they should concentrate on avoiding close combat. Heinrich will personally pick the men for each troop type, making sure their skills and abilities are put to best use.

Together with parts of the Hamburg levy (200 Saxon raiders) and Bremen levy (500 medium swordsmen, 250 light archers), the new troops will be led to Magdeburg, the main base for the operations against the Slaws. Once the equipment is ready, the whole force will gather there. New traininggrounds shall be built (beforehand, if possible) near Magdeburg, and the food storage (as well as the beer stockpiles ) should be increased to support the troop gathering. Some 800 denarii should take care of that.

Meanwhile the Lord of Hamburg is ordered to strengthen the defensive structures of the northern border to help in the defence against Danish raiders. Additional 900 denarii are devoted to this endeavour.

With 1200 denarii the granaries are to be overhauled and filled with whatever is cheap on the markets. This storage shall put the townsmen at ease.

A new general is to be appointed. Therefore several able noblemen are to be brought before the duke for a long conversation, to judge their personality and to discuss the problems and strategies of the upcoming war. The most able tactician, if he is deemed loyal enough, will get the appointment.

Orders summarized:

• commence trade with Swabia (150d copper, 150d tin and 100d lead for 300d iron)
• call up 600 men to the army
• mobilize all knights and seargants
• make 275 battleaxes, 215 polearms, 110 swords, 110 bows and
  490 light armour pieces [1690d-300d(iron)]
• train 275 axemen (battleaxes, light armour)
• train 215 guards (polearms, light armour)
• train 110 skirmishers (bows, swords)
• send 200 Saxon raiders of the Hamburg levy to Magdeburg
• send 500 medium swordsmen and 250 light archers of the Bremen levy to Magdeburg
• Arrange these troops in the "Saxon Peacebringer" army, which is to gather at Magdeburg
• build up defences to the north [900d]
• increase food storage capabilities and purchase food [1200d]
• build training grounds at Magdeburg and stockpile food/beer there [800d]

This will cost 4290 denarii. [4590d - 300d(iron)]

[Micha]

Cyclotron, would it be possible to include the "current ressources" section in the duchy stats? It´s a bit of a strain to search for all relevant facts in two different sections...

Thanks

[Cyclotron]

I know the information delivered so far has been somewhat disjointed, and I apologize - I'm currently moving in to my new house at college and trying to get myself registered for classes, so while I plan to better organize this section, I can't do it just yet. I hope skipping between the two posts isn't too straining for now.

[appleciders]

We can deal with it; it's not much of a problem, especially since we're so early in this NES. There's just not loads of things to keep track of yet.

I'll have my final military PM in once Foolish tells me what kind of support I can expect.

[Cyclotron]

Because the process of asking me about mercenaries seems rather cumbersome, I'll supply some information about them here.

Mercenaries vary in type depending on their area of origin. You can recruit mercenaries from most anywhere you have contact with, but mercenaries from far away will take longer to arrive, charge more money, and may be less willing to fight in such a foreign place.

Vikings - Coming from the Danemark and all over Scandanavia, Vikings are powerful and unruly foot combatants. Carrying swords or axes, as well as light armor and shields, they are excellent at cutting through infantry but have a disadvantage against cavalry. They are capable and willing fighters, though they can be too aggressive in their desire for plunder. Vikings are pagans and their use is frowned upon by the church. Viking ships can also be hired.

Jomsvikings - A small but terrifying mercenary corps of vikings from the island settlement of Jomsborg in the Baltic Sea, the Jomsvikings are an elite infantry force that fights for lords with the silver to hire them. They have superior military discipline, and swear upon their entry to the organization to show no fear, nor flee in the face of a comparable enemy. Because a feat of strength is required for entry, they are all powerful individual combatants. They are typically armed with a sword, shield, and danish long axe, as well as heavy armor. They are costly, and pagan.

Frieslanders - The men of Friesland have a tradition of fighting off foreigners, from the Frankish conquerers to the Vikings that they are currently fighting to expel from their land. Their warriors can sometimes be found as mercenaries; they are outfitted typically with swords, polearms, or spears, as well as shields and cloth or light armor. While they are not quite as well equipped as Vikings, and lack their barbarous fury, they are better disciplined and are Christian as well.

Slavs - Slavic warriors can be recruited from most lands to the east. They usually carry spears or axes, and sometimes bows or throwing weapons as well. They may have shields, and are usually lightly protected with cloth or occasionally light armor. They are cheap, but unruly, pagan, and covetous of the wealth of Germany.

Franks - Frankish knights and sergeants can be stirred to defend a foreign kingdom or duchy for coin, when not on campaigns themselves. They are outfitted like standard knights and sergeants, but their morale is not as high as that of their native counterparts (though they are just as impetuous). They are Christian, and their service does not come cheap.

Venetians and other Italians - The Italian coastal cities, including Venice, can be bargained with for the use of their navies. Their ships and crews are unmatched in Europe. They are, however, ruthlessly opportunistic and greedy, and require high prices for their services.

Other - Though they are not known well in Europe, other peoples may be negotiated with; the Croats and Bohemians-Moravians may have something to offer, as might the Magyars if they can be brought to heel.

[appleciders]

Rough prices and locations might be useful- I realize it'll depend on the timing, political situation, and the location of the hiring duchy. No rush, though, I suppose, since I haven't seen anyone try to hire any. Actually, some rough prices on the cost of training and eqipping would be even nicer.

[Cyclotron]

I believe I stated elsewhere that the price would vary between 2 and 5 denarii per person per turn (your regular freedmen levies cost 1 denarii per turn). Thus, while mercenaries are several times more expensive, it must be remembered that they can be far more economical if they are only used for a short amount of time, because you need not pay for their equipment (something you must do with levies). They are also available in one turn, like vassals (unless they are from farther away), so you can raise a defensive army or a surprise attack force quickly if need be. And, of course, they are generally better fighters than levies.

Locations are pretty much self-evident - Frieslanders come from Friesland, the unowned Low Countries area to the west of Saxony. Slavs come from basically anywhere east of Germany. Franks come from West Francia, Burgundy, Lotharingia, and the Kingdom of Italy. Italian navies come from Venice and the coastal italian cities (like Genoa). Vikings come from any Scandanavian area. Jomsvikings are based out of Jomsborg, on an island just to the north of modern-day Poland.

[Micha]

Could you perhaps give a small example on how the equipment thing works? That is, what do I have to pay for making different weaponry, how long does it take, how is it handed over to the levy, what happens to excess weapons, what´s the cost difference between leather armour and (later) chainmail?

Just some lines would be nice

[Cyclotron]

Sure thing.

You can order any kind of arms to be built on your turn. They go directly to your armory, which as you can see on your status sheet is located in one of your major towns. If a town with your armory is ever taken, the enemy can choose to sieze everything that's in there, so it's best not to stockpile too much if you're concerned about invasion.

You may order how you want your levies to be equipped. It doesn't take any turns to do this, so long as the troops being equipped are in your controlled territory, and there are no other circumstances (for instance, you can't re-equip troops in a town that's under siege). Just say how you want the arms and armor to be distributed.

You can capture arms, too, by pillaging someone else's armory or by defeating an enemy on the battlefield and picking over the corpses.

All weapons cost the same amount; swords, axes, polearms, maces, spears, bows, and throwing weapons. The cost for one weapon is 1 denarius. Multiple weapons can be given to soldiers, within reason; they will generally use the best weapon for the situation they are in.

Units with no melee weapons (bows only, for example) are assumed to be armed with their own hunting knives and crude wooden clubs. Needless to say, these are not very effective.

Shields can be made for 1 denarius each. Shields cannot be used with two handed weapons (bows, polearms) but can still be carried - the Jomsvikings, for instance, can switch between their danish axe (polearm) and a sword/shield combo depending on the situation. New weapons may become available many turns down the line (specifically, crossbows).

Pavises can be made for 1 denarius each. They are useless in melee and slow down the carrier, but are useful in some situations, especially sieges, as they allow your archers to protect themselves from the garrison's arrows. If a soldier is forced to flee the field, he cannot take his pavise with him, and it is abandoned to the enemy.

Armor comes in three types; cloth, light, and heavy.

Cloth armor does not need to be purchased; it is the default. All units have this armor unless equipped with something better; it does not need to be produced or stockpiled. It gives no protection, but is free and very lightweight.

Light armor describes armors varying from hardened leather, to riveted padded suits, to scale suits, to thick hides, or anything else that provides protection while conserving mobility. It costs 2 denarii per man. While it is not as mobile as cloth, it is very feasable for ambushes and most fast-moving troops, and relatively inexpensive.

Heavy armor describes a full chain hauberk descending from the neck nearly down to the knees, complete with a metal helmet and greaves or thick leather boots. This is the armor of knights. It is heavy and slow to move around in, but provides excellent protection, and is the main reason (in addition to horses) that knights are so dominant. It costs 5 denarii per suit. This is a considerable sum, but the protection can be well worth it.

I have made the decision to make all armor producable in one turn. Iron lets you make arms and armor cheaper, as every one denarius of iron counts as 2 denarii when used to buy arms and armor.

You may stockpile as many items of arms and armor as you wish.

You may build a number of items per turn equal to twice your combined maximum callup of all your territories (Saxony has a higher max callup because it's bigger; Bavaria has a higher max callup because it possesses Carinthia as well). More land means more blacksmiths, which means more ability to produce arms and armor.

I will entertain ideas to increase arms production without increasing land; a program of building forges or supporting ironworking guilds, for instance, could conceivably do that. The possibilities are many.

I reserve the right to change these values should I find them to be too unbalancing or otherwise bad. Obviously, this whole system I've rigged up has not been playtested, and undoubtedly changes will need to be made on occasion. I will try to approach these situations in a manner fair to all players.

[Cyclotron]

PS - I understand that this last post will require the revision of orders submitted already, and for that I apologize. You can post them again or just edit your post (this is to you, appleciders and Micha).

[Micha]

Wow, that were quite a few "few lines"! Thanks, Cyclo.

One last question (for now), what about horses? If I want to train light cavalry, how can I supply the horses? Hannover, part of Saxony, is well-known for its horses, though I don´t know whether that was true in 900ad as well. Is there an amount of horses bred automatically? Do I buy them from some "market"? Or am I not allowed to train horsemen at all?

[appleciders]

Thanks! All that detail will be quite helpful after I finish processing it all mentally. My follow-up would be the same as Micha's; the Magyars have horses, why can't I buy horses from the people in the lands they control?

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Micha
Wow, that were quite a few "few lines"! Thanks, Cyclo.

One last question (for now), what about horses? If I want to train light cavalry, how can I supply the horses? Hannover, part of Saxony, is well-known for its horses, though I don´t know whether that was true in 900ad as well. Is there an amount of horses bred automatically? Do I buy them from some "market"? Or am I not allowed to train horsemen at all?

Sorry, I'm verbose. Just ask appleciders about the 4 pms of orders I sent him in the Dark Ages NES.

The foundation of medieval European armies was the armored knight. In a society where most people are peasants, not tribal warriors, the skill of riding horses is limited to the nobility.

Thus, you may not train horsemen in this NES; your vassals and their retainers (knights and sergeants) are the only ones with the skills to ride on horseback, and they buy their own horses. You don't have to worry about buying or breeding horses because it is in the best interest of your vassal knights to do this, and they can take care of it themselves.

The closest you have to "light cavalry" are sergeants, who are armed like knights but with only light armor, but even they ride the same type of large warhorse - they are thus not even close to as nimble as cavalry from the steppes or other places where riding fast horses is a common skill.

This is a historical deficiency of medieval European armies; you can't train such cavalry units. You will have to find other ways of dealing with the enemy that are feasable given the structure of your duchy as a feudal state.

It is possible to get light cavalry from nations that utilize it, however; you may find light cavalry mercenaries from other peoples, or you may end up defeating a people and making them a client state, and exact tribute in the form of military service from them - if they are a people that use cavalry, you will get that. You, however, are unable to train cavalry or "build" horses in your feudal lands (knights and sergeants "regenerate" automatically as new youths are given knighthood, but at a very slow rate).

An added note to this is that not all territories you conquer need be feudally organized. You may choose to allow a territory of yours to continue being administrated by its native people; if so, the land is not divided up traditionally - you gain no demesne, no land is enfeoffed, and the church receives no holdings. You receive no income from the territory, save that from developed mines, and that which you force the inhabitants to pay up. You can build structures and fortifications in the territory, and station your troops there, but the territory will also have its own native forces that are nominally allied to you, led by its own generals (that may be placed as subordinates to yours). This is a good way to get special unit types, like light cavalry, from foreign peoples you subdue - for once taken under the feudal system, the territory is treated like any other feudal territory in terms of unit production.

[Micha]

Ah yes, I thought so. The problem now is that practically all of my previous orders have been rendered obsolete... Hm, I will think about another set of instructions later this week.

Thanks, Cyclo!

[Cyclotron]

It's quite alright; we still need a Swabian player, and not all orders are in anyway. Sorry for the inconvenience; future updates should be much less complicated once the system is better understood by all.

[appleciders]

Originally posted by Cyclotron


Sorry, I'm verbose. Just ask appleciders about the 4 pms of orders I sent him in the Dark Ages NES.

Don't worry about it; I've been known to send Micha three pms of orders for one battle, over and above my normal orders.

So in order to train cavalry, I would need to subjugate the Magyars, but not treat them as part of my ducal feif. Clear enough.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by appleciders
So in order to train cavalry, I would need to subjugate the Magyars, but not treat them as part of my ducal feif. Clear enough.

Essentially, yes, but you won't be able to "train" them per se. The subjugated Magyars would keep a certain amount of soldiers (most of whom would probably be cavalry), depending on their prosperity and population, that you could order around (though at your peril - they are not likely to forget that they are a conquered people, and will resent occupation). Feudalizing their land would greatly decrease the amount of unrest and increase your income from the land, but you would lose the use of native Magyar troops as their population would be converted into peasantry. It depends on whether economic or military concerns are more crucial at the time.

[appleciders]

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification!

[Micha]

Alright, my orders have been updated. One question: Does the callup/mobilization cost me anything, or will my upkeep just rise the next year? (i.e. do I have to pay upfront AND upkeep for my new levy?)

[Cyclotron]

My decision on this is that no, there is no fee for mobilization. The only limit is the max callup per turn. Your upkeep will be modified upon the update.

EDIT: To be clearer, it isn't necessary to write down the upkeep cost of new troops in a budget. I will take care of modifying upkeep.

FUTHER EDIT: Micha, I changed the size of Saxony from 110% to 120% some time ago but neglected to change the max callup as well. Your real max callup is actually 600, not 550. May I assume you want the maximum, and thus 600?

I LOVE EDITING: And therefore your max number of arms items per turn is 1200, not 1100.

[Cyclotron]

By the way, Micha's orders are a good example of orders for this NES - be like Micha!

I think I have expounded adequately on the rules for now - everything should be ready for the update pending orders. Lord Nuclear has yet to answer my PM; this may be a good time to discuss whether I should update despite Swabia being empty when I get orders from all other players.

Oh, and Icarus is around, I just talked to him (in person!) the other day. It's the first week of school here, so we both have a lot to do right now.

[appleciders]

I think we should consider Swabia open, so if anyone is lurking around, they can jump in. Getting this NES started and gaining momentum is important. The standard in here is if a nation isn't controlled by a player, the mod controls it. Usually in a relatively passive way, but if you want to use Swabia to cause chaos, that's your perogative

[Cyclotron]

Very well. Swabia will now take any diplomacy you have for it; this will be null and void if a player takes Swabia before the first update.

[Micha]

Ok, orders adjusted. Btw, I hope you don´t mind me quoting you for my sig?

[Cyclotron]

Not at all.

Duke Burchard of Swabia to King Conrad of Franconia
We are prepared to offer troops in joint defense of the Kingdom against the Magyars, should the King will it.

Duke Burchard of Swabia to Duke Otto of Saxony
We have noticed your armament programs and your accompanying lack of iron. We would entertain the possibility of a trade, perhaps for your tin or lead, in exchange for our iron, which would be very useful to your war effort.

[appleciders]

I've begun to update my orders. I hope to have the domestic orders completed midnight tonight. I will complete the military orders once Foolish gets back to me about the troops I'm being sent.

Duke Arnulf of Bavaria to King Conrad of Franconia
Father, I urge you to accept these troops from the loyal Duke Burchard. Every man available to assist in this campaign will help greatly. With your leave, I will be commanding this attack of retribution against the Magyars myself. Your support is deeply appreciated.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by appleciders
Call up 200 men from Bavaria to be added to my army, specifically to the Regensburg Levy under von Nordgau. If I can use iron from Carinthia this turn and the iron mine in Carinthia produces at least 50% of base income, create them as Medium Spearmen (spear, shield, light). If I can't get that iron this turn or the iron is under 50% base income, create them as Light Spearmen (spear, shield, cloth). If I am reading the economic system rightly, the 200 Medium Spearmen would cost 800 denarii (200 wages, 200 spears, 200 shields, 200 armor) minus whatever the iron covers. The Light Spearmen would cost 600 denarii (200 wages, 200 spears, 200 shields). Note that I am building either Medium or Light Spearmen, not both. Am I reading this economic system correctly?

Almost. A few corrections:

You don't have to pay a price to recruit; levies do deduct upkeep, which you calculated correctly, but that's not exactly part of the price of "buying" the unit.

As noted above, light armor costs 2 denarii per man, not one. Thus, 200 medium spearmen would cost 800 (400 for light armor, 200 for spears, 200 for shields). They would cost 200 in upkeep per turn, so I suppose their "effective cost" the first turn would be 1000.

Light spearmen would cost 400 for equipment, and 200 per turn in upkeep.

Besdies that, looks good to me.

For everyone, as far as generals go, I've decided to let you pick from 3 randomly generated ones every time you call up a general. This lets me give you some choice, but you may still be forced to accept a general who's not perfect.

[appleciders]

I do need to pay upkeep on the first turn, though, so I calculated that in. And I'll make that change for the price of body armor.

Thanks!

EDIT: Now, will I get the benefit of the iron from that mine I'm building this turn? Can I put that iron toward building arms and armor this turn?

[Cyclotron]

Projects like that are my territory. There is a certain amount of randomness to building projects; the mine might be easily completed and usable this turn, or problems might arise that cause the mine to take longer, or just cost more. More money tends to smooth out these problems - with enough silver, you are likely to complete a mine in 1 turn 99% of the time, but spending too much silver on a mine is wasteful.

You did fine by specifying what to do if the mine is or is not active this turn; you'll find out what happened upon the update.

[appleciders]

Thanks!

Sorry to keep pestering you, but this is much better than actually studying for my finals, and it keeps my mind off the fact that college acceptance letters are mailed Monday.