StarCraft

lord of the mark · February 2, 2006, 15:06

BTW, in the previous SC thread I said i didnt have the manual. Upon closer inspection, there IS a PDF on the disc, that appears to be the manual. However it doesnt open.

However i have no particular questions about gameplay, and the backstory is well documented at Wiki.

DrSpike · February 3, 2006, 09:59

Originally posted by lord of the mark
BTW, in the previous SC thread I said i didnt have the manual. Upon closer inspection, there IS a PDF on the disc, that appears to be the manual. However it doesnt open.

Probably it was made with an ancient version of acrobat. It should work, of course, but sometimes I've seen problems.

lord of the mark · February 3, 2006, 10:54

Originally posted by DrSpike

Probably it was made with an ancient version of acrobat. It should work, of course, but sometimes I've seen problems.

That must be it. I find it odd, though, as old word docs, spreadsheets, etc are generally openable by newer software. I guess acrobat works differently.

lord of the mark · February 7, 2006, 16:38

about starcraft.

If it made little sense in AOE to go through hundreds of years of game time while your legion marched across the map, in SC it seems odd that you have a scenario where you have an urgent rescue attempt or something like that going on, with the impression that this is REAL TIME (and not just RTS in compressed time, like AOE) and yet you have time to build a factory, make a unit, etc. And that one has to keep researching the same techs over and over.

I realize those are the accepted conventions of the RTS world, but in a game that emphasizes story, it detracts somewhat.

Oh, and in the scen where Kerrigan sneaks a Psi transmitter into the Confed base - it seems like the only way to win that (and the one suggested both here and in the online walkthroughs as well) is to blast your way through to the Confed base. Which would seem to defeat the point of the transmitter - I mean if you have a dozen tanks, goliaths, marines, wraiths, etc all massed to get through, why bother with the transmitter, you can just blast the base apart?

DrSpike · February 7, 2006, 16:46

Don't you do the same upgrades over and over in AOE as well?

lord of the mark · February 7, 2006, 16:54

Originally posted by DrSpike
Don't you do the same upgrades over and over in AOE as well?

Oh yeah, its even stupider there. You go from stone age to iron age, and then in the next scen you start at stone age all over again. But thats a different issue (I want historical accuracy - you want historical accuracy go play a grognard game) This is more like (I want an immersive story - this detracts from the immersive story)

Urban Ranger · February 8, 2006, 00:35

I didn't find there's much of a story to the whole SP campaign.

Elok · February 9, 2006, 18:08

I usually just think of the researched techs as "infrastructure refinements." You know, modifying the existing equipment to be able to make better gear. Building a basic Factory is one thing, building the machines to crank out Spider Mines with every Vulture is another. I mean, you'd think it'd take a fair amount of local improvisation and jury-rigging to be able to extract depleted Uranium for Marines' bullets from the resources available on any given planet in the universe...

I'm not bothered too much by the "taking time to build factories" part either. If you don't have anything in the area, you have no other choice but to scrounge some up. "Urgent" is a relative term, after all. During the Revolutionary War, it was "urgent" that Washington raise and train an army in a few months. I never thought of SC as being "real time." Or real anything, for that matter.

I'm far more bothered by the lack of maintenance costs. Well, it doesn't BOTHER me, but it seems a lot stranger. You can keep a massive capital ship going indefinitely by building a Supply Depot for less than a quarter of its cost. Of course, if the game did have upkeep costs, it would be a lot more of a headache, but still...limitations of the genre.

Oh, and I'm now on the Terrans' third Brood War mission. Medics are fun (though not as fun as Dark Templar). And Charon Boosters make the Goliath MUCH more useful.

Whoha · February 9, 2006, 20:24

upkeep isn't something that would be incurred in a 20 minute fight though

Elok · February 9, 2006, 21:44

I think it would be, if it only took about one minute to MAKE the Battlecruiser. You can't make a ship that quickly and not have little breakdowns happen frequently.

Whoha · February 9, 2006, 22:40

advanced manufacturing of the future!

Elok · February 10, 2006, 08:47

If that's the case, then there would be maintenance on the super-sophisticated factories. So

Urban Ranger · February 10, 2006, 12:12

Upkeep costs would kill the AI side in all the scenarios (with an exception or two) in the SP campaign because it starts with a huge number of units every time.

lord of the mark · February 13, 2006, 16:35

Im on the new gettysburg campaign, the next to last Terran scen I think. I finally more or less won, building some battlecruiser with my last minerals, but im having a hard time tracking down the last Protoss. Rather than wait for the minerals to build up again, I think I may start over and do the scen better.

BTW, I keep hoping Arcturus Minsk will say something about a pet hamster.

Elok · February 13, 2006, 17:04

Well, you know they aren't anywhere on the platform with the Zerg. Can't you just ComSat the map systematically? It's been a while since I played NG, but I seem to recall you only have to wipe out all the Protoss buildings, and those don't move.

Oh, and if you haven't completed the scenario before, be prepared for one hell of a shock at the end. Don't want to spoil the surprise, but it's the only scenario ending I can remember that actually made me jump.

I don't get the bit about the hamster. What's that a reference to?

On my side, I'm on Terran Brood War 6. I may be jinxing myself, but this looks to be a nice relaxing mission compared to the last one (I chose to eliminate the Nuke silos, since the AI tends to "use" BCs primarily to throw away tons of money, but it was still a long slog through building up enough defenses to eat up BC attacks at every expansion). This is my first experience with the AI players choosing to occasionally harass each other with ineffectual attacks instead of ganging up on me wholesale.

I've also recently discovered the joys of Nuking. I had formerly dismissed the practice as wasteful, which it sort of is, but it's also really fun. Especially given the AI's brilliant response strategy: in mission five, the second the red dot appeared, scads of Siege Tanks and Vultures would flock to the area around it, and then sit there. No Science Vessels, no Comsats, just lots of extra targets.

Nor would it even think of moving any unit out of the blast area; my first successful use of a nuke involved catching an enemy invasion force massing on a bridge, then nuking the bridge. Granted, they were so wedged in it would have been hard to move them all in time (which was why I targeted it), but you'd think at least some would have tried to leave. Nope. Well over a thousand in resources, including at least four siege tanks, about twice that number of Goliaths, and a load of Vultures, flushed straight down the drain.

Do you suppose that kind of stupidity was intentionally programmed in to keep the computer from using its physical advantages successfully, or did they just not bother with a good AI for the campaigns? Probably a little of both.

Urban Ranger · February 13, 2006, 20:00

Originally posted by Elok
This is my first experience with the AI players choosing to occasionally harass each other with ineffectual attacks instead of ganging up on me wholesale.

/me is shocked

Originally posted by Elok
I've also recently discovered the joys of Nuking. I had formerly dismissed the practice as wasteful, which it sort of is, but it's also really fun.

I don't like messing with Ghosts - and the computer can see you regardless. Or so it seems to me.

Originally posted by Elok
Do you suppose that kind of stupidity was intentionally programmed in to keep the computer from using its physical advantages successfully, or did they just not bother with a good AI for the campaigns? Probably a little of both.

What AI? Not sure about Brood Wars, but the original never had an AI to speak of.

Elok · February 14, 2006, 10:04

Maybe it can "see" them, but it certainly won't attack you if you're cloaked, and if you attack while cloaked it'll use the comsat before fighting back, plus it will collect forces as though the invisible units were not there provided you don't attack or otherwise clue them in to your existence. So for all intents and purposes, in my experience, it can't.

Ghosts and nuking are of course impractical--200 minerals, 200 gas, tying up eight supply, plus building the silo and taking up space next to a CC that could have had a comsat. It's just FUN to sit there nervously as the red dot flashes, waiting for what seems like forever for the Ghost to be freed so you can scramble the hell out of there and watch it all go boom. Even when you know the AI won't even try to catch you, the tension of waiting somehow makes it fun.

lord of the mark · February 14, 2006, 11:10

Well, you know they aren't anywhere on the platform with the Zerg. Can't you just ComSat the map systematically? It's been a while since I played NG, but I seem to recall you only have to wipe out all the Protoss buildings, and those don't move.

I think the problem is that I moved my starport after having built a control tower (it was too close to the Zerg, and whenever I launched a ship, it would hit the Zerg) The control tower is sitting by itself, and is colored blue on the minimap, the color of the Protoss buildings. And of course I cant destroy my own building.

I don't get the bit about the hamster. What's that a reference to?

A character named Minsc in Baldurs Gate.

Whoha · February 14, 2006, 11:58

no its neutral blue, thats not the building you are looking for.

post a save here.

Elok · February 14, 2006, 17:03

The control tower is sitting by itself, and is colored blue on the minimap, the color of the Protoss buildings. And of course I cant destroy my own building.

Actually, you can, just not with physical attacks. A couple of Yamatos would do the trick nicely, or a nuke if you felt like wasting one. Well, I haven't tried, but I assume you could. I discovered that damaging abilities can in fact target Critters (a fact I used to flush the Scantids out of my base last scenario), and then accidentally shot one of my own refineries while trying to Yamato one of the SOBs. I should have just irradiated it, but the battlecruiser was closer and I wasn't planning to attack with it soon, so...anyway, if you can blast your own, you should be able to blast abandoned ones as well. Or you could move the starport back, or build another one.

But Whoha's right, it doesn't matter. Abandoned add-ons are neutral, the same as critters. They certainly don't count as belonging to the Protoss. They probably just have a single pylon hidden in some corner somewhere.

On the subject of killing critters, I remember reading somewhere that there's an easter egg in the game somewhere that will make one species of critter explode if you continually click on it. My source said Ursadons would go boom after fifteen clicks in rapid succession. Didn't work. Anybody know if this was just a really lame hoax, or if there were just some details wrong?

GeneralTacticus · February 14, 2006, 18:39

What do you mean, you can't destroy your own building? All you have to do is select the "Attack" option from the orders menu, and target the building you want to get rid of. No need to waste nukes or Yamato blasts when simple gunfire does the trick just as well.

Oh, and about the critters - I believe the equivalents in one of the Warcraft games will explode if you click on them enough. Maybe soembody got confused.

Elok · February 14, 2006, 18:58

Oh, so they just wanted to save the plain right-click for "follow." Can you Attack critters too?

And, come to think of it, it's kind of odd that the Zerg can't assimilate the critters. Essential for reasons of gameplay balance, but still odd. Probably there's been a scenario based on that concept.

GeneralTacticus · February 14, 2006, 19:02

Yes, you can Attack critters and kill them. I think the reason why right-clicking on a friendly building or unit doesn't cause you to attack them is fairly obvious; the last thing you want is to accidentally destroy your own building with an incautious right-click.

Whoha · February 14, 2006, 19:25

I think it has more to do with right clicking trying to find the appropriate action. If you right click on a transport the unit will try to enter, on a mineral patch with a worker, gathering, on an enemy an attack, and so on.

Cyclotron · February 14, 2006, 19:26

It is most certainly true that, if you left-click on a critter enough, they blow up. It looks like a ghost's nuke went off, but of course, nobody else is harmed by the explosion (the critter dies, obviously).

Elok · February 14, 2006, 22:28

How many frigging times to you have to click the thing? I went after it with my finger twitching like a crackhead in withdrawal and nothing happened.

Whoha · February 14, 2006, 22:35

15 I think.

Cyclotron · February 15, 2006, 02:32

If you miss once, just once, you have to start all over. They must be consecutive clicks.

Maniac · February 15, 2006, 07:11

Originally posted by Elok
And, come to think of it, it's kind of odd that the Zerg can't assimilate the critters.

Dark Archons can mind control them though.

Elok · February 15, 2006, 12:29

Yeah, I noticed that. I took over a Kakaru once to make it scout for me, only to have the thing revert to its "wander mindlessly" mode when I left it along, and get shot down. But it did reveal a good portion of the map first.