Review by "Yin26" (Part 3/3)

[Sarod]

Originally posted by hexagonian


It's call recon...
and is a valid military tactic to boot, given that history is full of accounts of military forces that grossly underestimated their opponent because of a lack of effective recon or their recon was wiped out by the enemy.

Recon in civ4 - walk up next to the force and you see everthing in it without fail with no cost or risk involved to the player.

How easy is that??????

I think the ability to see all units in a city is possibly a bit silly, but I also think having NO information about the units just because you don't send in an active spy is also silly. Passive "spy networks" should exist anytime two countries have any sort of open communications. In the real world, ambassadors have acted as "spies", as have missionaries, and merchants. One may not know the exact make-up of an army, but should be able to at least glean some information about general strengths and types of units.

Maybe something like R:TW would be more realistic, where "passive" spying tells you the general makeup of a force, but have to send in an active spy to get to fine details.

[sabrewolf]

it is and was mostly pretty clear what strength the enemy had.
today you can pick up stuff with satellites, drones, etc.
in older times you'd dispatch a stealthy scout to see the size of an army.

but realism or not, from playability KNOWING the oponent is much better. conquest is hard enough on higher levels and this way it prevents people suiciding and then reloading.

so, imho this is much more fun and more realistic!

[Aro]

@sabrewolf:

[MikeH]

Yes good point.

The other thing that's good is that you can scout cities (eg. if you have open borders) and if you see that a 'friend' AI is massing huge stacks of units in his cities on your borders he might not be a friend much longer. Finding that out a few turns before I was invaded has saved my bacon more than once.

[Jabutron]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
it is and was mostly pretty clear what strength the enemy had. today you can pick up stuff with satellites, drones, etc. in older times you'd dispatch a stealthy scout to see the size of an army.

I like the fact that we can see the units in a city. But I can see others' POVs as well. What if we went to battle without knowing defense bonuses, or ememy promotions? Do those longbows have +25% against gunpowder units? Does that artillery have Barrage III? You may have twice the numbers and better equipment, but it might not matter. It keeps the element of surprise, but also offers some chance for those of us who think Noble is challenging.

[sabrewolf]

that's a good point. maybe the promotions shoulnd't be visible for realism purposes.

but otoh it's frustrating if you lose 4 macemen to than one longbow only because you did not know that he has City Defence III and additionally combat I and punch I

[Cort Haus]

Invisible promotions is also blind combat. Blind combat is unplayable, simple as that.

[sabrewolf]

exactly my point

[Jabutron]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Invisible promotions is also blind combat. Blind combat is unplayable, simple as that.

I disagree. It means it involves a little more forethought and/or barracks and overwhelming force.

Personally, I don't start a war unless I know I can finish it, and that means either having a lot more units than the enemy, or tech superiority. I don't care if I know that the longbowman has zero promotions or five. If all I have is a stack of macemen I'm not doing it until I can add some horse units or catapults. That doesn't make combat unplayable, it makes me think about what I'm doing first and not throw away the units I worked so hard to build.

[Cort Haus]

What level do you play, Jabutron? Overwhelming force can get very expensive. Not caring whether a defending force has 5 promos or not sounds like a recipe for throwing units away, to me.

[sabrewolf]

yeah. at monarch and above, the only way to defeat level III city defender longbows is with shïtloads of catapults. if they are level 0 then 2 macemen should do the job...

[ugignadl]

Especially with the combat changes in the patch.

I still stand by the current system. It works well, and despite the consensus there is still a need for scouting the enemy.

[Jabutron]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
What level do you play, Jabutron? Overwhelming force can get very expensive. Not caring whether a defending force has 5 promos or not sounds like a recipe for throwing units away, to me.

I currently play at Noble. I just got the game for Christmas and am still learning how everything interacts. I am getting to the point where I'll be playing the next level, though, probably right after my current game. Reading posts here though has drastically improved my game!

I can support a decent military, although I usually pick on those less fortunate than me, so I don't need as large of one as I would if I went after a peer. Currently I'm at +75g a turn on 100% science with ~7 cities and most wonders (with Qin), and I'm beating up on Cathy. Obviously at the next level (Monarch?) I'll have to change my ways.

Originally posted by sabrewolf
yeah. at monarch and above, the only way to defeat level III city defender longbows is with shïtloads of catapults. if they are level 0 then 2 macemen should do the job...

I just don't have that luck. Even against archers I'll need at least 2:1 numbers with macemen to take a city and garrison it.

[sabrewolf]

jabutron: my example was unpromoted longbows. just with their unit abilities and fortification they get something around strength 9 i guess. a "veteran" maceman with a city raider I or combat I or better) has 8.8 or more. so under normal circumstances, 2 should be plenty.

however, three city defence promotions and that longbow is suddenly strength 12...

[ugignadl]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
jabutron: my example was unpromoted longbows. just with their unit abilities and fortification they get something around strength 9 i guess. a "veteran" maceman with a city raider I or combat I or better) has 8.8 or more. so under normal circumstances, 2 should be plenty.

however, three city defence promotions and that longbow is suddenly strength 12...

Try more like strength 10.5, 11.1 vs melee.

The reason they really kick other units is the intrinsic city defense a longbowman has, combined with first strikes (which are quite good if you have a strength advantage) and the very real possibility that the city you are defending has a cultural bonus.