First Impressions (screenshots, etc.)

[yin26]

Originally posted by Chronus9

Yin - is your avatar a picture of you eating a cardboard box? Why are you in a bunny suit? (Halloween?)

LOL. Well, it's carrot flavor cardboard, of course!

[yin26]

Some ICS feedback so far:

Your gold runs paper thin in the early game, and 42 gold from a goody hut suddenly makes you dance around the living room. Thus, as Solver's review pointed out, even a city maintenance of 1 or 2 gold begins to have significant meaning. I was fortunate enough to setup a silver mine and built roads to it, etc., which has helped.

So, as of now, still early game, I have 4 cities. The 4th city put my gold in a -1 per turn, and I left it that way for a long while (again, the goody huts were key). But as I plan now for the 5th and possibly 6th city, I have had to sacrifice 10% research to stay in the positive. This means, in effect, that I will be running negative again at a -10% research penalty against the AI.

Of course, I am on Noble setting, which means the AI has no bonuses. So in that sense, the situation about sort of means I would be upping my difficulty (for the early game at least). In other words, this is fun again!

Finally, the biggest piece of this puzzle will be how well the AI pushes its tech and gold advantage. But with defense given a boost this time around, and with at least one warrior and one archer in each city already (usually with lots of promotions from killing attacking barbarians), it would take the AI some concerted work against me to put the hurt on. For the moment, then, I'm turtling in order to pump out the maximum number of cities I can possibly sustain in hopes of having a strong mid to late game.

[aspvv]

Originally posted by Lou Wigman
This flies in the face of the "real world" where war has generally meant a boost for scientific and technological advancement.

I do not think this statement is accurate. In the real world the real war does not provide a boost to anything, if anything it slows things down because the resources have to be allocated to war efforts. WWI and WWII are good examples.
The only way it might appear that the war boost advancement is because there is greater emphasis on war related technologies and greater budget for them. That is consistent with the game, when the war is expected one tends to concentrate on military technologies.
The only way a war contributes to tech advancement in real world is as opportunity to test all of the military technologies already in place and weed out the bad ones.

[Tventano]

After the tutorial I started a "noble" standard continents map (all default). Now after 5 hours playing, I killed the japanese and it is 1260 AD. Btw tehy just build a settler during the war, really smart of them
The music is great. But it will take some time before I know all the tricks with the keyboard and how I want all the UI settings.
Strategy for improvements and buildings is still lacking for me. Why combined arms are useful I now experienced, but still do not know how to see quickly what attacker would be the most successful. When I have three stacks next to a city I want to capture the city with the less possible losses. This is quite complicated because you have to recognize all icons.

So the game is really addictive, but it will take some time before I can play at a decent level. Probably cannot finish this evening, thus wil continue tomorrow.

[CarnalCanaan]

Originally posted by aspvv


I do not think this statement is accurate. In the real world the real war does not provide a boost to anything, if anything it slows things down because the resources have to be allocated to war efforts. WWI and WWII are good examples.

I'd agree with this. Prolonged war can cause a society to rearrange its priorities, making war seem like a boost. Although WWII gave us jet propulsion and nuclear power, it also held the civil rights movement back and may have postponed environmentalism.

[Sirian]

No word from Yin in the last few hours. Was he busy with family and other normal activity? Bored with Civ4 already and on to something else? Or was he so consumed with One More Turn that he's still playing right now and too preoccupied to post an update?

- Sirian

[alva]

He has very silent hasn't he.

That's either very good news or very,very bad...

[DramaticActorVoiceOver]
Next week on Poly!!!

Will Yin bite back at Sid and once and for kil the evil foe??
Will he instead start biting in the dreaded box of doom??

Be sure to turn in!!!
[/]

[yin26]

Well, here's a look at what has already been reported about the stability of relationships. I'm at 1320 A.D.:

[yin26]

And here is my city status so far:



You'll see that the 5th and 6th cities were only just added and that my treasury is currently -1 / turn. This will be fixed soon via a Great Person adding gold, but there is this delicate balance against expansion too fast.

[yin26]

And this just popped up :

[yin26]

Interesting note on what happens as you conquer (and hold) enemy cities. After taking this city (which, by the way, was a rather dull cakewalk), my treasury took a hit:



As you can see here, city maintenance is now at 12 a turn. I have already started building improvements to lessen this cost, but you can see that the designers are pushing hard to limit how fast you can hold a growing number of cities:

[yin26]

By the way, so as not to make this look too bleak, you can set a city to create wealth. For example, by doing this with my largest city (Beijing), my treasury jumps to +7 / turn (I also just got another Great Person, who added +3 before that).

So there is a tradeoff here as Beijing now cannot produce anything else.

[yin26]

Here is the wealth standing:



I should say that almost 4 hours in to the game, the AI has posed absolutely NO THREAT to me. Just to liven things up, I took that city above, and the AI asked for peace a few turns later. Needless to say this worries me a bit on the Noble level, and I know you can customize the game for aggressive AI. Anyway, I won't say more on this until I see how the game unfolds.

[yin26]

To give a sense of how quickly things can shift in the game, after a few wonders, Great Persons, and other improvements, my treasury is back up to +8 / turn WITHOUT putting Beijing on wealth-making. To this extent, Civ 4 is doing something I had hoped it would: Making a kind of mini-game of running your own empire apart from whatever the AI is doing. This aspect seems promising.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

I should say that almost 4 hours in to the game, the AI has posed absolutely NO THREAT to me. Just to liven things up, I took that city above, and the AI asked for peace a few turns later. Needless to say this worries me a bit on the Noble level

I have to say, Yin, that it has me mildly concerned too. In fact, it is probably the ONLY piece of info I have heard since the games release that has me a little nervous. Though I am not normally a warmonger, I do like some of the AI civs to be more of a genuine threat to me at various points in the game (though the Barbs are sounding VERY nasty indeed). I wonder if this is just a one-off experience? Perhaps other people could let us know if they have experienced 'tough as nails' AI opponents who REALLY put them through their paces?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[yin26]

Two things that might make this sound a bit better: I am in the corner of the map, and my left flank is pretty well protected by mountains. However, the AI to my north just wimped out by losing his city to me and then asking for peace. It's possible he is setting a trap. Also, there is still that aggressive AI setting to be tried next game!

Also, here's something interesting...I am the smallest landmass on the map (again, in part, for being stuck in the corner with lots of mountains holding me in). Kind of cool, though, that land mass does not necessarily determine your other power stats:

[alva]

I will say that low difficulty level ( which, let's face it, noble is) games, do tend or at least can be...well...a bit pale. It all really starts kicking in, once higher up the ladder.

I had more written up but decided not to post it, I shouldn't spoil it all, So I'll let you wonder and ponder and worry over it all by yourselves.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hey Yin! Good stuff so far. I do think that you have to go over 'Noble' for a more aggressive enemy (so I've heard).

Btw, just want to let you know, the Civ4-Help forum has some people that just put you to shame . One guy, who I'm arguing against, just said it was 'unprofessional' for Firaxis not to have an official forums, and even though the Poly and CFC have been around for like 7 years, it was unfair for the fansite owners and the players to be sent here (never mind that the support option on the website recommended email or calling.. he won't email because he knows they won't answer ). You are looking better daily .

[Solver]

The AI aggressiveness is indeed an interesting thing.

Generally, it will not attack you without a reason. Then there's the question of personalities - Gandhi or Catherine will only attack with a very good reason, although Montezuma needs less reason to attack. There's the matter of militaries, if the AI knows it can't expect to take a city easily, it will be less likely to declare. Finally, there's the difficulty level, even on Prince the AIs are more willing to declare.

If you want, you can use the Aggressive AI setting which will make them much more likely to declare war.

Under the appropriate circumstances, even on Noble, the AI can be quite ruthless. Appropriate circumstances = good land to fight for, a couple of aggressive personalities thrown in, religious differences...

[yin26]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Hey Yin! Good stuff so far. I do think that you have to go over 'Noble' for a more aggressive enemy (so I've heard).

Btw, just want to let you know, the Civ4-Help forum has some people that just put you to shame . One guy, who I'm arguing against, just said it was 'unprofessional' for Firaxis not to have an official forums, and even though the Poly and CFC have been around for like 7 years, it was unfair for the fansite owners and the players to be sent here (never mind that the support option on the website recommended email or calling.. he won't email because he knows they won't answer ). You are looking better daily .

Great! Not sure what I'll do with my Negativity Crown, though. Think that guy wants it?

[yin26]

Originally posted by Solver
The AI aggressiveness is indeed an interesting thing.

I just realized (remember) that the game ends at 2050, and I've been too passive. My score now is fourth overall, and I don't think I can catch up from here. One civ expanded really well in the center of the map, and with no AI wars going on (none that I could tell, anyway), it seems like inertia took over for that civ.

So I decided to go down fighting. Interestingly enough, that same civ that rolled over for peace, is pushing back harder this time. Indeed, he is pillaging like crazy! That I really love, Solver, as you had mentioned before.

A big lesson for me this time is that while you can stay in the game and be competitive with fewer cities, you can't let geography and cooperative (or just mellow) AIs lull you into to playing sandbox Civ. While I think losing on score is a bit dull, I know for the next game how to avoid that scenario...I hope! \

Anyway, 85 turns left. Have to see how this war and the other AIs go to the end.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by yin26
Great! Not sure what I'll do with my Negativity Crown, though. Think that guy wants it?

He may complain that the Negativity Crown doesn't look good enough on him .

A big lesson for me this time is that while you can stay in the game and be competitive with fewer cities, you can't let geography and cooperative (or just mellow) AIs lull you into to playing sandbox Civ. While I think losing on score is a bit dull, I know for the next game how to avoid that scenario...I hope!

Very nice!! If you just hang out, you can survive, but you won't win .

[yin26]

Oh no! LOL!



Well, you can see this guy likes mounted units...and I have limited riflemen! Also, those units are going around wiping out tile improvements, which is really, really cool. Sometimes, though, they still attack a city for no real good reason and lose a unit, but that seems to be the exception. Or, anyway, the war of attrition is definitely working in his favor.

I'm really glad to see this develop. I did just basic military build up and only expanded when it was relatively easy to do so. A good AI should punish me for that kind of play. Of course, I had to go out of my way to start a war with this AI, but on Noble setting that probably makes sense. Many gamers like to have almost total control over the flow of things, and I'd say that Noble has presented that possibility. I'll just close this game out for everbody. Few more turns should do it.

[Solver]

I just realized (remember) that the game ends at 2050, and I've been too passive. My score now is fourth overall, and I don't think I can catch up from here. One civ expanded really well in the center of the map, and with no AI wars going on (none that I could tell, anyway), it seems like inertia took over for that civ.

Heh yes you can forget about that sometimes. I play with the 2050 AD limit off though (I'm glad I got this feature) - I want the game to continue until a real victory condition is met. Usually happens before 2050 anyway, but it's kind of disappointing if the game ends with a sscore victory.

That AI attack you have there is interesting, but not the best I've seen. Them pillaging is normal indeed, but I would have also expected Alexander to bring at least some Grenadiers. Then again, maybe they're coming.

[yin26]

Actually, that is Persia coming at me. Just wanted to show people what pillaged landscape looks like. This area of mine USED to be filled with all kinds of improvements (see previous screen shot above):



It's easy to see how much more powerful this kind of AI approach is than simply sending in AI units to be slaughtered. This is a very nice point in my play so far!

Yes, I will disable the 2050 victory, though I think I deserved to lose this game in any event. And I'll post a shot in a moment about how well the AI in the middle expanded.

[yin26]

Look at India (pink) -- 18 cities! (one you can't really see one just by my borders...he just kept expanding!) I think that center location helped (with passive neighbors), but it's great to see the AI doing this.

[yin26]

Well, that AI for some odd reason offered me peace even though he was doing just fine pillaging. I switched to lots of riflemen, though, and he was starting to take a beating. So I guess that makes sense. Probably not much different from what a human player would do.

One note: Highlands map is definitely the way to go if you want to give the AI the best shot at you. There are many lanes of attack, no need for navies and boarding ships, etc.

I also think it was interesting that my corner position, which afforded me a lot of safety in the early to mid game, also set up difficulties for me grabbing land. A very nice trade off, though I really want a wrap around option. Does it exist?

First game: Civ 4 - 1 Yin - 0 Again, I had to prod the AI response, but it did finally come and was pretty competent. Though using so many of one type of unit allowed me to counter after a few turns, and the AI really should have kept pressing its advantage rather than offering peace. But like I said, I've seen human players do this a hundred times because your attack starts to stall, you see the enemy finally getting counters in place, and you decide it's best to leave with your army still in tact. Usually, though, pressing forward can be the difference in truly taking somebody out of the game or not.

Uneventful until the end. Some interesting game mechanics. Definite promise.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Wow... that really looks good, Yin. The AI seems most definitely improved!

[Solver]

Yin, a tip: to take a better shot of the minimap, press F5 for the military advisor and take a screen of its map.

Cyrus probably didn't press forward that much because he saw you getting counters and didn't have enough of a motivation. In fact, this was his idea, probably.

The AI in Civ4 recognizes different kinds of wars - total wars, limited wars, dogpile wars... given that Cyrus sent in a good number of mounted units, I would be pretty sure that the AI decided there to fight a limited war. The goal was to weaken Yin's infrastructure by pillaging (the AI succeeded there) without taking too many losses or making economic sacrifices - which is why Cyrus bargained for peace when Yin an appropriate counter force. Had Yin refused peace, Cyrus might have gone on an all-out assault, or might have just some more pillaging and sued for peace again later.

Other than Higlands, there are some more good map types for the AI. Lakes comes to mind. It's also a land map, but will, in fact, not block possible advance routes by mountains, maybe making it easier for the AI. This all shouldn't be taken to mean that AI is pathetic at water maps - it isn't, but if of course has an easier time on land maps, because fighting there IS easier.

[Fidel]

noble seems to be the level where one can win even in initial game. it is good to see, though, that the mechanics, and not bells and whistles, is what people seem to like. no two games alike, cunnig, or so it seems, AI
go on yin, random map, go for it