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Thread: A Mercenary Team anyone?

  1. #1
    UnOrthOdOx
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    A Mercenary Team anyone?

    All teams would have to first approve the concept.

    A Mercenary Team would expressly NOT be interested in winning, but rather in providing a service. Specifically troops when and where needed.

    Look for Team Mercenary to:
    Expand aggressively to open areas.
    Strive to never break any deals with any team.
    Offer military units for rent for an equal cost to all teams.
    Seek a strong economy to support as many units as possible.
    Keep ALL negotiations secret.
    Divulge ALL completed contracts to the public. (once in game contact is made with all teams)
    Offer a privacy fee to keep your team name out of said public statements.

    Team Mercenary will not, however, engage in:
    Attacking a neighbor unless we are either paid to, or they attacked us first.
    Permanent alliances of any kind.
    Knowingly break agreements/backstab. (mistakes can happen, we are human, in such cases reparations will be made.)


    If that translate into winning, we won't complain. It's just not our primary goal, Win uber alles

    How the contract system has worked rather well in a Civ 3 demogame:

    http://forums.mzocentral.net//index.php?showtopic=14703

    For public discussion:

    Reasons for Change
    • To better serve potential customers, and include features requested.
    • To better balance the Mercenary Concept.
    • To close flaws evident in the old contracting system.
    Disclaimers:
    • This is still under discussion and subject to change. Any change will be added in to this public thread however, just as all Mercenary workings will be public.
    • This is to be used as a GUIDE only. We will ALWAYS entertain lower offers and alternative forms of payment (tech, workers, etc).
    • If your team has been quoted a price for a given contract already that has not been agreed to, this new standard pricing format will supercede past prices.
    GOALS
    • Provide a standard for all teams to see that they will know our dealing with them is fair and equal to our dealing with any other team.
    • Provide a standard by which all teams will be able to reasonably predict, and therefore plan, for the expenses of hiring the Mercenary team.
    • Keep the contracts affordable, yet not neccessarily cheap, that all teams will have the opportunity to hire should they choose.
    • Open discussion with the public on possible changes with the format for how contracts are priced.
    New Standard Pricing Format
    • Team Mercenary will now rent out units on a 10 turn basis.
    • Each unit's set price will be 1/5 the shield cost. All units are guarenteed to be vetran units or better. Pricing subject to negotiation, as always, but full price will not be declined unless Team Mercenary is unable to complete the order.
    • Team Mercenary will provide delivery services (ships) at no cost, and Team Mercenary maintains full control of said transport ships. We can and will make combat boats available for rent in the future.
    • Payment is due no matter what our units do. If our units all die on turn 1, or if they just protect a position for 10 turns, we get paid.
    • During that time frame they can ask our units to do anything (except disband).
    • The Hiring team is ensured that the units hired will not be used against that team for 5 turns after the contract is fulfilled OR they leave the hiring team's territory. Whichever is longer.
    • The Hiring team is ensured that the transports used to transport their troops will not carry units to be used against them until 3 turns after dropping off the troops or they have left the hiring team's territory. Whichever is longer.
    Acknowledgements

    Team Mercenary would like to thank all teams that have made suggestions and recomendations on both the hiring and receiving ends of contracts. The understanding and assistance of all teams involved to date has been more than we could have hoped for.

    Obviously pricing will need to be addressed, as well as a few other changes that come with Civ4, notably, the option to gift units.

    Is there any interest in forming such a team for the (apparantly) upcomming MP demogame


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    Last edited by UnOrthOdOx; December 12, 2005 at 09:29.
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  2. #2
    Jon Miller
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    I don't like the idea of a mercenary team (I think all teams should go for victory), but I would play in a game where someone was a mercenary team

    JM
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  3. #3
    Jon Miller
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    I also reserve the right to change my mind

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    Beta
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    I do not like the idea of a team not having 'winning the game' as its objective. This gets us into the idea of playing for second place, which IMHO is paramount to a shared victory, and I do not want this game to go anywhere near there. The premise to a civ game is that each team is trying to win. Pure and simple. Anything other than this is an aberration I believe does NOT belong in a demo game. It corrupts the diplomatic dynamics, in the same way as two teams playing for a shared victory does.
    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war .... aw, forget that nonsense. Beer, please.

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    Rysz
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    Although I don't intend to join the team, I think it's a cool concept. Gives a nice differentation to the game.

    I assume this only works in a all-human-players game?

    (I always liked this "creative" bending of the rules... In monopoly we always created agreements, although in later rules this sort of things were forbidden, it gave lots of fun at the time)

    Good luck with it!

  6. #6
    conmcb25
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    Originally posted by Beta
    I do not like the idea of a team not having 'winning the game' as its objective. This gets us into the idea of playing for second place, which IMHO is paramount to a shared victory, and I do not want this game to go anywhere near there. The premise to a civ game is that each team is trying to win. Pure and simple. Anything other than this is an aberration I believe does NOT belong in a demo game. It corrupts the diplomatic dynamics, in the same way as two teams playing for a shared victory does.
    Where do you get such drivel?

    If two teams form an alliance and emerge as the sole survivers of a game why cant they declare a shared victory? Its in the dam game mechanics now to do that! And what about the coalitions of the past?

    WWI?

    WWII?

    I dont like this "There has to be one winner" BS. It leads to the kind of backstabbing and lying BS we have seen in the C3C Demogame.

    Wake up and think about this Beta!

    *"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta

  7. #7
    Jon Miller
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    I think that there is a difference between:

    1 shared victory
    2 going for second (or worse) place
    3 going only for first

    1 and 3 are well and good (especially if the game supports them)

    2 I don't like, but as I said, I would probably play with a group that had 2 as their goal (like the mercenary nation would have)

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  8. #8
    notyoueither
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    Yes, con, if we agree that shared victory conditions will be active, it is in the mechanics.

    However, what Beta is questioning is whether we should agree that those mechanics be employed.
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    conmcb25
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    Originally posted by notyoueither
    Yes, con, if we agree that shared victory conditions will be active, it is in the mechanics.

    However, what Beta is questioning is whether we should agree that those mechanics be employed.
    NYE part of the arguement Ive seen in the past is that IT WASN"T in the mechanics. Just trying to counter that one before it came up

    Go for your Merc Team UnO. Part of the fun playing with Humans is NOT having to play like an AI and doing diplomacy and building relationships. And not having to worry about the necessity to screw over your best ally in the end because heaven forbid if we had shared victory
    *"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta

  10. #10
    GeoModder
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    It sounds like the Indian civ would be perfect for this.
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  11. #11
    UnOrthOdOx
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    In response to Beta:

    A little explaination of how the Mercenary team works might reduce some of your fears.

    First of all, Team Mercenary is announcing it's intentions from the beginning. There is no surprises here, everyone knows what we are about.

    Team Mercenary does not make alliances, period. We rent units for 10 turns at a time, period. The price is equal to all teams. No one will be turned down if it's within our ability to provide the service.

    Team Mercenary will fight no offensive wars on it's own behalf. We get what we get territory wise. We are not out to expand. For the sake of fairness as well, we will not engage in receiving territory for payment. (My understanding is this is much less an issue with Civ 4 anyway, allowing a decent military without vast territory)

    ALL negotiations with other teams are shared publicly once Team Mercenary has contacts with all teams, much similar to this thread:

    http://forums.mzocentral.net//index.php?showtopic=15246

    I will agree this is outside the 'normal' game concepts, it also is a steady factor that teams can strategise to, and plan for: Costs are known, can be planned/saved for.

    Allot of folks were concerned at the beginning of the above game. Team Mercenary has had no complaints with our implimentation of the concept, and all in that game would testify to our fair implimentation of it. We began that game on a continent with 3 other nations. Each one has hired us against one of the others to date. Details in the above thread.
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  12. #12
    Daddy-O
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    I have no problem with a mercenery team.

    Loyalty & troops - for a price of course.
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    James
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    Fun concept. Make sure you do this, it will add to the game.
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    John-SJ
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    I think a mercenary team could be an interesting idea. I do think that things other than money might be considered for services though, trade deals being one possibility. Another question, does the mercenary team provide its own defense? Or might a mutual protection also be considered as part of a deal to provide troops?

    Depending how the team was constituted to operate I might be interested in joining such a team. Could be a very interesting experience!

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    binTravkin
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    The idea is very good, yet there aren't much people wanting to join it.

    Unorthodox, maybe you need to announce it as a team where you can see everything what is going on (a mercenary team is likely to open borders with everyone), an observer team.
    For example, as Mercenary team's plans would not be so secret as other team plans, one could join mercenaries, have a look of things and then leave and join some other team (but only one with whom Mercenaries have contact at that time) - so say, 'be hired'.
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    UnOrthOdOx
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    First of all, forgive my relative absense.

    Any of you who have known me over the years, knows I do a big production every Halloween. Either professionally or simply as a hobby. This was a hobby year.

    Then of course, playing a few Civ IV games.

    I'm back now, and ready to get this team going.

    First of all, I would like to say the first and foremost goal of Team Merc is to make this game fun. For everyone.

    Now to some points:

    Originally posted by John-SJ
    I think a mercenary team could be an interesting idea. I do think that things other than money might be considered for services though, trade deals being one possibility. Another question, does the mercenary team provide its own defense? Or might a mutual protection also be considered as part of a deal to provide troops?

    Depending how the team was constituted to operate I might be interested in joining such a team. Could be a very interesting experience!
    Yes,

    Alternative forms of payment would ALWAYS be considered. This is a long history within the Merc concept already. Playing a few games of CIV, it'll be interesting just what all can be done. The trade system is a little...odd.

    Merc team provides for it's own city/empire defense, yes. MPP will likely NOT be an option for hiring team Merc. Team Merc does not get involved in anything remotely resembling a permanent alliance. Defensive or not.

    [quote]The idea is very good, yet there aren't much people wanting to join it.[quote]
    Ah. The thing is Team Mercenary is not out to 'win'. Allot of people need to be 'the best', and to at least strive to 'win'.

    Some of us, though, consider each and every successfull contract for Team Mercenary 'winning', having fun 'winning', and watching the fools on 2 sides of a war both hire us better than 'winning' (or, gasp, that party on the other side of the world hire us to force a stalemate...).

    Unorthodox, maybe you need to announce it as a team where you can see everything what is going on (a mercenary team is likely to open borders with everyone), an observer team.
    We are not simply going to be observers, though. We will be there playing along. And, if history stands, people WILL hire us. Or try to kill us off. One of the two.

    For example, as Mercenary team's plans would not be so secret as other team plans, one could join mercenaries, have a look of things and then leave and join some other team (but only one with whom Mercenaries have contact at that time) - so say, 'be hired'.
    Plans won't be totally open before they are panned out. However, once we have contact with everyone, Team Mercenary WILL be posting a list of who hired us when for what and how much. So it's definately MORE open than the other teams.

    I would be opposed to players leaving Team Mercenary to join another team. It would at least APPEAR inappropriate. Say team Member A leaves to Team B and tells them team C was in discussion about hiring Team Merc. That would be an unnacceptable situation.

    Weather that situation would happen or not, the mere APPEARANCE that it COULD would undermine Team Mercenary. And, perhaps more than any other team, Team Mercenary needs to operate 100% above board, with no shady dealings.

    Yeah, sounds wierd, huh? The most shady concept must be the most spotless in practice.
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  17. #17
    Kloreep
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    I might be interested. I certainly wouldn't want to see another Merc team fail for want of members if the participants approve one.

  18. #18
    CrONoS
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    Pretty Interesting....

    Count me in...

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    I know a lot about civ, never played any civ demo games. But i've looked the progression of some demo games, in the times of Civ3.
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  19. #19
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    Always good to see new faces.
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  20. #20
    Arrian
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    UnO, what did you come up with to deal with the issue of team A hiring you to beat on team B, and team B immediately offering to pay even more to cancel the contract (or turn on Team A)?

    I imagine this came up in the MZO game, I just cannot remember.

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  21. #21
    Aro
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    Well, I'm eager for a Demo game (best way to learn ), and the concept of a mercenary team is great. In fact, it will be easier with Civ IV, the mechanics of the game allow us to give units to other players.

    A mercenary team is a great idea, and will give an entirely new dimension to diplomacy. Yes, we’re a small, rich and very cultural country and we have crappy military… But we have money, and we can rent dozens of Mech Inf and Tanks, and kick your a$$es off… So, FEAR us! And all this by contract, with a very reliable organization.

    Not to mention the infinite possibilities to RP


    But I would prefer play as a normal builder/warmonger/cultural team, in my first Demo Game... So, UnO, my friend… Unfortunately I’ll play with another team… I have too much to learn about simple strategies. Probably a spiritual Civ . In fact, we may need your services soon!

    Btw, is it possible to give your UU to another player? What happens, the UU reverts to its original basic unit (A SEAL becomes a mariner, for example, or immortal becomes a chariot)?
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  22. #22
    Kloreep
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    Originally posted by Arrian
    UnO, what did you come up with to deal with the issue of team A hiring you to beat on team B, and team B immediately offering to pay even more to cancel the contract (or turn on Team A)?
    The answer is that Mercs don't accept payments from the target to cancel the contract. Once it's signed, it's signed. I believe UnO posted about this above - in order to get people to trust us and thus get any business, the Merc team that you might think would be unscrupulous must actually watch their conduct carefully.

    It's possible Team B could hire Merc against Team A at the same time if they had the money, but that's the extent of what B could do. (Of course, this brings up the issue of whether Team A's Mercs can fight Team B's mercs if they're in the same area. I think CIV's game mechanics unfortunately answer that one, though it would be awesome if it were possible. )

    Also, Aro has a good point... with unit trading it's possible to go beyond the Civ3 model and literally rent units to people. That would be interesting. And would get around the problem of merc units not being able to fight merc units.
    Last edited by Kloreep; November 18, 2005 at 15:15.

  23. #23
    UnOrthOdOx
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    Good question on the gifting UU's.

    I'll try it my next game.

    @ Arrian: Kloreep's got it down.

    He should, being one of the co-founders of the original team.
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  24. #24
    Arrian
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    Ah, I see.

    With unit gifting, you can sail over, drop off a few units, gift them, and then... aye, there's the rub: getting them back. You have to be in the civ's territory in order to gift the units, so the civ that hired the units would then have to transport them back - and if they're still at war this could get dicey.

    As for UUs, I honestly don't know. I'll speculate, however, that the unit remains exactly what it is: a SEAL would remain a SEAL, a Panzer a Panzer, etc.

    Heh - Redcoat Hessians, anyone?

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  25. #25
    UnOrthOdOx
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    I know CAPTURED fast workers revert to regulars.

    Anyway, my best guess what we'll end up doing on the units is renting- maintaining them in our control, for price A

    SELLING (permanent gifting) them for price B.

    However, gifting could open allot of avenues for us. team A lacks, let's say Iron. We could set up a swordsman for catapult trade or some such.

    Lots of fun possibilities.
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  26. #26
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    For renting purposes only, you could always "gift" the transport which brought the contracted units to the contractor, which moves after the contract has expired the surviving units back home and is gifted back to the merc team.
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  27. #27
    PJayTycy
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    What are team merc's penalties when the customer doesn't abide the contract ?
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  28. #28
    UnOrthOdOx
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    Penalties will have to be decided on a case by case basis. However, keep this in mind. Payment is due on delivery of units....if you don't pay, we've got units sitting on your border, ready to be hired by someone else. Someone who will now at least suspect, if not know, you intended to hire Team Merc...It tends to work itself out for some reason, and is not usually a problem...for Team Merc anyway. What do we care so long as we're paid by someone?
    One who has a surplus of the unorthodox shall attain surpassing victories. - Sun Pin
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  29. #29
    UnOrthOdOx
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    from another thread. Allot of confusion still about team Merc:

    Look for Team Mercenary to:
    Expand aggressively to open areas.
    Strive to never break any deals with any team.
    Offer military units for rent for an equal cost to all teams.
    Seek a strong economy to support as many units as possible.
    Keep ALL negotiations secret.
    Divulge ALL completed contracts to the public. (once in game contact is made with all teams)
    Offer a privacy fee to keep your team name out of said public statements.

    Team Mercenary will not, however, engage in:
    Attacking a neighbor unless we are either paid to, or they attacked us first.
    Permanent alliances of any kind.
    Knowingly break agreements/backstab. (mistakes can happen, we are human, in such cases reparations will be made.)


    If that translate into winning, we won't complain. It's just not our primary goal, Win uber alles :

    Not attacking for ourselves, to gain land, conquest and domination are off the table for victory conditions, for instance.

    Cultural considerations are lower on priority. Another not likely victory condition.

    Space Race? Maybe. Depends what's going on and how good business is at that point of the game. If we're selling troops/getting paid for launching ICBM's, we'ld rather do that. It's more fun.
    Last edited by UnOrthOdOx; November 23, 2005 at 10:43.
    One who has a surplus of the unorthodox shall attain surpassing victories. - Sun Pin
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  30. #30
    binTravkin
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    It's just not our primary goal, Win uber alles
    -- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
    -- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

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