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Thread: How to Win at Middle Ages

  1. #1
    joncnunn
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    How to Win at Middle Ages

    The Middle Ages plays somewhat like a reverse capture the flag game but also allows credit for bringing in other players flags to that 3rd location, which you have to fight your way into.

    The Domination victory conditions can be ignored, if you persure them with a proper civ, your likely to also trigure a VP victory that way just short of domination even without sending in flags.

    As the Turks:

    REX out as much as possible in early game, but keeping your empire together. It would be especally helpful if you try to aquire the luxaries SW and S.

    In fact much like the standard game.

    But as REXing winds down, you also need to start thinking about conquests, so start building your Saphri UU [I forget if you can build them as cheaper units and upgrade, your Saphri are pretty cheap anyway.] And when you have a half dozen or so, start conquering. Initally focusing on luxaries. There's no AI that can stand up to your UU.

    Wonders: Doomesday Book is easy to get and will help reduce corruption.

    Techs: I considered it "cheating" in my game to try to aquire foreign types [their cheap], so just beeliened into the second era, got the one for Doomesday book, and proceeded to beeline thru the Arab tree, winning shortly after finishing the arab portion not reseaching the final era at all.

    As the Abus:

    Similar to the Turks only don't pick a fight with Turks.
    Jersuleum doesn't produce nearly enough VP to win sitting on your @$$.

    It might be possible if you get defeat the Bryanztines with Turkish help to go on and take one or more Christian relics and then transport them back to Jersuelum yourself.

    As the Cordvians:

    I'm thinking try to conquer Europe. This means beelining to your UU, building some and then annexing Spain. Next is the Franks, followed by Burgundy, and then Germany. It may be wise if you start having to face Knights to stop the war of conquest and settle for returning the relics you captured to Jersuleum.

    As the Arabs in Libya:

    By far the worst quality land of any Arabs. Start with conquering the Abus to get better land.

    As any of the playable Vicking civs:

    Techs: Beeline thru Vicking techs

    Tactics: Inital goal is to with Berskers land on towns just long enough to steal Christian relics in Northern Europe. Depending upon exactly which civ, there's some fertile territory that might be worthwhile developing to speed along the Vicking Epic which will be handy when the time comes to transport a large stack of units there. (The one in Rome can be taken in route)

    As any of the playable Christian techs

    You have a distinct disadvantage with units compared to the Vickings and Arabs that doesn't start to get better until you have Knights.

    Depending upon your exact civ, you may be able to aquire some of the other relics to bring along with yours either before or in route. Timing is the key.

    It's probably easier to take Jersuelum by the sea (and leave the Bryzantine empire alone as a shield) even as the German nation.
    But not entirely clear because of timing of Knights vs Galleys.

    Probably best to time completion of the Holy Roman Empire to finish the last two Christian techs.

    A peaceful player as the Christians might also be able to eliminate the need to capture other relics by both completing the tech tree and building several wonders, but probably still needs to bring a relic in to Jerseulum to win prior to hiting the turn limit.
    Last edited by joncnunn; April 11, 2005 at 18:46.
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  2. #2
    Mace
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    Being a sucker for historical what-ifs, I like to play the Byz in this one just to try to re-constitute all of the old Roman Empire. As Nero said, when he burned Rome, "there will be a new Rome!"
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  3. #3
    joncnunn
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    Some more info as the Sweeds and probably applable to Norway and Denmark as well:

    One great way to get a tech at low cost is to see who has a tradable tech and a coastal town near your longboat and bersersks and that you haven't declared war too recently on. Then declare war, capture a town, hold for one turn, reload the berskers, sail away and abandon the town, stay in the general area until its been 5 turns since you declared war, contact them and grab their techs for peace. If the plan is just tech grabing, I like to eliminate a badly placed city that's crowding into a better one.

    Forest produces 2/2/0 in this conquest (2/2/1 with road.) and so it is a very productive! Consequently, Sweeden has plenty of land nearby to expand into. (Historic Sweeden + Finland is enough if the goal is capture and return relics)

    But it looks to me like both Norway and Denmark need more high quality land than in their immedate vincity. The easyist path for Norway to achieve this is probably to annex England. (And then follow it up by exiling the Celts to Brittany) Denmark has a few more options.
    Last edited by joncnunn; April 11, 2005 at 18:27.
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  4. #4
    joncnunn
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    All you need to know about stealing relics as Sweeds/Norway/Denmark:

    1. The English one start in their captital which is coastal
    What's needed to take: 4 Berskers + a longboat on the Monarch level. Wounded berskers stay on the ship and so can't be counter attacked. Timing: Start the attack when you want your GA to start. (Perhaps shortly after turn 40)

    2. The French one starts in Paris. But it is non coastal. 12 Berskers + 3 Longboats plus excelent understanding of cultural affect + AI movement and combat tactics. With poor choices, a lot more berskers would be needed. (Not so much to get in to Paris, but to get the relic from Paris back onto a longboat.) Timing: As soon as you have that force amased. If you wait to long, you'd need more.

    3. The Burgundy one starts in Rome. Coastal, but this is around 3/5ths of the sea distance to Jerseulum. Timing: Have an advance continquenment on the journey to Jersuleum (12+) make a layover.

    But, I found in my game, that the Burgundys had actually moved it away from Rome and it was no where to be found.

    4. The German one is no where near the sea. Not really an option.

    And returning them

    Jerseulum: Forces needed: 24 Berskers and 6 Longboats should be sufficent. Timing, might as well start heading what you have ready once the French & English ones are ceased and have the others catch up while lead force is capturing the Burgdian one. Sign an RoP with the Abus (or if Jersuleum captured by someone else the new owner.) Then break the ROP and attack. Be careful not to actually attack with a Bersker with relic so it has the MP at the end of the turn to walk onto the VP location. Of course you just had a major rep hit, but who cares!

    Edits: 1. Using the RoP-rape tactic against Jersuelum only 24 Berskers are needed.

    additional info

    And what to do if you only found 2 relics:
    Still return them on the above schelude.

    But load your survivors back and start sacking more coastal cities in the Mediterain of any civ.

    Shoot, you could even sack Constanpole in route if you want to be historic, but I would recomend waiting until afterwards because the AI loves to stack units with it's King units.
    Last edited by joncnunn; April 13, 2005 at 13:59.
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    AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:

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    1889
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    I got luck when I tried this one. A horesman scouting his way through Poland found the Brigundian relic lying in a marsh
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    Newbomb
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    Trades... ROP not expiring

    Im having trouble with what appears to be ROP not expiring. When I look under details it doesnt show the number of turns till expiration. I have Civ Gold purchased just after Christmas and play on the PC any help with this would be greatly appreaciated.

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    Newbomb
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    Trades... ROP not expiring

    Im having trouble with what appears to be ROP not expiring. When I look under details it doesnt show the number of turns till expiration. I have Civ Gold purchased just after Christmas and play on the PC any help with this would be greatly appreaciated.

  8. #8
    Solomwi
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    When you talk to the civ with whom you have the ROP, go into "We'd like to make a deal", then click "Active" at the bottom. Now, if you click on the ROP, it should show up in the new deal section, and you can remove it from the table. Also, you can go into preferences and click "Always Renegotiate Deals". Otherwise, as long as you don't notice it and it's a deal the AI would accept, nothing will expire.

    I've gotten bitten by this before, finding out many turns later that I'm still selling wines to Egypt for 2 gpt.
    Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

  9. #9
    joncnunn
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    I just keep "always renegotiate deals" on.

    Originally posted by Solomwi
    When you talk to the civ with whom you have the ROP, go into "We'd like to make a deal", then click "Active" at the bottom. Now, if you click on the ROP, it should show up in the new deal section, and you can remove it from the table. Also, you can go into preferences and click "Always Renegotiate Deals". Otherwise, as long as you don't notice it and it's a deal the AI would accept, nothing will expire.

    I've gotten bitten by this before, finding out many turns later that I'm still selling wines to Egypt for 2 gpt.
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    jatf
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    On the other hand I'm still trading saltpetre and horses to the AI when they are building infantry and the like. The cash is useful as it keeps their finances shaky. Also it helps with their attitude.

    JATF

  11. #11
    Solomwi
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    Originally posted by joncnunn
    I just keep "always renegotiate deals" on.
    So do I, now. All it took was one time finding an old deal that I had forgotten to break and thinking about all the cash I missed out on, especially since when I renegotiated it, I was able to go from ~2 gpt to ~40 gpt, IIRC.
    Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

  12. #12
    joncnunn
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    Tech trades and flavors:

    For a long time I thought Russia getting Aquaducts was a bug. But it turns out that Russians are actually in the Bryzantine tech flavors dispite not having that entry tech.

    While the entry techs can not be bought / sold, they can be researched or stolen. In fact it's almost standard pratice to spend the first 40 turns reseraching the Nordic tech. (For Iron Works [Factory] & Vicking Epic Small Wonder +2) The Vikings research the Bryzantine entry one instead. (Aquaducts)

    Now trying to buy/sell non flavor techs is subject to the restriction that at least one of the parties involved must have that tech as their flavor. However, buying them when not in your flavor is dirt cheap.

    But I also note that while the 2nd Bryzantine tech is marked with their flavor, the 3rd one isn't, and so that one is expensive to buy.

    If you want to know which group a civ is in, even an AI only one, just pull up the encylopedia entry for it.
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    Doc Tsiolkovski
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    Turn 40 for Vikings? Veto.

    Immediately attack the English capital with your starting units. Grab the relic. Gift the city to someone else, so the Berserk and the relic bearer get a lift home.
    As soon as Boulonge reaches size 2, capture it. Head for Paris.

    You can get both relics within the first 10 turns with Danes, and marginally more with the other two.
    If you ship them to Jerusalem at once, 8 berserks are enough (an army would be nice...but works without).
    So, you're only short of 10k VPs. Your crusading band can wipe out Fatimids easily (all 3 Kings are coastal), new built Berserks should concentrate on the large cities (London).

    Btw, the AI does very well research the 'foreign' branches (they even occasionally steal the opening tech), late in the game. So it's not a cheat here.

  14. #14
    joncnunn
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    My idea of waiting 40 turns was to allow a short REX and city growth as Sweeden so the GA would be more powerful.

    I guess the other Vikings don't have as much good quality open land nearby.
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  15. #15
    gunkulator
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    I wouldn't wait 40 turns as the Vikings to attack. Heck I wouldn't wait 4 turns.

    As the Vikings, time is not on your side. IIRC France doesn't even have its iron hooked up at the start! Get the relic from England and them take on France ASAP. I never thought of gifting the city to teleport your unit back home. Shrewd move.

  16. #16
    Ennet
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    Hmmm when i played as the swedes on monarch the english, french and burgundians had all moved their relics. Had to tear up quite a few cities before i got to them. It's all a matter of RNG i suppose..
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  17. #17
    joncnunn
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    Ennet, I think a lot has to do with what type of unit the AI choses to use grabbing the relics. I spoted the Burgundy one very early on, but unforunately it was via an exploring King while the AI had it on a Swordsmen. I just trailed this unit until the AI sent it back into their home land.

    I'm now playing the Germans on Emperor level, (I technically chose Random, and got them on the second try; I vetoed the Sweeds because I'd just played them.)

    The Germans actually start with enough cities to reserach for real instead of 1 beaker for 40 turns. I was into the Crusades era between turns 35 and 40.
    Last edited by joncnunn; June 19, 2005 at 16:16.
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    AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:

  18. #18
    joncnunn
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    German Empire in 1116 AD.
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    AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:

  19. #19
    joncnunn
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    The wonders. (The Burgurdy beat me to HRE by a few turns, and so the shields went into the BT)
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    AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:

  20. #20
    joncnunn
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    I've been stealing techs.
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    AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:

  21. #21
    joncnunn
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    And stolen some more; Fedualism just this turn since no one offered in at a resonable price.
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    AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:

  22. #22
    joncnunn
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    Some History in that German game.

    At one point, the Bryzanties declared war when I called their bluff, but so far they've only ever sent two units my way. This has functioned to give me war happinesses for much of this game.

    (Bryzantines think I ought to pay them 10 GPT for a ceasefire to eliminate my war happiness; no thanks. That is actually down from the 25 GPT they would have wanted the first time we talked.)

    The Franks though looked like they were about to sneak attack my iron city, and so I demanded they leave so I could have my horsemen from other cities come to the rescue. That worked but a few turns later several medium size stacks of Frank units arrived, mainly swords with a few spears and an archer each. If they'd all been in the same stack, I'd have been a goner, but it was spread out just enough that I was able to kill one stack, have those units rest while the other wave of my horses dealt with stack # 2, by then stack #1 was healed to handle stack #3 (barely), stack #4 was much lighter and once that was dealt with, the Franks surrendered all their gold for peace.

    I also took advantage of the Castlians and Cordovains in two seperate occusations sending 3 settler unit pairs thru my territory at the same time. Too much tempation, I napped them all which provided enough slaves to retire my own workers.
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    AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:

  23. #23
    joncnunn
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    A few turns after the above screen shots (just enough to upgrade 3 horses to fill the army shell from the Frank war), the first crusade was declared against the Maqyars.

    The GA to be kicked off to provide to funds to upgrade more Horses to Knights. In the meanwhile, the Elite Horses would leader farm. During the assult of the first Maqyar town, the 2nd leader was generated, which promptly went into a second army of Knights. The counter attack was quickly beaten off, and then Pest taken after two turns fighting. (AI stacked a lot of spears there.) Fighting around Slovika resulted in the 3rd leader which went into Arab Medicine. Any further Maqyar cities [in and around the Ukraine are the closest] would be far flung, and so the plan now is to sneak attack the Bulgarians in their only city with a king unit [Bryzantines conquered their captial] to open up the route to the remaining Maqyar king, and follow that with a wipeout of the Maqyars. This will then cause the AIs to go settler crazy again; (I've preformed one settler to found a city near that wool) which will make the next crusade easier. (Tenatably against the Poles)

    In techs, I'm now well into the Late High Middle Ages. Only the Bryzantines and Turks have techs I'm missing. (Bryzantine's the Heavy Calvary tech and maybe more, the Turks have Theology at monopoly)

    My score is now second to the Abus with over 9K.
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  24. #24
    Dis
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    sorry to bump an old thread. But I recently played this one again. I just like the scenarios (and talking about them).

    This time as the Sassinids. Who already start off with Jeruselim. But I quickly found out I can't just do a builder game or I will lose. I needed to conquer to build up VP's. So I conquered the guys who occupied Egypt and N. Africa. They were pretty much a pushover. I conquered N. Africa all the way to the tip near Gibralter. I also spread my muslim faith towards Spain. And conqured the 2 civs there. The germans were annoying me, so I got a ROP and started banging them pretty hard. They were actually kind of tough. I actually made peace, regrouped, and then really did an all out massive assault and overwhelmed them. I hit the VP limit at this time from all the cities I conquered and units I defeated.

    I should note that I did a REX at the beginning and built temples and barracks (though later I think I did get the wonder that gives you barracks- I always sell all my barracks when I do this). This is pretty standard for all the scenarios actually. Except for Napolean and WW2 pacific.

  25. #25
    joncnunn
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    A few notes:
    It's the Abu you played. (Othewise know as Sunni) The Sassinids are in Fall of Rome, not middle ages.

    Yes, VP limit is so low, your not going to win being a pure builder.

    The Fastimds (other wise known as Shitites) are indeed the easyist civ to wipe out in this conquest.

    The Cordovians that start in what's now Southern Spain are fellow Muslims.

    Germany, Burgundy, Franks, and the Danes don't have much land adviable to REX into at all in this conquest.

    Norway does have open land adviable next to them, but it's much poorer quality than that occuplied by neighboring civs.
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    AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:

  26. #26
    Dis
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    yeah with the vikings, I just go straight into conquering. They have such a powerful unit. So sense not using it right off the bat. Just takes a few turns to produce a few of them and ships to carry them.

    It seems strange picking up relics when playing as vikings and taking them to jeruselim. my people aren't supposed to be christian, right? Although I suppose in the process of conquering they may have converted.

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    Historically, the Vikings became Christian during this conquest, with the Rus looking to Constanpole and the Danes, Norweigns, and Sweeds looking to Rome.
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    AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now. :mad:

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