Classics: Panzer General

[Rommel2D]

I just figured out how to run this under XP and noticed that the PBEM programming is apparently functional. Anyone interested in a game?

[DrSpike]

PM LotM.

[Rommel2D]

Done, your Excelency...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike
PM LotM.

I only got PG2, doc. And currently gaming time is limited, or Id be busy finishing Starcraft.

[DrSpike]

My bad, just trying to play matchmaker.

[Rommel2D]

I found it listed as abandonware at a website (had trouble finding my CD in stores years ago.), if anyone is looking for a copy...

I'd eventually like to find/make a civ-like builder game around a tactically deep, mechanically sound combat system like this one.

[DrSpike]

LotM might be more interested if he knows it is free.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DrSpike
LotM might be more interested if he knows it is free.

Now, now, im not That stingy

This gets to that CLASSIC question, what constrains your gaming - right now for me its time. Im not done even done with the human campaign in starcraft. I havent gone out and bought a new adventure game, despite my desire to be explore that genre, and the many suggestions people gave me. I have a craving to go back and fill out my historical TBS collection with Colonization, etc. Ive still got plenty of old games with gameplay left - in particular, since we're talking war games, i never got to the mid point of SM's Gettysburg, or started on SM's Antietam. Heck, I never finished all the campaigns on PG2.

And of course there are plenty of (legit) free games out there - the ones at the top of my list are the adventure games somebody suggested.

So I must say, getting PG, even for free, is not a priority

[lord of the mark]

As to abandonware, im rethinking my position on that - largely cause I read somewhere that for a game company that WANTS to put a game into the public domain, but do so without endangering there other IP, the act of doing so is a non-trivial task, requiring significant lawyer time. Given that, I can see a stronger argument for the assumption that, in the case of a site (not to be named) where the siteowners will take down a game if the publisher complains, the games are truely abandoned, and not games where the publisher simply found it too much trouble to notify the siteowners(whew! what a sentence) more succinctly, abandonware, while a grey area, aint in the same category as piracy. So I might someday consider using a site like that - though a wargame is probably the last game i would get there, since its a genre that badly needs support, even the limited and indirect support that buying used games gives.

[Rommel2D]

I was wondering about the abandonware legality too. I tried to track down the status of the PG francise. SSI no longer has a distinct website, apparently having been bought by UBI. The UBI website shows nothing having to do with Panzer General. There are a couple websites for the later PG games, but they still fly the SSI banner and have links that go to odd places (including a 'buy online' link to the ubi store that does not have any Panzer General games).

If the only way to get a copy of the game is through a reseller like ebay, is the publisher going to care one way or the other?

I definitely prefer to pay for a program if it looks at all possible the developer is going to get any sort of positive feedback from it. I also bought SMGettysburg a couple years ago, sent in a check for the full manual as offered on the back of the installation guide, and had to follow up with Firaxis on it a couple times before they sent me a photo copy of the original in a generic office binder...

[Harovan]

I have the original PG and loved to play it at its time, however I doubt, that I can get it to play at XP.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Rommel2D

I definitely prefer to pay for a program if it looks at all possible the developer is going to get any sort of positive feedback from it. I also bought SMGettysburg a couple years ago, sent in a check for the full manual as offered on the back of the installation guide, and had to follow up with Firaxis on it a couple times before they sent me a photo copy of the original in a generic office binder...

Well there ARE arguments that buying a used game contributes to the hobby. By keeping up a market for used games, it puts hands in the money of people who had bought the game new. They may well turn around and use that money to buy todays new games - even if they dont, the existence of a second hand market reduces the risk of buying new games, and removes a deterrent to doing so. However its a pretty indirect and limited effect, and i can see some people deciding to dismiss it.

As to legality, thats a pretty involved thing - gets to whether the abandonware sight has the obligation to get a statement the game is public domain, or, as they claim, simply offering to pull the game if the publisher objects is enough - theres also the issue of games owned by dead publishers, which conceivably COULD be claimed by a creditor. The industry disapproves of abandonware, and so a site supported by ads from the industry has to take a zero tolerance policy, but I can see that its a grey area, with some legal issues in dispute (here in the USA - law will differ elsewhere)

[Rommel2D]

[To play Panzer General under XP:]
For the Windows version, right click on the executable; click Properties -> Compatability tab -> tick 'Run in 256 colors' in the 'Display settings' box.

[DrSpike]

I think we should all bear in mind that Abandonware is good, m'kay.

[conmcb25]

I thought we were going to talk about the board game when I saw this thread.

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
This gets to that CLASSIC question, what constrains your gaming - right now for me its time. Im not done even done with the human campaign in starcraft. I havent gone out and bought a new adventure game, despite my desire to be explore that genre, and the many suggestions people gave me. I have a craving to go back and fill out my historical TBS collection with Colonization, etc. Ive still got plenty of old games with gameplay left - in particular, since we're talking war games, i never got to the mid point of SM's Gettysburg, or started on SM's Antietam. Heck, I never finished all the campaigns on PG2.

I've never played these- it looks to me like PG2 and 3 are RTS? In case you aren't aware of it- the original Panzer General is TBS- vital to any historical collection.

I'd be curious to know if anyone thinks there is a better TBS combat system out there. By better, I don't mean merely more complex. I played an XCOM demo a while back and, while interesting, it didn't appeal to me as much as games of a larger strategic scope.

[DrSpike]

I thought they were all TBS.

[lord of the mark]

PG2 is definitely TBS, and my understanding is that PG3 is also, as well as other games in the 5 star series. PG2 is IIUC an incremental development over PG - look through the archives here, we've discussed the relative merits in the past.

Rommel was undoubtedly confused cause i mentioned SMG and SMA - both are real time, but not "RTS" (ie not C&C/warcraft clones - instead they are accurate wargames) They are however excellent games, with a high degree of historical accuracy, AND fun.

I really havent played all that many computer war games - The Operational Art of War, Combat Mission etc are some of the best - it depends in large part on what scale youre looking at - IIUC that was one of the unrealistic parts of PG - used an essentially tactical/operational level engine, but strategic level maps, etc. PG2 corrected that by using operational level maps, scenarios etc. IE battle of Sedan, not entire invasion of France, battle of Lillehammer, not entire Norway campaign. Its still unrealistic - even if you buy the prestige model, getting replacements when youre surrounded is pretty silly. PG is fun, perhaps one of the most fun wargame series ever made, and a great hook into wargamers - there are certainly more accurate systems, and some say theyre just as fun, though others dont.

[Leon Trotsky]

Anyone still interested in good old Panzer General 1.0?

[Rommel2D]

Depends on what 'interested' means...

[Leon Trotsky]

As in, "willing to give up some minutes of his life evoking the battle of Moscow in a ten year old gaming jewel via PBEM". Or something in those lines.

[Rommel2D]

Yeah, I definitely would like to see how well a classic PBEM plays in actuality. I'm about to catch some sack time- I'll see if I can load it up and take it though the paces sometime over the next few days...

[Rommel2D]

I have a version up and running on my laptop. You can send the first turn to 'poly at jwala daht fastmail daht fm'- unless you have an idea for a scenario I need to start...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
As to abandonware, im rethinking my position on that - largely cause I read somewhere that for a game company that WANTS to put a game into the public domain, but do so without endangering there other IP, the act of doing so is a non-trivial task, requiring significant lawyer time.

I have just read this.

To my understanding abandonware is not the same as public domain. Instead, it's more akin to freeware or FOSS. The company (or developer) still holds the copyright, but you are allowed to freely distribute the program.

Furthermore I don't see how that can "endangering their other IP," asumming the confusing term "IP" is used to refer to copyright here.

[Paddy]

Panzer general... a good game... well worth the effort indeed

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I have just read this.

To my understanding abandonware is not the same as public domain. Instead, it's more akin to freeware or FOSS. The company (or developer) still holds the copyright, but you are allowed to freely distribute the program.

Furthermore I don't see how that can "endangering their other IP," asumming the confusing term "IP" is used to refer to copyright here.

Assume a company produces Game X, Game Y, and Game Z. They want to make Game X available as freeware/abandonware, but they wish to retain full rights to Games Y and Z. They cant just have an intern write a statement saying "Game X is abandonware". They need to write something making it very clear in legal terms that rights to Games Y and Game Z are fully protected, even if Game Y and Z share elements with Game X. Ergo they need to have a lawyer actually write the document. Which will cost them P * Q, Q being the time expended by the lawyer, and P being his hourly rate. Ergo, unless the abandonware release is part of a deliberate marketing campaign, its not worth doing.
Ergo, from an ETHICAL POV, the fact that a company has failed to declare Game X abandonware, does not PROVE that they value their full rights to Game X. QED.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Assume a company produces Game X, Game Y, and Game Z. They want to make Game X available as freeware/abandonware, but they wish to retain full rights to Games Y and Z. They cant just have an intern write a statement saying "Game X is abandonware". They need to write something making it very clear in legal terms that rights to Games Y and Game Z are fully protected, even if Game Y and Z share elements with Game X. Ergo they need to have a lawyer actually write the document. Which will cost them P * Q, Q being the time expended by the lawyer, and P being his hourly rate.

Uh, abandonware simply means others can freely redistribute the program without prior permission. It does not mean others can freely use the elements inside said program in another one.

As I said, it is a bit like freeware.