New Succession Game Spoiler Thread

[atomant]

Ok, my pitiful attempt is as follows:

4000bc As we all know, two settlers, pop hut get warrior code
3950: Gibbon reports we are the 5th wealthiest civilisation
3960-3550 Explore
3500 - Pop hut, get archers
3450-5400 Explore some more
3350- Pop hut discover masonry
3300-3250 Explore a bit more
3200- Disover P-Polis on a two (poptentially three spot site., start researching alphabet, change to 20/60/20. Also found Parasgade on a three spot city tile
3150-2800 Spend time with archer uncovering map.
2750 P-Polis build two warriors, starts settlers
2700 Exploring
2650 Parasgade builds two warrios starts settlers
2600 Archer pops hut, disovers elephant mercs (supported from PG)
2550-2500 Explores

(and I'm spent) Save attached. Votes will be compiled once saves are in

[Peaster]

Oops! I just started a different spoiler thread. Well. let's use this one instead.

Pre-game thoughts: Persian pundits don't think the tech-rule will have too much effect, except that it'll be harder to weasel maps out of the other six beligerent tribes. And we should really avoid the evils of feudalism lest our enemies build pikemen.
The huge black map handed down to us from the Holy Mountain may mean a longer game, especially if our warriors must trek across large masses of land. Thus spake the Persian builder associations, who conclude that we must construct a few Wonders - such as MPE, HG and LH, without regard to cost. With these words of wisdom to guide them, our brave Settlers begin to wander about...

4000BC: Hut = 100g. We will quickly spend this for a third settler, before our builders can take a cut, while our second settler explores a bit to the west. The southern grassland has no forests nearby for construction, so the Persians builders persuade us to follow a northern star.
3900: Persepolis (1). We never saw a buffalo on a river before.
3700: Size-1-Settler is born, and Settler 2 builds Pasargadae (2).
3650: Susa (3), will share the water-buffalo.
3600: Alphabet -> CB.
3550: Persian warriors start a little dance, alternating between martial law and little visits into the countryside. Our wise dervishes suggest a few coastal cities soon.
3350: CB -> mm. We chose mapmaking, hoping for seafaring soon after monarchy. We want 2-3 explorers entering huts on a large continent. But - monarchy is taking longer than expected, and we are almost defenseless against barbarians.
[subliminal] This log is SO imaginative! [/subliminal]
Most Persian cities have been trying a strategy imported from France known as "3-arrows". So, we wonder if settling early in the North was really so smart.
2900: mm-> c.laws
2700: Arbela is founded near a musk ox and some silk, but the town's builder association insists on a percentage of the local trade, so Arbelian workers have nothing better to do than work the grass (1-arrow).

2500BC: Next turn, Persia will have 5 cities [with a new one in the wheat fields to the east, hoping to follow the French plan, but their builders association is likely to interfere]. Also, 1 Settler, 5 warriors and Code of Laws. Monarchy in 2050BC seems possible - if the western settler founds a 3-arrow city soon. No AI contact yet, and only one hut popped.

[Grigor]

4000BC Xerxes the Generous takes charge of two samaritans, with a sub rosa agenda of bloodlust. He sadly sees no starting techs. He confers with his Deity, and in a volcanic-fume induced haze, resolves to give any techs he later acquires to each AI immediately. Xerxes' minions peek inside a hut and find an Elephant. What was in that smoke?? With the knowledge that a friendly adversary has polytheism, Speed is of the essence... Persepolis is founded at the site.
3950 researching Alphabet. Builiding one road, for defence and science.
3900* The elephant finds a second hut, revealing Alphabet - what luck! The Deity sems to have accepted Xerxes' rash act of generosity...
3850 Xerxes ponders the tech path briefly. Surprise! - researching Ceremonial Burial.
3800 Pasargadae founded down the river
3750 a Persian Warrior begins his grim career of brief exploration and martial law
3650 Another hut provides 25g
3450 Ceremonial Burial - HB not offered. Research BW.
3300* Persepolis builds settlers
3200 Susa founded down the river
3000 The elephant finds a coast in the far north. A Hut! - Arbela. Ths far-flung colony should be repositioned. Xerxes looks around. His empire is 4 cities, BW soon, a good amount of exploration accomplished. A modest beginning, but a good start at homeland development. Still no friends to donate techs to.
2900* BW=>CoL
2850 Pasargadae builds settlers. The busy elephant razes another hut: 50g
2800 An exploring warrior redeems his existence and finds a whale near the homeland for next local city
2750 The marauding elephant finds yet another northern hut: Antioch. Its location is nearly as bad as Arbela. Xerxes resolves: This will be the nucleus of a Great Northern trade center.
2650 Tarsus (a possible SSC) founded near the whale.
2600 Persepolis: Settlers.
2500* The inquisitive pachyderm wastes yet another hut, finding a friend of sorts - Nomads. The northern commercial center has a good chance now to actually be useful.

Xerxes retires to seek more council from the vapors which so inspired him before...

[-Jrabbit]

4000bc -- open hut, get elephant -- finds river!
3900 -- Elly finds hut = 100 GP
3700 -- Hut = Archer
3600 -- Persepolis founded at 185, 83 (whale, wine, river/buffalo)
3550 -- Cere Bury selected
3500 -- Hut = archers, attached. Elly goes NW
3450 -- Pasagardae founded amid silk-wheat-fish
3350 -- Ceremonial Burial discovered, Alphabet selected
3300 -- Hut = barb horse; elly makes vet!
3150 -- another hut! = Legion (attached to pasagardae)
3050 -- Hut = Warrior Code
2900 -- Settler completed in Persepolis
2850 -- Settler completed in Pasagardae
2700 -- Alphabet completed, Code of Law selected
2650 -- Hut = 25 GP
2550 -- Susa founded on silk
2500 -- SAVE GAME -- Elly ready to take hut, settler ready to build on Gems @ 173, 67

Summary: Good hut luck, bad science progress. about to drop 4th city. Briefly looking at others, this is not as good as I thought it might be...

[-Jrabbit]

Pretty tough to beat Grigor's start -- 5 cities with 3 more settlers extant! I could replay 20 times and not match that result.

My game has 3 cities, one settler, and 100gp in the bank. Maybe could have been better if I'd dropped the capital in the first couple turns. I also decided to take some 3-special sweet spots for the first 2 cities, might have progressed faster if I had dropped right on the specials and taken more of a ICS approach.

Sad that no one has started to study Monarchy yet...

[Peaster]

Atomant - We need a deadline for posting 2500BC saves, so we know how long to wait for Scouses Gits, 6000 etc.

Atomant and JRabbit - your early wandering was a gamble that did not pay off this time [but I haven't checked JR's save yet].

In Grigor's save and mine, growth has surpassed science, which means getting monarchy and HG ASAP is crucial. We are equal on advances/beakers. We both have a chance for monarchy in 9 turns if there are no riots, barbs, etc. My cities seem slightly better prepared for these problems. The main tech difference is Grigor's BW [for defense, and the trade path] vs Maps [for triremes and the seafaring+hut strategy].

Also - With the special tech rule in this game, I expect we will have only one chance with each AI to raise attitude through tech gifts, trying to get their maps. So, we may want mapmaking when we make first contact.

Grigor is about 1/2 a city ahead in terms of growth, since his Arbela will disband, and his Persepolis has no good shield squares. His northern city Antioch should be useful later as a port. I don't think we need an SSC [this game is for conquest, right?] but that city is on a good square anyway.

If we have to choose between these two saves, one big issue will be building Hanging Gardens, probably with vans, before we make 12 cities. My plan is mapmaking/seafaring, using triremes + explorers + virgin huts + AI contact to get bw/cu/trade/pots quickly. This should pay off on a big continent. From Grigor's save, the plan would probably be cu/trade/pots directly... a shorter path, but probably with less help from AI/huts. I'm not sure which is better.

We both seem to be ignoring the "raging hordes" setting, with several empty cities. My save is temporarily a little safer - less spread out, with more warriors. But Grigor can make phalanges if he wants. I think barbs are somehow anemic until you make 7-8 cities, but I don't know this rule exactly.

So... we wait for more saves... and more opinions.

[-Jrabbit]

Atomant, please clarify -- Does it matter in what manner we transfer techs to the AI civs?
In other words, can we trade, or must it be gifting? [EDIT: I checked, and it can be either.]

Peaster -- yeah, all my recent MP play has really put me into the mode of finding a great spot for the capital, so it's not surprising that I would be surpassed in early game snapshots. I think, in the long run, we would do quite well with my start, but judging strictly on BC2500 results, I must defer to either your start or Grigor's.

At first, I was sold on Grigor's , but if you consider the number of still-available huts, the Peaster .SAV may actually be superior.

...and where's that Scouser???

[Grigor]

My start was aided by 2 AT (in unfortunate locations) and a 2-move elephant for exploration. I like that there is a promising start to a northern city group, which could turn out triremes and conquerors in profusion by about 1500BC, and perhaps even a wonder. In short, I have more territory, but a looser position.

Peaster made incredible use of his 100g first hut, and his cities are better placed in the homeland, which will make production easier. His compact city placement minimizes corruption and will make his science slightly quicker for the next 20 turns. He is absolutely right about my capital being devoid of shields, but he will eventually put a city in that location too, right?

I think my homeland position can be consolidated soon (in about 10 turns), and then it will not be inferior to Peaster's. The crucial issue in my save will be to maximize arrows to be sure Monarchy comes in 2050. The northern cities will not help science much, but they can build units and more settlers. Once other civs are found I predict they will be closer to the northern group than the home group. We don't yet know what use Peaster's eastern coastal city will be - if the nearest island is too far away we may be stuck in the south with no quick expansion possibilities. And I think fast Trade will be more useful than trireme exploration on a giga map. But I could be wrong in that.

So I prefer my loose save this turn, but not strongly.

We should definitely wait for the Scouser. He played the most enterprising opening imaginable the last game.

[Grigor]

JRabbit-

Early exploration is always a fun strategy, but after your first two huts yielded the absolute best results (elephant and 100g), you should have plopped down your first city and gone to the size 1 settler strategy, which would have left you with the best of both Peaster's and my strategies.

I'll bet that would be the best play in MP too, but I have not had opportunuty to try.

[-Jrabbit]

The MP group I'm in plays one-night stands, so it's all about the race to Monarchy. That means a heavy emphasis on early science.

I was also guilty of not reading the rules. Which means I didn't realize it was a gigamap. Which precludes any need to worry about an early race for land and huts.

I must admit, I'm likely to go back and try several variants of this opening sequence. I need to get my SP chops back after all the 2x1x...

[atomant]

Lets say monday morning Ill. time for the last save. Excellents starts all round, but it is def between Grigor and Peaster.

My language was pretty vaugue concerning how the techs can be given, so as trading could take place. However, once the usual apolton accelerated science kicks in, trading will give way to gifting (i forsee).

Sorry for the late reply, just had a job interview in sydney and the flights really sucked (delays and all).

[Peaster]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
I was also guilty of not reading the rules. Which means I didn't realize it was a gigamap. Which precludes any need to worry about an early race for land and huts.

I meant to ask someone about the gigamap... I can never remember civ2's hidden rules. Does this map affect happiness or corruption, or other game factors ?

Grigor - I was probably not going back to settle in the southern grass, because shields will become even more important as we leave the opening. I was thinking that maybe I should have settled there early, like you did, since that land is fine in the beginning for 3-arrows + food... still not sure. My eastern city-to-be may never be a great port if the AI all live up north. But the wheat + ocean + 2 forest combination should pay off quickly, and I did need more ports.

If SG or 6000 doesn't show up and finish the game this turnset, we can start from your save. I agree that the northern outpost cities will be a big asset. Did you have a plan against riots? We may have 7-8 cities soon, with a few size 2's, but IIRC you only have 3 mililtia. Maybe switching city production to phalanges will solve that?

[-Jrabbit]

AFAIK gigamaps are just... big.

There may be limits on distance-based trade bonuses but I'm not geeky enough to know that. As your empire spreads, you need to be wary of corruption, which can affect govt choice. In a bloodlust without a real tech race, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that Fundy will ultimately carry the day anyway, so no big deal there.

The main effect is that there is plenty of room for 7 civs, and the game generator tends to space them out pretty evenly, so there's not the great urgency to find and pop huts as early as possible that you have in medium or small worlds.

[La Fayette]

Main events:
4000bc: Hut = chariot, Persepolis
3850bc: Hut = Barb horse (killed at once)
3800bc: Pasargadae
2950bc: Hut = Masonry (CerBur and Hback discovered previously)
2900bc: Susa + Arbela
2850bc: Hut = Antioch (that we intend to move)
2500bc: Alphabet (starts researching CoL)

My opinion: 5 cities, Monarchy within about 12 turns, this is close to what Grigor and Peaster achieved (but no better )

[-Jrabbit]

You're off the path, LaF. I prefer either the Peaster or Grogor save.

[Peaster]

According to Apolyton's DL counter, only one of us has looked at Grigor's save so far. Come on guys - the future of Persia is at stake here !!

[atomant]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
You're off the path, LaF. I prefer either the Peaster or Grogor save.

Agreed and +1.

[-Jrabbit]

I've been going by the logs.

[Peaster]

Hmm... If LaF doesn't stay on the path, he may step in it (jk).

[atomant]

Shall I call for votes? For me it is a close call, but I think........


Grigor by a nose hair (or is the the nose of a hare?)

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
You're off the path, LaF. I prefer either the Peaster or Grogor save.

This is precisely what I tried to say...
(probably a problem of nice wording in English somewhere )

[Peaster]

Originally posted by Grigor

The more I think about the question of whose save to take the more I like Peaster's. I think the clincher is that in my save there is nothing to build except settlers for the next 40 turns. That isn't going to be a lot of fun in a deity game, and the possibilities of exploring the map are severely limited.

So I think we should go with Peaster's start.

I will take another look at your save tonight if we have not voted by then. IIRC most of your cities are past 20 shields, so that it would be wasteful to switch production to phalanges. But maybe that's not so bad?

Until then, I vote for Grigor's save in the hope that we can find a solution to rioting and get to monarchy in 2050. [these could be problems with my save, too].
His northern city makes the difference for me.

BTW - Welcome La Fayette! Since you did not have much luck with huts, 5 cities by 2500BC is pretty good.

[Peaster]

After another look at Grigor's save, I think there will be no big problem with riots. The SSC will make a warrior next turn and Antioch can switch to a phalanx.

I had thought the northern city of Antioch was a port. It's not, but I guess it is still valuable.

Are we waiting for someone to post? If not, I guess everyone should vote. I am not too sure, but I will keep my vote with Grigor's save.

[atomant]

On counting the votes, shall we say Grigor's save for this round? Yay or Nay applicable( with alternative if Nay.)

Post now to get your +1

[-Jrabbit]

Yay.

Downloaded and ready pending outcome...

[atomant]

Based on votes received, Grigor it is. Download and play.

Deadline Monday 6pm GMT.

[Old n Slow]

I'll be out of town this weekend. So I'll catch up (maybe) soon.

[Peaster]

2nd Attempt to Post a Log (...Grrrr)

2500 Switch Antioch to phalanx, max-out arrows, give-up on Arbela.
2400 C-Laws. Gordium (7) on a bufflao.
2300 Bactra (8)
2250 1st of 3 riots [allowed carelessly]. Arbela disbands (7).
2100 Sidon and Tyre (9).
2050 Monarchy discovered and adopted.
1700 Currency
1600 Hut: barb kills a warrior.
1550 Sardis (10)
1500 Power report. We are 3rd.
1450 Samaria (11) to the east.
1400 Hamadan (12). Trade. Have been prepping to make vans for HG, but can't research pottery. So, I aim for mapmaking and MPE soon afterwards. I hope to get pottery, tribute and maps from the AI soon.
1100 Mapm'g -> pots. "Russians beat Japs, and start on the Colossus".
1000 MPE allows us to give all our tech away. We get 6 maps, poly and myst. We also reluctantly took math + wheel from Russia [to get poly + math from the more advanced and icy Greeks]. NONE of the AI had pots!!! They say good-bye after map trades, so we must talk again in 975BC about tribute (unlikely) and more tech-gifts.

Good = city production, at triremes, a vet ellie, and vans for HG or LH. Enough settlers for colonization. Decent roads. One nearby hut. Six AI maps.

Bad = several of my plans failed, especially pottery. Without luck at huts, etc, it may take 12 more turns for pottery/HG, to allow further growth.

We could build LH first and might even skip HG for Mike's depending on hut outcomes, etc.

[Grigor]

This turnset was difficult, but there didn't seem to be much in the way of choices. I did get to MPE by 100AD, but I haven't looked at the foreign advisor yet. I am not sure of the rules regarding tech gifts and contacting the AI when we have MPE.

Log: 2500-1000BC

The Persians need to get to Monarchy by 2050.
Current beaker status: researching Code of Laws - 43/60
producing 9 beakers/turn. Can use 8 on one of the 2 turns.

2400 CoL=>Mon (0/75) - need 11 beakers/turn. Arbela disbands. Gordium founded in North.
2350 Bactra founded.
2250 Sidon founded
2150 Susa builds Settlers.
2100* Monarchy=>Curr. Revolution
2050 gov: Mon
2000 hut: Nomads! Use for roads in the North
1900* Tyre founded on East coast
1700* Curr=>Trade. Hut: 50g. Antioch: Settlers. Persepolis, Susa, Pasargadae build settlers too. It's a Settler party!
1600 Elephant finds possible second continent - to the east, surprisingly.
1400 Trade=>Horses. Pottery not offered. The Persians want MPE by the end of this turnset.
1050 HB=>Poly. vans delivered for MPE
1000 MPE in Susa. The Persians decide to post this save in which nobody has yet been contacted.

[-Jrabbit]

Hmm, I look at these logs and must admit to a bit of WTF. Seems like we need to agree upon a strategy before this goes too much further. This is tech-neutral bloodlust, with restarts. So let me ramble with some commentary at this point...

Obviously, with no real differentiation in the tech race, the greatest advantages in this game will lie in getting the right WoWs.

Maybe I'm being a bit dense, but I don't understand the rush to MPE. The longer we wait to build it, the more the map area to be revealed. After we've gifted everyone, additional map requests will be difficult to get.

Another possibility would be to blow off MPE entirely. This would limit required gifting to the civs we have met. On a gigamap, you can build a pretty big civ before meeting more than one or two others. (And the world is so big, it does make sense to get map trades, thus maybe MPE is OK.) Consider: It might do us more good to get our embassies with the late-game WoW after MPE expires.

I'm suggesting that an isolationist policy, celebration growth, and a rush to soft fundy might be a better course of action.

But even if we decide we want MPE, why not build camels-in-waiting for it and get another early WOW like HG or LH first?

If we are going to go forward with MPE, I then must wonder about the value of a SSC, since there's no possibility of taking a tech lead... In fact, it might make sense to set the science slider to zero after we get a few key early WoWs.

Speaking of which, notes on another couple WoWs --
--Upgrades through Invention/Leo's is a potentially huge advantage in this game.
--Conversely, the Library will be worthless, since everyone will have all techs anyway (assuming MPE).
--STWA is a must. If we're all going to have the same units, best that ours be vets, eh? (Timing will be critical on this.)

Let's see some commentary on these random thoughts so my session will be informed by our agreed-upon goals...