Clash Demo 8 Download and Comments

[Mark_Everson]

Clash of Civilizations Demo 8 is ready for your download and comments! Your ideas and playtesting are critical in helping the team avoid bad design decisions, and to give us the feedback we need to put out a Great product!

This version of the game is a demo of design concepts. It is not even close to the completed version, but its a bit of fun already! The design of the game is likely to evolve in later versions. We are continuously testing out ideas to see if they work, or if we should replace them with something else! If you have any comments on Clash of Civilizations, then please post a message on the Clash Forum at Apolyton.

Demo 8 Main Features:

1. Government/Social Model -- One of the long-standing goals of the Clash project has been to have the player interact with the people of their civilization, and not just issue dictates. Now you can negotiate with power blocs in your civ to determine Government policies with the Ruler Panel. Negotiated policies include tax rate, ethnic discrimination for conquered peoples, and a host of other things. (Note that "hookups" of many policies such as civil rights and private property to the rest of the game will have to wait for Demo 8.1.) Conquered peoples can riot or revolt, depending upon how they are treated, giving the player interesting strategic decisions to keep a multiethnic empire together. The new Social scenario introduces the government and social aspects of Clash, and lets you, like Alexander the Great, combine military conquest and the rule of a multiethnic civilization!

2. New AI -- We have taken the first steps toward our ambitious AI goals in this demo. The AI now adapts to some changing circumstances, such as identifying the need for siege weapons to attack fortifications. You can check out the behavior of the new AI in the various scenarios. You can also see how it operates in the Reinforcement test scenario or you can watch the AI change its planning and execution due to new circumstances. The AI isn't anywhere near where we want to be yet, but this is a major step forward in the AI code!

3. New and revised Scenarios -- Many other scenarios have been modified, especially to make them more challenging. If you are not familiar with Clash you should start with the Dawn tutorial scenario. You can also create your own detailed scenarios even now! All scenario information is in XML files, and we'll have an editor in the future. If you have a really fast computer or a lot of patience, you can check out the Ancient Middle East scenario by Alms. It is not fully developed at this point, and is really stretching the limits of what Clash can do now, but gives an idea of where we’re headed!

4. Numerous new small features and bug fixes -- One example is our efforts to reduce micromanagement involved in taking territory and hunting down enemy military units. For now, taking the capital of a province gives the winner in the whole province. However, squares that contain enemy military units will still remaining in foreign control.

The Demo has many intuitive aspects, but we also have not yet made it as user-friendly as the final product will be. Please play the "Dawn" tutorial scenario Before you make comments here so that you know how you are supposed to work things. For further information, you can check out the manual, linked to off the download page.

Also, please look over the bug reports and feature requests docs that are posted below this. Otherwise you could spend a lot of time telling us something we already know .

I would like to thank especially Laurent for his work on the Demo. Without his persistence and contributions this demo certainly wouldn't have happened. Alms and others have put in significant amounts of time on the demo, and I'd like to also thank them here for it! Great Job!

For what is coming soon, please check out the Demo 8.1 Goals and Plan thread here on the forum. To influence what goes into the next demo, you need to tell us what you want, like and don't like! Do that in this thread, or in the relevant model thread.

Let us know what you think!

Clash of Civilizations Demo 8 Download Instructions

These instructions are for Windows machines. However, the demo can in principle be run on a wide variety of OSs because Java is cross-platform. (You can try running the .jar file and see what happens. Failing that try to find out what users of your OS do to run a "Java 2" program. If you have success with a particular OS please tell us what to do to run it, and we'll include it in the instructions. For Mac OSX just put the jar on the desktop and run it.) The download instructions are listed below. Use Step #1, then go to (you guessed it!) #2.

Download Step #1
1. (Skip if you already did this for Demo 7, although if that doesn't work, try doing this step first).

Go to http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/download.html and go to the link Download J2SE JRE, and Download the JRE. It is called the "JRE file" below.

2. Install the JRE file to the default directory.

3. Reboot if required

4. Follow Download Step #2.


Download Step #2

1. Click on the hyperlink below (Download Demo 8 Now!).

2. Unzip the contents (you don't need to do anything with the .bat file for now).

3. IMPORTANT : Clash MUST be in the Windows Desktop folder for now. Please extract ClashD7.jar there. (If you don't want to do it this way, there is an alternative. Please see the section under "Attention".)

Note: When you unzip the ClashD8.jar file to the MS Windows (TM) desktop, make sure you have "Use folder names" unchecked since otherwise you will end up with the jar file in ...\desktop\Clash Demo\ which will do you no good!

4. To start the game, double-click the file and give it about 10 seconds to load. If you have problems, let us know.

Download Demo 8 Now! (1.5MB)

ATTENTION: If you follow these instructions and the the program "bombs", please try the following:
a. Create a directory called ClashDemo on C:\
b. Copy the Clash_D8.jar file from your desktop into the new ClashDemo directory.
c. Extract that batch file in the zip to the new ClashDemo directory.
d. Run the batch file (double-click the file named "Clash_D8.bat")
e. If it works, great. If not, please send Mark Everson the error message from the DOS window.

For Mac Users wanting to run the demos, please see the discussion in theRunning Clash on Macintosh thread. The short answer is that for OS X you can run the .jar file directly, for OS 8 and 9 please read over the thread to get an idea of what's involved.

Other OSs should be able to run Clash Demo 8. If you can find out how to execute a .jar file with "Java2" on your system, then you have all you need to run the demo. Please help others by telling us how you run Clash if you have an OS that isn't mentioned above.[/b]


For those who want a blast from the past here is a link to the Demo 7 Thread.

[edit] update link to new demo version that Laurent created

[Mark_Everson]

This is the Bug List - current as of Jan 1, 2005 (v40)

I have assigned priorities to all bug and small feature requsts they are noted in square brackets at the end of each item. Feel free to question my priorities. If there is enough clamor that something I rate low is of high importance, I'll change it...

Most outstanding bugs are minor and will be addressed within the next few releases. I have eliminated many old bug reports that I personally haven’t seen in a long time. If someone sees a previous bug that I’ve gotten rid of, please let me know. All bugs have a ‘-‘ prefix to distinguish them from the small feature requests, which have a ‘f’ prefix.

An 'X' in front of an item means it has been fixed/addressed. Usually the X items are left for a while in case the same issue comes up (the implementation may not have worked completely).

I have put the newer bugs at the top of the file, and relegated the older ones to the bottom. Note that there is also now a web-based bug reporting system. I will try and transcribed the bugs reported there to here also, so that we can have one-stop shopping. The web site is at http://www.vovan.net/bugzilla/. I will usually omit stack traces and such for the errors already reported at bugzilla

Numerous bugs have been found by alms and others, and many of them have already been fixed by Laurent. If you see a bug reported in one of the demo eight or scenario threads that is not here and seems important, please report it to me, ideally in the format below.

[D8 Medium priority]

-170 (bugzilla bug 4) - mini map
In playing around with the testbed today, trying to find the map size that would fill the entire minimap screen, I discovered that generating a map larger than:
width=67
height=134
causes a problem with the minimap as seen in the attatched image. I didn't go further to test whether it was the width or the height because, as you may have noticed, I was trying to keep the map square.
[low priority]

-171 Econ bug - social
java.util.ConcurrentModificationException
at java.util.AbstractList$Itr.checkForComodification( AbstractList.java:444)
at java.util.AbstractList$Itr.next(AbstractList.java: 417)
at game.economics.Economics.allEconomicsTurns(Economi cs.java:98)
at game.economics.EconomicsTurn.(EconomicsTurn.java:23)
at game.manager.Turn.run(Turn.java:79)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:536)
[low priority]

X172 In the process of looking through the code, I discovered another problem In SquareClass summarized below:

* @todo this method assumes kapital level per population is 1 and hat
* population in the new square will equal average for the civ. Both of
* these assumptions can produce very inaccurate results. (Mark)
*/
public float getPotentialEconomicValue(Civilization civ)

-173 (Alms) I don't see it in the list so, could we fix the bug where specials don't get drawn after they get buried by fog of war? This is really apparent in dawn, with the wheat and horses disappearing after you move away from those tiles.

Mark: I see the wheat just fine through the fog. Anyone else not see it?

-174 (Alms 16) Can we add some extra black space at the bottom and right hand sides of the display map? The scroll bar cuts off the bottom half of the bottom row of tiles which makes them difficult to select, and for some reason the last column of tiles on the right is difficult to select. I often end up clicking the mouse 3 or more times to get a unit's move path set there. I assume it's a display problem. Anyone else have this? (Mark doesn’t have this problem)



OLDER BUGS

-55. When there are too many enemy TFs on a square, right-click does not produce a pop-up window with the details. I noticed this when I let the AI grow huge armies (by turn 80). By that time also the power circle of those mega-concentrations vanishes, cause it's too large and it gets buried under tiles further away which are probably refreshed after that. [don’t know if this is still a problem, low priority, D8]

-116 When econ orders frame comes up first the many little text areas appear with no frame around them then the rest appears. Not critical, but any ideas how to fix this? It didn’t happen in D5. [low priority, that interface will hopefully be completely replaced for D8]

X159 (MacHatter on a Mac)Buttons in population transfer dialog are too narrow (text on the "transfer xxxx" button is truncated) [D8]

-160 (MacHatter on a Mac) Path finding problems-units don't use roads, even if it would be quicker
TF at 11,12 goal is 5,8
Road from 7,14-5,11-5,9
Default path (5 turn)
11,12-9,8-5,8
better path(4 turn)
11,12-10,14-7,14-5,11-5,9-5,8

TF at 3,12, goal is 7,14
Road from 4,12-5,12-5,11-7,14 (arrives 2 (first))
Default path (arrives 2 (2 turn 2 markers))
3,12-5,12-6,14-7,14
Better path (2 turn, (1 turn 2 marker))
4,12-5,12-5,11-7,14

(Mark says) not sure if this one is really a movement bug. There is a bug, but it may be in the little red circles that show turn numbers. I duplicated the results posted by Andy, and verified by pgrignon, but they Don't Match actual movement times, which are 5 turns in either case. [med D8]

-163 (Mark) Triremes not on build list in Delenda, neither is the cavalry unit Hannibal has [med D7.3]

X164 (Mark) When population of a square is taken away so that square pop is now 0, square doesn’t change possession when conquered. At least it appears to take special circumstances for it to be conquered, although it can happen eventually. It appears the code to change square possession is ignored if pop = 0, suggest the test become if the square has an administration it can change hands. I looked for the code, but couldn’t find it after about 15 min of looking around, so I quit. [Med D7.3]
Workaround: never remove all population from a square, just leave a few and its ok.

-166 (Heffalump/Mark) It looks like a bug has crept into the unloading menu code. Below is the way it usually works.

To unload:
1. put the ship on a coastal square
2. left-click on either a ship in the carrying TF or the carried TF and select the unload option.
That's it.

It looks like the bug is making those unload options not appear at first. This results in a very short set of options. A work-around is to select the transporting TF with a mouse click. This makes at least the unload option for the ship appear. Selecting the carried TF seems to make the unload option appear for those.

X167 (Heffalump) - In the Rome/Carthage scenario I retreated to Rome, made a stand and defeated Hannibal, then counterattacked north. I recaptured my northern city and pushed on. Then Carthage had it's greatest victory. I divided my 8 or 9 unit army up into multiple units, then tried to re-form it into 2 separate armys .... and it just disappeared. Gone. Oh well, that put a serious crimp in my invasion plans! (The bug seems related to one of those assign unit to TF commands).

I've played around with it a few times and as best I can tell, here's what I think happened:

In the Carthage/Rome scenario
1. Pick Carthage
2. Goto the big stack at 2,4
3. Split the big TF into seperate TFs using the respective command
4. Right click on Hannibal (which is probably the default selected unit) and click Assign Unit to New TF
We're now in a situation where none of the Units are "selected" but the commands to do things like Add Unit to Selected TF are still visible. Use that command on a unit (without "selecting" any units) and you'll see it disappear into space.
Similarly, right click on a unit and do "Merge units into selected TF" and they will all disappear.


Command line switches (Must be in command line mode (FE batch file) to use):
-ef = error logging to a file
-noAI = no AI movement
-seed = random numbers use constant seed for reproducible behavior
-800x600 = start in 800 x 600 res mode to simulate 800x600 screen
-allecon = allows access to economic orders/info for non-player civs
-nopatrol switches off patrolling in addition to militia. “Patrolling” lets militia be formed for defenders even if a square is empty of friendy units, and militia will help in the order: Those who discriminate less against them, those whose preferred ethnicity they are, the defenders.

Full information on command line switch usage is in the testbed readme file

[Mark_Everson]

This is the Feature List current as of Jan 1, 2005 (v37)

Feature Requests. Frequently it is a judgment call what’s a bug and what’s a small feature, please just accept what I call it… All feature requests will have the prefix 'f' to make it easy to distinguish if it’s a bug or a feature ;-)

I have assigned priorities to all feature requests - they are noted in square brackets at the end of each item. Feel free to question my priorities. If there is enough clamor that something I rate low is of high importance, I'll change it... All bugs have a ‘-‘ prefix to distinguish them from the small feature requests, which have a ‘f’ prefix.

An 'X' in front of an item means it has been fixed/addressed. Usually the X items are left for a while in case the same issue comes up (the implementation may not have worked completely).

Starting with recent requests at top -- I (mark) will only feel required to add a priority to these if it seems needed for D8.1-2. Feel free to vote if you don’t like my calls on priority.

F174 (Alms) Need to add the ability to select multiple units and combine them into a TF, which currently isn't possible (similar to F168) [medium, D8.1 if relatively easy, later if hard]

F175(Alms) Need to add "Center on Selected Tile" in the right click menu when over the main map. [medium, D8.1 if relatively easy, later if hard]

X176 Shouldn't desert have some sort of farm or resource site so people colonize desert? After all, the earliest civilizations grew up in deserts (granted they had river valleys, so this may be moot).
Mark said: Desert already has farm sites, and you can colonize it. FE in Dawn you can plunk a thousand people down in the desert and they do ok, even if they don't thrive. People tend not to auto-colonize desert, because, while you can live there, it sucks.

f177 (Alms) Need to add some indication of when the next unit will be built (Edit: Noticed this is on the feature list as f69). Same for next tech discovery, road segment built (Edit: See f155), and wall built. For the road segments and walls, a graphical overlay could be displayed showing that it is "under construction." For the tech, I'm not sure without having to rebuild the entire interface, that there is an easy way to do it. And for units, again I have no ideas on this one, other than a progress bar on the current econ interface. [medium, D8.2 if relatively easy, later if hard]

F178 (Alms) Add ‘actual’ numbers next to percentages in the social panel. For example, if 59% of your population is Roman display:
Roman 59% (53,054) [low]

F179 (Alms) ( continued from previous) It would also be nice to have a hyperlink rather than text. The hyperlink would open a new panel giving breakdown by the other two categories (of the three – social class, ethnic group, religion). So, to continue the example above, when “Roman 59% (53,054)” is clicked, a panel detailing Social Class and Religion for Romans is displayed, and looks something like the following:

Roman 59% (53,054)
Social Class: Religion:
Aristocracy 5% (2,652) Roman Paganism 85% (45,096)
Warriors 20% (10,611) Greek Paganism 10% (5,305)
Workers 75% (39,791) Celtic Paganism 5% (2,653)

f180 (Alms) Roads - These should not automatically begin on the tile selected, you should select start and finish. Even though it involves that dreadful "extra" click, it somehow seems more "right" to me. [anyone else have feelings on this? Seems fine the way it is now for me.]

f181 (Alms) When rebel units form & I “repair” the cause that brought them forth (I'm assuming the cause is that listed under the riots entry in the events panel on the turn the unit was created), I expect to see the units disband back into the population eventually, though I never have. (some dispute whether removing the cause should remove the rebels)

f182 (Alms) Hyperlinks
Add Hyperlinks as in the Events Panel to the following:
-Civ/Province Econ Panel (military elements) - link to info on strength and such here, currently can't tell which is the stronger unit to build. [wait for new econ interface]
-Tech Panel - link to tech info showing new applications available and obsolete ones also. [medium, D8.5 or so if relatively easy, later if hard]

X183 (Mark) in scenarios like Delenda it is far too easy to flash-build walls. There probably should be a delay, or larger costs associated with city walls. The way it is now Wall-building speed is vastly different from Army unit movement rate timing. This gives the defenders a big advantage. We don't necessarily have to do anything about this for demo eight , since people can always put in their own delay "by hand" for testing purposes. It's just that if you flash build walls it makes it very easy to win some of the scenarios. (cost of walls has been increased 5x)

F184 (Alms) Graphics Terrain Transitions. Clash should have 3 types of transitions, normal, cluster and coastal. Normal transitions are those which extend from the tile into an adjacent tile (about 1/4 of the tile), and are the most widely used and known.

Cluster transitions, rather than extending out into an adjacent tile, occur within the last tile itself, leaving about 1/4 of the tile as “flat”. These flat areas can be transitioned into by normal transitions. Cluster transitions are the type used by woods (forests and jungle), hills and mountains in the Civilizations series, and should be used for the same purpose in Clash.
See http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...55#post3485155
Further info and Discussion at: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...81#post3511781
[no clue as to importance, others?]

F185 a. (Mark) Should have an indicator on the map that shows where provincial and civ capitals are. Maybe a star in the civ color, or a flag or something. Also put in a target flag in the AI so that provincial capitals can be targeted specifically. [medium, D8.1]
b. (Alms) And/or we could add a “Next Capitol” button to the interface, which centers the view on the next capitol in the list. [low D8.5]

F186 (Mark) Naval unit building is a bit of a kludge at this point. You need a Port to do it. For now building considers only the province capital to be a port. However, if the capital (and so the port) is inland then the build prohibition about needing coast to build a naval unit kicks in. If you change your province capital to be on the shore, then it'll work fine. For D8.1 we should have Designated ports that show on the map to eliminate this problem. We should label ports maybe with an anchor graphic? [low D8.1]

F187 I’d (Alms) like Larger Tile Support:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...59#post3483459

F188 (Alms) Turn Structure Here's a mock-up of the xml to change years per turn shown to player (no game effect):

<scenario>
...
<turnstructure>
  <timeunit>year</timeunit>
  <startdate>5000BC</startdate>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>50</timeunits>(25 turns @ 50 years each)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>25</timeunits>(25 turns @ 25 years each)
  </timeblock>
(snip)
</turnstructure>
...
</scenario>

And the explanation:

Definitions:
Turnstructure – This structure defines the passage of time in this scenario.
Timeunit – This is the unit of time that the turn represents (years, months, weeks, days, hours, etc.)
Startdate – This is the start of the scenario.
Timeblock – This structure defines the number of <turns> to execute at the specified <timeunits>. For example, the following indicates that 25 turns will execute at 1 timeunit (year, month, etc.):

  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>1</timeunits> (assuming this is one year, this block represents 25 years over 25 turns)
  </timeblock>

Turns – See above.
Timeunits – See above.

For further info see: See http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid= 3526487#post 3526487
[low D8.2]

F189 (Alms) Province List
mockup:

<province>
  <list>
    <name>name(1)here</name>
    <name>name(2)here</name>
    <name>name(3)here</name>
..........etc..................
  </list>
</province>

explanation:

List is the new tag. It merely supplies a list of names, used one after the other for naming provinces instead of 'Province 1', 'Province 2', etc. [medium D8.2, good eye candy for not much work use provincenames or some other descriptive tag instead of list, should go inside civilization xml block]

ALL below from Alms up to 207
F191. Shouldn't "Wall" references be "Fortifications"? It seems that this wall implies a closed structure (city walls), which could just as easily represent a castle or fort (thus I'm using it as such unless told otherwise). Or does this imply a "Great Wall" or "Hadrians wall" type of wall? Assuming it doesn't imply the latter, could we setup this latter type of "square-edge interlinked" wall? [low]

F192. (Specials have been done already) Add a "required technology" tag to Specials, Regimes and Social Classes. This would allow the emergence of regimes over time, the emergence of the middle class, and specials to "popup" once certain tech levels were reached. [med D8.5?]

F193. Make roadbuilding work like walls, giving the ability to define multiple road-types and to control roadbuilding with technology. [low] ( Mark: As an intermediate step, we could make road building cheaper with better road/bridge technology. Laurent, do you know if this is easy to do? Similar to mil units?)

F194. Divide the Combat activity into Naval, Ground, Air, and Siege Combat. Check here at the Technology Test Scenario: Development & Discussion thread for more. [med. D8.1]

F195. (Ignore, model reads this way, but it's out of date) Change techs to NOT be open-ended. They should stop sucking in RPs when they hit 100 (or preferably, a globally set number). Further discussion at: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...84#post3528784 and after.

F196. Add Requirement tag to technologies (accepts specials or other technologies with levels). This tag keeps the technology from sucking up RPs. Check here at the Technology Test Scenario: Development & Discussion thread for more. (done for techs, not for specials afaik)

F197. Increase population growth rate, or better yet, put it in the scenario file as a property of the scenario tag (population growth multiplier). [Mark: Why exactly is this needed? If you need population to grow faster make the Farming tech larger, and the farm sector will be more productive, giving larger population growth.] [low D9]

F198. Why does the ‘economics.xml’ file need to be external when all others can be integrated with the scenario file? Let’s make it so this file can be integrated into the scenario file, making the scenario file a stand-alone component. In fact, while we’re at it, let’s make ‘terrain.xml’ capable of integrating as well, since many scenarios will likely change these. Even ‘militaryattitude.xml’ should be capable of integrating since it allows some minor customization of AI behavior. Basically, every file that is in the resources folder could simply be a part of the scenario file eliminating the need for the resources directory. [med. D8.5]

F199. (this one may or may not already exist as I thought I had submitted it before, but don't see it) Add the civ's treasury to the status bar along with population and date. [High D8.1]

X200. Need more activities. Speaking of which, why is Dawn the only scenario to use the Domestication activity? Also, what activities are planned for the future? Check here at the Technology Test Scenario: Development & Discussion thread for more. [We are currently adding more. Tech is in an embryonic state so it was sometimes added only for demo purposes, as in Domestication in Dawn. Is there anything further, or can I delete this?]

F201. Need a notification that some new unit is available in this format (perhaps):

Technology has reached level 5.2
		New Units can now be built (click brings up a list of items)
		New Infrastructure can now be built (click brings up a list of items)

[high D8.2]

X202. Since Tiers are merely cosmetic properties anyhow, why put an artificial limit? Allow 4 or more tiers of technology. Check here at the Technology Test Scenario: Development & Discussion thread for more. [ I think this is solved to everyone’s satisfaction.

F203. Can we add an additional road tile to the set? Call it roadC, for “road center”. Anytime a road is built on the tile, roadC is added in addition to other road segments. It will allow a less grid-like road pattern. [med. D8.5; what would this require Laurent or Gary?]

X204. When all roads have been built, can we put “Civ has built all roads” instead of “Civ has built roads” in the event box? [most people won’t even notice. . . propose no action unless others want it]

X205. Need to force city graphics to show on provincial capitols. In a field of similar terrain (Dawn map), it’s a pain to search out the capitol city when you haven’t visited it in a while and there’s no army or wall to mark the tile. And/or we could add a “Next Capitol” button to the interface, which centers the view on the next capitol in the list. [Already covered in F185, I think a unique icon is better]

F206. Need to add a grid that can be turned on/off.
See http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...13#post3533513

F207. Reduce the number of coastal tiles used.
See post at link below for details:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...70#post3534470

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
OLDER Requests

f63 The units are shown jumping from initial to final state, without me seeing their pacing. [actually there is an update by tick, but its fast on some machines] This is crucial for gameplay, so sliding of units (like in civ2) has to be introduced. [IMO sliding speed of units should be selectable by player, with the choice included of no sliding (or very little), low priority]

f69 One thing that is needed is some way to know what units are projected to be created in each square and when. Put this in the details frame or the econ info window. Or rather make a city screen, like in the ole civ2! Integration is the key. [D8+ nice to have, but not essential, wait for new econ gui to do it]

f72 Economic consequences of battle -- The two armies share the square, fighting every turn. But there seem to be no economic consequences to this raging battle. [medium D8.1 feature, need to discuss implementation]

X74 One thing we could use when there are multiple TFs in a square is whether they have movement orders or not. Perhaps you could just put the same red circles you put on the path. So a circled 2 in a TFs box would indicate that it has moves for two more turns registered. This is not urgent, just thought I'd mention it.
[Click on the details in the popup menu to get this.]
[If I have to click on every TF to see which has orders it is just about a useless capability. I should be able to See from the TF box which ones have orders. This is not urgent, but needs to be handled in some way to avoid player (read ‘Mark’) frustration. [eventually need, medium priority, D8?]

f108 Unit details issue. With two TFs in a square right-clicking always gives details for the one selected to move (white outline on box), not the one you rt.-click on. [Very counter-intuitive, but it is the spec for now. Selected TF is one right-click gives info for.] I (Mark) would like to make it a feature that the one you right-click on is the one you get move orders for. If the click is not identifiable as pertaining to a given TF or unit, only then would I have it apply to the selected (white box) one.

Gary Commented: The reason it works the way it does is that a right click selects a UNIT, not a task force. It has the function of allowing a single unit to be moved to the selected TF. Mark's problem is that he does not appreciate the difference between a right click and a left click (which changes the TF selected).

(Laurent comment) Maybe highlighting the selected unit (instead of TF) would help understand what right click does. This is particularly interesting when you move units from one TF to another. A multiselection could even be useful.

(Alms) For the units box, rather than showing the hundreds of icons of each unit type present in the square as now, we should show a single icon for each TF present within the square, with the relevant combat info besides each (attack / defense / Health / Personnel/ Transport Capacity). If the player wants to manage the TFs/units in that square, have an army management screen where the player can combine units, split units, ditto for TFs, disband units, etc. Doing this, I would hope, could allow the units box to get smaller (or eliminate it entirely, preferably), while showing more useful info, and allow us to add more info to the detail frame. Things that come to mind for the Detail Frame are the general happiness level of the square’s population, Specials present, trade route present, or growth rate of the square. I'm sure there are lots of other things we can think to include here.

What do others think? [no priority until we get more input]

f118 “hide events” should also hide the detailed description boxes associated with events. Actually closing them would be best so that we don’t end up with hundreds of little event boxes accumulated and hidden from view by the end of the game. [medium priority, D8]

Xf135b (Mark) Related issue, looks really silly to be notified 10 times that identical units are being built. When more than one of a given unit is built in the same province the events should say FE "3 Legions built in [1,1]". To do this all that is needed is to make a pass through the events and count any identically-named ones. Then re-name the first and cull the others.
(Alms, related to f135b) It looks silly to have riots[x,y] listed 20+ times in the events box, and it sometimes makes the box too long to fit on screen, if there are lots of riots. Would be better to have a single "The people are rioting!" entry, and the player clicks that for more info. The reason this is related to f135b is the same would happen if you built that many units in a single turn. IMO this extra 'click' is justified.
[low D8+]

f136 Combat Reports -- At some point there should probably be a breakdown of number of units of each type on each side, but its not urgent. Also unit power, health, etc should probably just be reported as integers. Health 23.4857392 is a bit disconcerting. [mostly fixed, but sometimes a long string of numbers seen]

f138. (Axi) The movement path of the units is drawn on a layer below the units and the power circles, resulting into it being hard to see sometimes. It should be always drawn on top.
Gary Commented: Absolutely not. Please believe me, it would look awful.
Mark supports Axi’s original desire since when moving a TF, That is the focus, not the graphics for other units, cities, etc. What do others think?
(Alms) I vote over... not a high priority though, since I can figure out how long the trip will take myself.
[medium, D8+]

Xf140. (Axi) For players that do not use the same colors as the windows default appearance, the area where you can toggle between traditional and market economy bears the color of the window, while the surrounding area bears the color of the windows default appearance. (I am using a blue-gray tone which makes the thing rather ugly). [ignore, that interface will be history soon anyway]

f142. (Axi) The TF box does not need to have a gray background. In demo 4 it had the flat ground for background. Please bring that back and make it so that the background copies the tile which is currently selected.
Gary Commented: The tile does not have the same shape. Anybody wanting this is cordially invited to provide the images. I won't.
Mark thinks we could at least tile with a nondescript green background as in D4 easily (I still have that tile, and we could just use it). I agree with Gary that trying to put the correct terrain behind would require a lot of artwork effort, and is of very low priority, especially since we have No Artists at this point on the team. [Low, D8.2]

X144. (Axi) Since we can save window settings now, how about adding the general settings (fog of war, hidden map, TF selection and whatever is added next) into that file?
Gary Commented: They are not intended for that purpose, they are really a debugging aid, not a feature of the game.
Mark says: TF selection should be at player option, and why not the others? I think Axi’s request would be useful during the remaining year or more of debugging we have. [Low, D8]

f145. (Axi) Shouldn't there be "back" buttons in all the launch screens, along with the "exit" ones? [Low, D8+, some back buttons would be difficult to implement due to program load sequence]

Xf146. (Axi) The [econ orders] reorder button seems to be reordering infraclasses by groups. Perhaps the expandable list idea mentioned somewhere above should be implemented, providing us with a much nicer representation of expenses. [ignore, will fix when econ interface is completely replaced]

f147. (Axi) I feel that it would be ergonomically better if we could have a merged window for both civ, province and square orders, where we could give orders side by side. Also an option to clear all orders on each level would be swell.
Gary Commented: In my view this is the most critical improvement required after D7. The present system gives a horrendous amount of micromanagement, since the panels must be checked and modified every turn. [High D8 replace the existing econ gui]

X f149 (Richard) There should be some kind of home field advantage. Cities fall over way too easily. Maybe in city battles we should generate free horde units to represent militia. When the city is attacked, the units join the defending TF. Then they return to civilian life when the battle is over. [This has been addressed by Militia in D7.2, walls in D7.2 also help, will revisit if needed].

F151 (Laurent) road-building is pretty fast for me (again, I always put LOTS of kapital in it but even then, 12 squares including 2 hills and a mountain in one turn, it seems a lot).
Mark said: But part of the reason its so fast at 30% road building and above is that 30% is an Enormous amount of resources to put in roads.
What real 'civ' spends more than a few percent of revenues on road-building? There are so many other competing demands...
Laurent said: Yes, but in the game, which is not a simulation, it seems weird. There are so many things the player doesn't see, that roads, which are something he sees (and not in a lost menu but on the map), should have more importance than in real-life.
Anyway, players need feedback on how much money to put in the road-building (so I don't put 30% where 5% is needed), and they can stage it over several turns.
My suggestion, maybe put in an arbitrary delay for road building so it happens over time. This would also prevent flash-building of roads during an invasion. Maybe an automatic 2-turn delay between order and building? [low D8.1]

F152 (Blakis) Why can't I just use the arrow keys to move a unit one tile at a time? This was implemented by Gary, but seems to have become broken, probably fixable with relatively little effort [med D7.3]
Boomer/Aaron fixed this. The only issue was his fix requires use of CTRL+ARROW because the ARROW keys were being eaten in some component before we even see
them. Need to track down problem so CTRL not needed [low d8.5?].

F155 (axi) Roadbuilding could use the same code as pathfinding to show on the map the number of turns in which each road segment will be built, with priority based on the order with which the orders were given. [Low D8.5?]

F156 (Axi) There should be an option to make visible all friendy TF paths on the map. It would also be nice to have a preview of where each unit should be next turn, if nothing intervenes. This is in anticipation of future major wars. [low D8.2?]

F157 Make it so pathfinding into the black doesn’t give away terrain info [med D8.2?]

f161 (twinge) Another irksome style you use is how the menus work. When you click on a menu that has more than one option associated with it (IE, almost every single menu) they pop up somewhere else on the screen. I find that pretty annoying; If it was done similar to standard windows submenus (where you move the mouse down to the menu target, and the submenus pop out--like the start menU) that would be ideal. Something close would be good too; right now it's quite odd =) Perhaps having that fixed by D8 would be good.[thoughts on this?]

f163 I (Mark) think the new event-driven bulletins work great, thanks for doing it Gary! Some of the bulletins were designed by me to fill "down time" when nothing else was happening. Unfortunately now they can occur when other event-driven bulletins come up. One thing that might be good is to have an event class that says "show on turn 10 or thereafter, but only when no other bulletin is being shown" How hard would that be? If two or more of this type would come up on the same turn, the one with the earliest turn number would be the one shown. Seems to me it would really help in streamlining the tutorial. Also some things I had listed as showing at "event X + 1 turn" seem to show at the same time as event X. [low, D8.5?] How much does the multiple-bulletins in the dawn tutorial bother people?
(Alms)Multiple events popping up isn't really a big issue for me, though some scenario designers might demand the "fix" suggested by Mark here, so I vote yes.

F164. Horses is listed as active even before you discover the horses resource, doesn't seem right. [leave pending discussion in tech thread on this topic]

F165 (Richard) I am constantly splitting off armies to retake the squares they walked through as they slipped by my armies. More micromanagement. I want to set up a border patrol, but the only way to do this now is to station an army in every square. That would be hideous micromanagement, especially with my civ expanding.
(Laurent comment) This one is quite serious in Jericho in particular. Automatic taking of a whole province under some conditions would help too (like controlling capital + opponent having no troops in the province). That would force AI to target capital and be a bit easier to intercept. Maybe it doesn't solve the problem. A "border patrol" order could also be implemented so that a TF with this order would move to reclaim territory lost in its protected province, or would move to a square of it sprotected province if there is an enemy in a neighbouring square. Note this is crude AI and is prone to abuse, but it seems feasible and could help reduce MM. Longer term, the TF(command) should be able to split so as to send only that number of units is needed to do the task so it can better react if someone attacks from somewhere else. Priority as far as reclaiming territory would have to be set to either eliminate opponent units first or reclaim territory first. I think the former is better in order to avoid armies running around one another in circles.
[we need something like this eventually, probably needs to wait for the real AI, D9?]

F166 (Richard) I have discovered an abusive strategy. It allows one small army to plunder an entire enemy civ. What I'll do is march one warrior into the outskirts of their civ, claiming the square. Then I have the warrior pick up all the people and move to another square. I then pick up all the people in the second square. Since the first square is empty, they will send about a thousand people to colonize it. I then march my warrior back to the first square and pick up those new colonists, leaving the empty second square which will also be colonized again.

This can continue until their population is too low to colonize anymore. At the end of this process, their entire civilization had about 4000 people and my lone warrior was escorting over 11,000 of their people. They had a big task force on their capital, but those armies just sat back and watch me steal all of their people.

Often, they would colonize a square that my armies were actually standing on. That seems wrong. [we need a fix for these issues, ideas?, medium D8.2]

F168 (Kull) Task Forces: How do you take units in a single tile and group them into multiple task forces? It would be nice if you could use something like "Shift-click" to highlight multiple units and group only those selected. [D8.5?]

F169 (PGrignon) After re-playing several time the Dawn Scenario on my small machine (iBook, 128Mb, 800x600) here are some features that would be great to introduce.

Features:
- Ability to choose a different font.
- Hot Keys and shortcuts for switching windows
- Contextual menu on Units in Overall map.
- Using keyboard arrows to scroll/pan.
- Settings for not storing traces ?
- Overall view of all the units/task forces. (maybe organized in a tree view).
Civ:
- Province1
-- U1,
-- TF2 (#Units)
- Prov2
-- TF4
-- TF3
- Is it necessary to get all the econ indicators ? Hide show some of them ?

F170 (Martin) It is unrealistic and quite anoying that you can claim a number of tiles by simply passing through them. This is OK as long as there is no (and in some cases very few) inhabitants, but generally you should have to remain some time in an area populated by a different nationality than the invading army. One solution could be to add an occupy/conquer order. The time used to cary out this order should then be calculated based on the atackers strength and the population. A note here is that liberating accupied tretory should be easier. A nice touch would be to make provinces have a chance of revolting if owner is not native.
Naval units should not be able to conquer land tiles. Land there yes, but hold forein terrain no. And they should be penalized for fighting while docked/beached.
[need to discuss exactly what to do, but these are clear issues]

F171 (Mark) If build location has a name I would like to see it in the Events list rather than just [5,8] or whatever the location is. I would go further and say that if there is a name, there's no need for the coordinates. [low D8.1]

---------------- Requests for manual / tutorial topics -----------------------

(Alms) Unload option from naval units (also don't know how many units naval units can hold - see suggestion for the unit box reworking above for a temporary solution.) I saw this mentioned while going over the bug list, though I never knew it existed.

(Alms) Disband Unit/TF settles the current square if unsettled/adds back to population otherwise (we should probably tell people about this in the demo)

---------------- Keep this at bottom due to its large size -----------------------
F158 LARGE number of detailed suggestions by stickdude on the interface. Not high priority but useful to go over, maybe for D8. Some of the nonfunctional things he specifies should probably be taken out before D7.

---
First, I double-click the ClashD6_12.jar file, and I see the ...

"Select the option" screen
1. No splash screen, or opening movie... That's ok. The opening screen looks pretty good, and it works.
2. I know this is picky, but "Select an option" sounds better to me than "the" option.
3. The logo is a button, which seems odd.

I click on "Select a scenario" and up comes the ...

"Select the scenario" screen
1. Should this be resizable, or a fixed size? I vote for fixed, since it's acting like a dialog box.
2. Again, the logo on the left size is a button. Should something happen when I click it (right now nothing does happen)?
3. "Carthago delenda est" is the title of the first scenario. What does that mean?
4. I can delete all the text from the scenario descriptions. Should they be read-only, or better yet, not text boxes at all (see below)?

Here's what I'd expect to see on this screen:
1. All the scenarios are listed, but in a bigger font, and without descriptions. They aren't buttons, either.
2. The logo is still on here somewhere.
3. As the user moves the cursor over the scenario name, the scenario name is highlighted somehow, or a box drawn around it, or something to indicate which scenario you're about to select; and the description is displayed in a different part of the dialog.

4. If the user moves the cursor off the scenario name, the description disappears (basic mouse-over behaviour).
5. If the user clicks on the name of a scenario, that scenario is selected.

Ok, I click "Select" next to the first scenario, and I see the ...

"Select the civilization" screen:
1. Logo = button...
2. While typing this, I forgot which scenario I chose. It would be nice to have the selected scenario and the description displayed here so I can make an informed civilization choice.
3. It would also be nice to have a short description of the differing goals of each civilization in the scenario. Again, this should be a roll-over type effect.
4. If I selected the wrong scenario, there's no way to go back and choose something different. I have to exit and restart.

I click on "Computer Only", and after a little while, up comes the ...

"Clash Demo 6.1" screen
Impressions:
1. The map itself looks very cool. It's not a cool as, say, Age Of Kings, but I can live with that.
2. I'm not sure I like having everything in different frames, like it's set up now. That could be because I'm used to having one main window partitioned into different setions, instead of different windows.
3. On the menu bar, "Options" and "Econ Options" don't have any options below them. They should be grayed out if there's nothing to select.
4. Since the toolbar simply presents the exact options as the menus do, one of them feels redundant.
5. I have to click on a square/unit for them to show up in the Units/Detail Frame windows. It would be really cool for this to happen automatically as the mouse moves over a unit/square.
6. When I click on a unit and it appears in the "Units" window, it's nearly impossible to read the text above the units. Yellow and Green on a grey background doesn't work too well.
7. Also on the "Units" window, scrollbars keep appearing when they aren't necessary.
8. It would be nice to have more information about the units in that window. Simply knowing that the horse icon on the map is really two horse icons doesn't tell me very much. What are the capabilities of the individual units, how healthy are they?
9. Ok, I just right-clicked on one of the units and saw the little pop-up box that lists what I was wondering in the previous comment. It's not intuitive, though.
10. I restarted the game and am playing as a human player, so now I can see how to create/disband Task Forces.
11. I just disbanded a group of 4 units into separate armies. The last unit is halfway out of the "Units" window, but there's no horizontal scrollbar so I can scroll over to that unit; only a vertical scrollbar, which I don't need.
12. I'm getting the hang of giving orders. Pretty cool, once you get the hang of it. I like the "nearest friend/enemy" idea.
13. If I have a number of different units in a square, and I want to form them into two different task forces, is there a way to do that, other than move half the units to a different square?
14. Can we rename the armies?
15. Can we change the "martial attitude"? Does everybody just attack for now?

I clicked on "Economics" and "Civ Econ Orders"
1. Gasp! What is this? Text boxes everywhere!!
2. I can delete/change any of the text anywhere. I don't think I'm supposed to be able to do that.
3. I've read some of the discussion about completely re-doing these screen to make them more user-friendly, so I'll just wait to see the new and improved econ screens before commenting further.
Other thoughts:
1. I don't know how far along the economic model is, but it would be nice to see some highlights in the "Information frame" at the end of each turn, like income, spending, and current cash balance, units to be produced next turn, etc.
2. When I click "Next" in the Events window that pops up, it just disappears. I don't think it's supposed to do that.
3. I'd probably just use round numbers for the army attack/defence/health stats in the "Information frame". It looks kinda odd to see that my armies health is down to 5.2000003. Or better yet, why not just display them as percentages - i.e. "Health: down to 52%"
Ok, I've played 20 turns now, and the bad guys keep capturing my cities, so I'll probably end up losing. That's ok, though, because it's just a demo.
Overall, I'm quite impressed. The game clearly has a ways to go, but I can definitely see the potential.
---

[alms66]

After playing Attila (and others) as you suggested, Mark, I have a few more comments:

1. It's far too tempting to simply move the capital city just before it's about to be overrun. We need to add a 1 turn (or more) delay in this order and possibly a monetary cost as well. I know there will be more sophisticated measures in the future, but for now it should do.

2. I still find myself chasing units for far too long. If militia forms, I've never seen it. I still think adding a +1 to move for units in home territory and a move of 1 to units advancing into enemy territory would be worth while.

3. There was supposed to be a pop-up in Delenda, but there is none.

4. Even with the order set to 120 for several turns I never did build a trireme.

5. (Question) How do we load units into triremes again?

-Edit-
Mark,

F174 by me is similar to F168 by Kull

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Alms, thanks for the comments.

Originally posted by alms66
After playing Attila (and others) as you suggested, 1. It's far too tempting to simply move the capital city just before it's about to be overrun. We need to add a 1 turn (or more) delay in this order and possibly a monetary cost as well. I know there will be more sophisticated measures in the future, but for now it should do.

Ah, that's a dodge that I hadn't thought of. Consider the work around to be: Don't Do That! Eventually there will significant costs etc. that will make this truly a last-ditch effort. But it Has been done numerous times in the RW.

2. I still find myself chasing units for far too long. If militia forms, I've never seen it. I still think adding a +1 to move for units in home territory and a move of 1 to units advancing into enemy territory would be worth while.

Agree that we still need to do more. Let's discuss in the D8.1 thread.

4. Even with the order set to 120 for several turns I never did build a trireme.

Naval unit building is a bit of a kludge at this point. You need a Port to do it. For now building considers only the province capital to be a port. However, if the port is inland then the build prohibition about needing coast to build a naval unit kicks in. If you change your province capital to be on the shore, then it'll work fine. For D8.1 we should have Designated ports that show on the map to eliminate this problem.

5. (Question) How do we load units into triremes again?

Below is the blurb from the bulletin that Should pop up in Delenda (does on mine. . .) Did you look "under" the game to see if it was there? Does a bulletin show if you hit the Bulletins button?

Some Details on Triremes
Each side has a small Navy composed of triremes. You can load troops on to triremes for rapid transit across the Mediterranean, and also fight naval battles using them. Triremes can land on any coastal square that has a significant length of coastline. The AI doesn't understand how to use the triremes yet, so naval power is a bit one-sided so far. This scenario will get significantly more challenging when the AI knows how to use naval power.

To load a TF on to a triremes or naval TF, use the following steps:
1. Select the trireme or naval TF in the Units box so it has a white outline.
2. Group the land units that you want to load into a single TF. (Only a single TF can be loaded for now)
3. Right-click on to the land TF and select Load to selected task force.
4. The carried TF will now be shown grayed-out indicating that it is being carried.

To unload transported units:
Select the triremes or naval TF in the Units box so it has a white outline.
Right-click on to the transporting naval TF (or the grayed-out transported land TF) and select Unload from selected task force.
For now, ships that are caught in port fight as low-value land units, and are usually destroyed unless their side has land superiority.

[alms66]

Originally posted by alms66
3. There was supposed to be a pop-up in Delenda, but there is none.

Nevermind on this one. Apparently, what you sent me wasn't the latest build. In fact, it appears what you've been sending me the past few times was out of date, because things are much different now.

I went ahead and downloaded demo 8, unzipped it and dumped it over what I had before, so I should be completely up to date now.

[LDiCesare]

I'm posting a link to this thread in Alt civs and OT forums.

[alms66]

I didn't want to stick this in the planning threads because it may not be on everyone's agenda and Gary may have already done something in the editor...

Feature Request:

Turn Structure
Here's a mock-up of the xml:

<scenario>
...
<turnstructure>
  <timeunit>year</timeunit>
  <startdate>5000BC</startdate>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>50</timeunits>(25 turns @ 50 years each)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>25</timeunits>(25 turns @ 25 years each)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>10</timeunits>(25 turns @ 10 years each)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>5</timeunits>(25 turns @ 5 years each)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>2</timeunits>(25 turns @ 2 years each)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>1</timeunits>(25 turns @ 1 year each)
  </timeblock>
</turnstructure>
...
</scenario>

And the explanation:

Definitions:
Turnstructure – This structure defines the passage of time in this scenario.
Timeunit – This is the unit of time that the turn represents (years, months, weeks, days, hours, etc.)
Startdate – This is the start of the scenario.
Timeblock – This structure defines the number of <turns> to execute at the specified <timeunits>. For example, the following indicates that 25 turns will execute at 1 timeunit (year, month, etc.):

  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>1</timeunits> (assuming this is one year, this block represents 25 years over 25 turns)
  </timeblock>

Turns – See above.
Timeunits – See above.

Notes:
There is an obvious limitation in this structure. It does not support shifting of timeunits in midstream. That is, if you set the timeunit to a year, no turn can be less than a year. This can be sidestepped by going lower in timeunits than you initially desire. For example, if you want the last 24 turns of the game to be in months, use the following structure, rather than the first one presented:

<scenario>
...
<turnstructure>
  <timeunit>months</timeunit>
  <startdate>5000BC</startdate>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>600</timeunits> (50 years * 12 months)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>300</timeunits> (25 years * 12 months)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>120</timeunits> (10 years * 12 months)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
   <timeunits>60</timeunits> (5 years * 12 months)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>25</turns>
    <timeunits>12</timeunits> (1 years * 12 months)
  </timeblock>
  <timeblock>
    <turns>24</turns>
    <timeunits>1</timeunits> (2 years @ 1 month each)
  </timeblock>
</turnstructure>
...
</scenario>

If you calculate the times, you’ll see that both structures produce the same 2,325 years of time passed, though the second does shave a turn.

[alms66]

Another request:

Province List
mockup:

<province>
  <list>
    <name>name(1)here</name>
    <name>name(2)here</name>
    <name>name(3)here</name>
..........etc..................
  </list>
</province>

explanation:

List is the new tag. It merely supplies a list of names, used one after the other for naming provinces instead of 'Province 1', 'Province 2', etc.

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Alms:

The time per turn stuff won't have any game effects at this point. I guess you probably know that it would be just for show. I assume that the province list would be within the civilization tag so that names only pertained to given civs.

[alms66]

That sounds right, Mark. The time per turn stuff would affect the clock the player sees, so that turns aren't always 5 years long, that's it. It's a scenario utility. We could build game effects onto it later if we wanted to.

[alms66]

and more comments...

1. Shouldn't "Wall" references be "Fortifications"? It seems that this wall implies a closed structure (city walls), which could just as easily represent a castle or fort (thus I'm using it as such unless told otherwise). Or does this imply a "Great Wall" or "Hadrians wall" type of wall? Assuming it doesn't imply the latter, could we setup this latter type of "square-edge interlinked" wall?

2. (Specials have been done already) Add a "required technology" tag to Specials, Regimes and Social Classes. This would allow the emergence of regimes over time, the emergence of the middle class, and specials to "popup" once certain tech levels were reached.

3. Make roadbuilding work like walls, giving the ability to define multiple road-types and to control roadbuilding with technology.

Bug: I don't see it in the list so, could we fix the bug where specials don't get drawn after they get buried by fog of war? This is really apparent in dawn, with the wheat and horses disappearing after you move away from those tiles.

-Edit- Added 12/28/2004

4. Divide the Combat activity into Naval, Ground, Air, and Siege Combat. Check here at the Technology Test Scenario: Development & Discussion thread for more.

5. (Ignore, model reads this way, but it's out of date) Change techs to NOT be open-ended. They should stop sucking in RPs when they hit 100 (or preferably, a globally set number).

6. Add Requirement tag to technologies (accepts specials or other technologies with levels). This tag keeps the technology from sucking up RPs. Check here at the Technology Test Scenario: Development & Discussion thread for more.

7. Increase population growth rate, or better yet, put it in the scenario file as a property of the scenario tag (population growth multiplier).

8. Why does the ‘economics.xml’ file need to be external when all others can be integrated with the scenario file? Let’s make it so this file can be integrated into the scenario file, making the scenario file a stand-alone component. In fact, while we’re at it, let’s make ‘terrain.xml’ capable of integrating as well, since many scenarios will likely change these. Even ‘militaryattitude.xml’ should be capable of integrating since it allows some minor customization of AI behavior. Basically, every file that is in the resources folder could simply be a part of the scenario file eliminating the need for the resources directory.

9. (this one may or may not already exist as I thought I had submitted it before, but don't see it) Add the civ's treasury to the status bar along with population and date.

-Edit- Added 12/29/04
10. Need more activities. Speaking of which, why is Dawn the only scenario to use the Domestication activity? Also, what activities are planned for the future? Check here at the Technology Test Scenario: Development & Discussion thread for more.

11. Need a notification that some new unit is available in this format (perhaps):

Technology has reached level 5.2
		New Units can now be built (click brings up a list of items)
		New Infrastructure can now be built (click brings up a list of items)

12. Since Tiers are merely cosmetic properties anyhow, why put an artificial limit? Allow 4 or more tiers of technology. Check here at the Technology Test Scenario: Development & Discussion thread for more.

13. Can we add an additional road tile to the set? Call it roadC, for “road center”. Anytime a road is built on the tile, roadC is added in addition to other road segments. It will allow a less grid-like road pattern.

14. When all roads have been built, can we put “Civ has built all roads” instead of “Civ has built roads” in the event box?

15. Need to force city graphics to show on provincial capitols. In a field of similar terrain (Dawn map), it’s a pain to search out the capitol city when you haven’t visited it in a while and there’s no army or wall to mark the tile. And/or we could add a “Next Capitol” button to the interface, which centers the view on the next capitol in the list.

16. Can we add some extra black space at the bottom and right hand sides of the display map? The scroll bar cuts off the bottom half of the bottom row of tiles which makes them difficult to select, and for some reason the last column of tiles on the right is difficult to select. I often end up clicking the mouse 3 or more times to get a unit's move path set there. I assume it's a display problem. Anyone else have this?

17. Need to add a grid that can be turned on/off.
See http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...13#post3533513

18. Reduce the number of coastal tiles used.
See post at link below for details:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...70#post3534470

[Mark_Everson]

Yeah we definitely need to add those tech connections with the rest of the game. I buy specials and regimes, I don't think any games we're likely to do in the near future will introduce new social classes though. (Just trying to keep a focus on changes that we'll actually use soon.) Maybe we should discuss in the social thread if you think there's a good case for it.

Originally posted by alms66
Bug: I don't see it in the list so, could we fix the bug where specials don't get drawn after they get buried by fog of war? This is really apparent in dawn, with the wheat and horses disappearing after you move away from those tiles.

??? I see the wheat just fine through the fog. Anyone else not see it?

[alms66]

That's odd. It's been that way as long as I can remember. And the actual trigger is moving a unit into the tile.

Note that I've edited my previous post to add more comments and will continue to do so until it hits the maximum limit or the next demo comes out.

[CapTVK]

Mark,

That in-game tutorial is a godsend.

[Locutus]

Nice Christmas present

Unfortunately I'm very busy and it may be a while before I get around to playing it

[Mark_Everson]

Thanks CapTVK and Locutus. Looking forward to hearing your comments!

Happy New Year!

-Mark

[Mark_Everson]

I have added Alms' requests from above to the Feature list. (and updated a few bugs too) Does anyone have comments on on Alms' suggestions or my rankings? If so, please speak up.

[alms66]

Mark,
A few comments on your comments:
F196 is done for techs, not for specials, unless I’m mistaken.
F197 Scenario Designers will want this, I’m certain. It would be an independent multiplier from tech. This way you don't have to mess with the tech model to increase population growth if you don't want to.
F200 You can delete it.
F202 You can delete it.
F205 I’d delete it, except keep the next capitol button part, as that would be useful on large maps later.

[Rasputin]

dpownlaoded and played today, liked the concept a lot , however the game play is pretty loasy at moment. having to click on all those buttons to do things is rather a bit mundane. Cant we just right click on the unit on the main map to perform the actions then move it with the moouse. rather than using the separate units window.

Ease of play increases the fun and that is really missing at present IMHO.

[alms66]

Originally posted by Rasputin
Cant we just right click on the unit on the main map to perform the actions then move it with the moouse. rather than using the separate units window.

Ease of play increases the fun and that is really missing at present IMHO.

That's what I keep saying!

[Mark_Everson]

Thanks for the comments Rasputin. Feedback like that from outside the group is valuable in helping us to determine what is most important to do next.

So Alms, be honest did you bring him in just to say that?

Cya,

Mark

[alms66]

I'll never tell.

1. perturn event
If we don't have one already (and I didn't see one), we could add a perturn event which forces some action to occur every turn, rather than on a single turn.

2. Raid Order
See:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...77#post3533877

3. Outposts/Vision Radius
See:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...27#post3538227

4. Settlers/Explorers
See:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...95#post3540995

5. Changing Terrain Images
See:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...07#post3538707

6. Next Field TF & Next Home TF
Add these two buttons:
Next Field TF: Selects next TF not on owned land
Next Home TF: Selects next TF on owned land
And let's bump these up in priority, eh?

*Watch this post for future edits.

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Thanks for the comments Rasputin. Feedback like that from outside the group is valuable in helping us to determine what is most important to do next.

So Alms, be honest did you bring him in just to say that?

Cya,

Mark

I didnt even realise all the comments here were from within the group. I just followed the links from Marks name and thought mmmm this game sounds interesting.

I loaded it at work and myself and another work pal played a few turns but found it tedious to get into (yes i know it a demo) the many buttons across the top filled my screen and having to click END Turn repetively was time wasting as was the fact of having the UNIT Window to move the Unit.

Good job guys, hope you get some easier interface over time.

I will pop in from time to time to check.

[alms66]

Originally posted by Rasputin
I didnt even realise all the comments here were from within the group. I just followed the links from Marks name and thought mmmm this game sounds interesting.

Most of them are, some aren't. I think I've taken the lead in the highest number of comments.

Originally posted by Rasputin
I loaded it at work and myself and another work pal played a few turns but found it tedious to get into (yes i know it a demo) the many buttons across the top filled my screen and having to click END Turn repetively was time wasting as was the fact of having the UNIT Window to move the Unit.

Ah, playing games at work...you gotta love that.
Being able to use keyboard shortcuts would be a great thing to add. I also think bringing back the 2Turns, 5Turns, 10Turns, etc. button, but allowing the player to set an arbitrary number of turns would ease those long stretches where there's not much to do but hit End Turn. (It would be a great aid to testing for sure)
I also dislike that unit window and would like a seperate 'Army Manager' screen for splitting/merging TFs. Orders to units could then be given from the toolbar and/or from the right-click menu on the main map, which is my preferred choice. There's a comment of mine somewhere in the feature request list about getting rid of the Units window.

[Rasputin]

said i like the sound of this game, but at present appears too many windows need to be kept open , which for a game in which you state you want limited micromanagment it has a lot of managment requirements. far more than any of the "civ" games.

[alms66]

F184 (Alms) Graphics Terrain Transitions.
[no clue as to importance, others?]

F187 I’d (Alms) like Larger Tile Support:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...459#post3483459

I'd rate these of relatively high importance. The larger tile support is essential to drawing proper mountains, hills, trees and other 'elevated' tiles while the transitions would improve the look of the tiles by making them less blocky, and in general, make the game a little more sexy. Its also a generally accepted fact that sexier things get more attention.
Seriously though, the larger tile thing is a very easy fix and transitions, while the hardest of the three big graphics requests by me, is very important to making the map look as good as possible, though I think we can live with the blockiness for another demo or two.

F185 a. (Mark) Should have an indicator on the map that shows where provincial and civ capitals are. Maybe a star in the civ color, or a flag or something. Also put in a target flag in the AI so that provincial capitals can be targeted specifically. [medium, D8.1]
b. (Alms) And/or we could add a “Next Capitol” button to the interface, which centers the view on the next capitol in the list. [low D8.5]

Maybe we should add the capitol's name to the map as well? In a similar manner to Civ. We could also add population like in Civ.

[Rasputin]

have you guys considered using hexes instead of squares? usually makes for easier movement .

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by alms66
I'd rate these of relatively high importance.
(snip)
though I think we can live with the blockiness for another demo or two.

IMO it should wait maybe a few demos as you say. BTW I was looking for input from Others on the importance of those features. ;-)


Hey Rasputin. Hexes are harder to draw, and we account for the movement asymmetry between directions since movement costs 1.4x as much along diagonals. The long term plan is to go to a continuous coordinate system.

[Rasputin]

oh ok, glad you have thought about it .