Master of orion II like civ?

[Father Beast]

I just bought Master Of Orion II and although I haven't loaded it yet, I have been reading the manual. (yes, disgusting habit, I know. I can just hear all of you saying "manuals are for wimps") I am surprised by the similarity to civilization it seems to have made. I am a big fan of MOO1 and note a bunch of civlike things in MOO2 that aren't in MOO1.
assigning citizens to tasks (scientists, farmers)
any real buildings at all, except for missle bases, stargates, and planetary shields.
Governments.
happiness of citizens.
citizens as integers, they were 32 million, etc.
I can't help but think that they drew on civ to change the game. I hope I like it as much as Master of Orion. I love civ too, but they are different enough that I wonder if melding them will work.

[The Mad Monk]

I went the opposite route--I played MoO2 for nearly a year before I picked up Civ II. Other then the fact that there isn't any terrain to speak of, they are quite similar.

Similar enough to get you in trouble if you use a civ-style build strategy to play the game.

You will find that colony management is much easier--a six place build queue is a godsend--and that diplomacy is more realistic. You get the impression that unlike the Civ AIs, the MoO AIs are unaware that they're in a game (Allies remain allies, attitudes aren't guaranteed to go downhill simply because you're winning, etc.).

A couple pieces of advice:

Build points carry over to the next project without penalty, so if you want to insert a small projcet ahead of a large project your're already in the middle of, feel free; this is especially true if the small project in question will boost production.

You can freely switch research goals, again without penalty, but research point DO NOT carry over--if you switch to a lower cost goal, you WILL lose any excess points.

Take Automated Factories and Research Labs when they become available, and build them on all colonies ASAP; AFs should be the first thing built on any colony, and when you get them, slip them in ahead of whatever you're building at that moment, no exceptions.

As a corollary (sp?) to the above point, I tend to concentrate on Construction and Computers as much as I dare, reseaching Chemistry, Sociology and Biology when 'comfortable', and Power, Fields, and Physics when absolutely necessary. But that is just me...

Oh yeah, one more thing...building your own races is FUN. I never play with the standard races anymore. Try a creative / lithovore combo. Anything involving cybernetics or subterranean is also good.
[This message has been edited by The Mad Monk (edited May 30, 2000).]

[Garth Vader]

Moo2 is my favorite game, but then I like anything that I can design my own ships!

[Father Beast]

If I can get the game working (it crashes whenever I start a new game), it will be hard tomake the transition from MOO1. MOO1 automatically added the range of new fuels to your ships, while you had to design new ones for faster drives. I could also build custom colony ships with weapons added in MOO1.
Then again, Civ in space? this might not be quite so hard

[The Mad Monk]

Hmmm...how is it crashing? That never happened to me.

You will find that certain sytems, especially the range-extending power supplies, will be automatically upgraded on all of your ships, no matter where they are.

The main hangup in using a Civ-based strategy is that Civ is always unit-heavy early on; if you attempt that in MoO2, you will get squashed--you need those industrial and research buildings good and early!

BTW, I always start pre-warp, huge galaxy, 8 players, all options activated. If you want to design your own ships, you must have tactical combat activated.

Good MoOin'!

[Father Beast]

It crashed by giving some wierd error message and shutting the game down. I would watch the opening movie (not as good as in MOO1 BTW) and select new game when it came up. as soon as I click, the game is gone, I'm looking at my desktop with this error message in the middle of the screen that has an "OK" button on it.
I downloaded a patch, and it seems to work a bit, but it still kicks me to the desktop without warning in the middle of a turn. I ended up installing it for dos, and that seems to work a lot better.

hurmm, now back to the game.

I was a little put off by new ship designs just appearing when I got new tech, but that's actually okay, since I can modify designs whenever I want. I was really freaked by the space hydra. I thought it was just a random occurence, but it seems to be protecting this really great system. kind of like a mini orion. And that's another thing that threw me. my scout gets destroyed, but I still get the system explored. I like it, but how is that really possible?
I am astonished, actually. They seem to have almost redesigned the game, but as I get used to it, it is getting as addicting as the old MOO. I'm still in the beginning of my first game, and I haven't beat the hydra, and am making guesses as to what to research next.
But I like it.

[Father Beast]

Is there any sort of site dedicated to MOO the way apolyton is for civ? it doesn't look like we're going to get a moo section here, so where can I go?

[The Mad Monk]

Back when I first got MoO2, I didn't find any 'big' sites--mostly a bunch of little 'fan pages'. Since MoO2 isn't exactly 'scenario friendly', I wouldn't expect any; it seems to be a prerequisite for big, long-lasting sites...

Of course, we can always discuss MoO2 here...

Hydra, eh? That must be a damn good system; AFAIK, the hydra is the second worst monster, after the space dragon. If I remember correctly, hydras have around 500 structural points, no armor, and average 130 pts/hit--and they never miss.

The best way to take them down early in the game is through nuke missles--MIRV'd, and lots of'em. Are you able to MIRV nukes yet? If not, research Chemistry unitl you can (don't bother with Merculites, the Pollution Processor is more valuble), and then design the following ship (if you don't have all of the following, build at least three, and count on losing at least one):

Battleship hull
Specials: battle pods, reinforced hull, heavy armor (if you build two, RF or HA alone may suffice)
NO shields! Type I's will be useless at this point, anyway.
Weapons: 3 Nuke missle batteries, all MIRV'd, all set to a capy of 2 (default is 5); if you intend these ships to be used for more than monsters, set the first battery only to 5. Fill the three batteries as much as you can, saving just enough room for the lightest possible energy weapon battery.

I call this kind of ship a 'Slayer'. The theory here is that most monsters will trash low-tech ships within three rounds, and more often two; because of this, missle battery magazines larger than two are counterproductive becase they allow you to launch fewer missles at the same time, and because no more than two missle volleys are usually launched anyway (usually, either the ship or the monster are dead by this time).
Sometimes, a battle will end with the ship's magazines empty and the monster crippled and unable to attack, but still alive. This is where that light energy weapon comes in: it serves as a 'dagger' to finish the beast off.

The Slayer makes an excellent early game ship, and a good "support" ship later on.

[Hendrik the Great]

With no offence but I find your strategy of building those missiles boats with battleships hulls as I like to call them a waste of resources and unnecessary risk. Lose one or two and one is in potentially serious trouble. It is far more efficient to built a dozen or more destroyers and/or cruiser with only battle pods in them and then rockets x 2. If one is a bit lucky early in the game one or two dozen of those can easily overmaster any kind of defense one can think of. And it always works as long as you are the attacker even later in the game. Imagine 10 or 20 cruisers full with x2 Pulson missiles and some, 5 or 8, with fighters. The loses of small ships can always be replaced in no time. Through in 4 or 5 good all-a-round battleships with a decent defense and offense and you've got the galaxy at your feet! Send after them 20 or 30 transports and watch history unfold...

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Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html

[The Mad Monk]

Actually, I do use missle destroyers like you describe later in the game; if you have fast missle racks, you can dump the entire load in one shot and retreat without losing one. Of course, if you do that, You still need a couple battlewagons to stick around and absorb damage until all the missles strike home--that's why Slayers make good support ships later, they can take hits while other ships do the damage.

The reason I prescribe battleships is twofold. First, they are much more likely to survive combat with a monster (remember this is a speciallized ship made for this task), whereas smaller ships will definately take losses (monsters almost alway get the initiative). Second, battleships are impressive. It dosen't matter that the ship can't last past two rounds; the AIs only know it's a battleship and plan their strategy accordingly--which usually means they leave it alone, unitl the buildup becomes rediculously obvious.

I tend to get very speciallized with my ship designs; the only generalized ships are titans, and even they tend to be built-to-task.

[The Mad Monk]

I just re-read your post and noticed you mentioned that attacking gives the advantage; this is true only if you haven't loaded the patch, or are 'opting out' of individual initiative. If you have the patch (and I've been writing with this in mind), individual initative determines turns by which ships are faster and have better computers, not who 'attacks' first. I also suspect that the patch made the AIs harder vis-a-vis mass missle attacks: they get extremely proficient at shooting missles down...

[The Mad Monk]

Jsut remembered another reason: early on, control points and credits are both at a premium; while you could probably build twelve cheap destroyers faster than three of the battleships I suggest, the destroyers would consume 24 control points, while the battleships would require only twelve. This would be much easier for a young stellar empire to handle. In terms of combat, three destroyers are about equal to one battleship, similarly equiped.

[Hendrik the Great]

You are probally right. But early in the game and juts need many ships fast so as to handle my 2 or 3 wars all at once. True, a battleship would be better and more effective but usuay until it is finished I rahter have a dozen desroyers or cruisers because normally do need reinfocements in numbers fast. Loses? Who cares! With my selfmade races it's no problem to built many ships fast.
And you are correct, I do not have the patch you were writing about. Where can I get it?

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Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html

[The Mad Monk]

Sorry about the delay:
http://support.microprose.com/

Select the game from the pull-down menu, that will take you to the appropriate link.
[This message has been edited by The Mad Monk (edited June 07, 2000).]

[The Mad Monk]

FB, were you able to fix the crashing problem? If not, can you get a screenshot of the error message and paste it here? (If that dosen't work, e-mail it to me)

edit: dang it, all these recent MoO2 threads got me playing again!
[This message has been edited by The Mad Monk (edited June 08, 2000).]

[Father Beast]

Umm.. I did get the game working in dos mode. I still have the occaisional dropout without warning or message, so I save often. but I can always get back in.
I always loved the designing of custom units in MOO, and it really hasn't changed much for MOO2. AC's units workshop doesn't hold a candle to the possibilities.
I'll have to try that technique with those missle battleships. my beam weapons didn't seem to be doing much. One problem, though. I don't think I have the option for mirvs on my tech tree. maybe my buds the psilons can help me out.
the tech in this game is kind of a hassle. I keep searching the manual every time I come across a new tech, or the psilons want to trade techs, or I want to choose my research. Searchin the manual just trying to find what I want. I am probably going to have to break down and make my own chart, just so I can keep track of which tech is which.
I don't have a lot of time to play, but it is fun.

[The Mad Monk]

If you have the same manual I do, check page 102; it should be 'Modifications' in the 'Research and Development' section. MIRV is a product of 'miniturization'; the more research you do along a given tech path, the smaller and cheaper previously discovered techs along that path get. Do enough reseach, and every missle system can be MIRV'd. For nukes, this happens at Pollution Processor / Merculite Missle.

One implication to miniturization and weapon upgrades is that the newest system isn't always the best; in fact, my experience shows that more 'mature' systems are always the better choice. Exception: lasers. Get rid of them ASAP.

[Father Beast]

Hmmmnnn. let me check the manual.
Yup, there it is. so it should show up in the design options once it becomes available, i.e. it has gone 2 levels of minaturization. I remember reading about it, but it didn't sink in. I think I'll go after that space hydra right quick.
BTW, why do you say the class 1 shields are about useless? the last time I got trounced by the hydra, I found it gave another round while it burned the shield down. Well, almost another round.

[The Mad Monk]

It's all a question of how you balance the design; type I shields do absorb damage, and if you have no other defense techs, they can be vital.

If you do have other techs available, the equation changes. A standard battleship, for example, has 50 armor and 50 structure points; type I shields add 20 points (per side) to that, (and can regenerate, but in battle with a hydra that's not a consideration). We can assume that the ship can take 121 points before "dying"--so far, so good. Now look at costs: the shields take up 50 space; a reenforced hull also takes 50 space, but triples structure (150 pts), so if you replace the shields with the reenforced hull, you have a 200 pts. instead of 120 pts., for the same (space) cost. Heavy armor does the same for armor pts., and costs the same; Tritanium triples whatever you already have.

So why not put everything in? Because you still have to pack in lots of missles, and if you want to have enough to insure the kill, something's got to give. You can figure out how many nuke missles you need by dividing the hydra's structure by eight, or by thirty-two if they're MIRV'd. Gotta love MIRVs!

[Father Beast]

Mad Monk,
I did what you said, and sent 2 battleships with 14 mirved 2 shot missles each at the hydra. I still had my class 1 shields, since I only have tritanium armor. It managed to destroy 1 of them (those missles move slow!) but got killed after all. unfortunately, some antarans happened by and blew the heck out of my battleships a few turns later. are they fast, or what?
Oh, and it was a nice planet in that system. Huge, Gaia, Ultra Rich, with natives. I got advanced city planning soon afterward and it has a pop limit of 32.
All of a sudden it was just as addicting as the original MOO. I found myself putting dinner on 2 hours late after just a few more turns got out of control.
any suggestions about hose pesky antarans?

[The Mad Monk]

good job on the hydra...dang, I knew I forgot something...

The recommended tactic when using missle ships is to launch the missles, and then move the ships away from both the missles and the target. The idea, of course, is to keep out of range of the enemy (missles have unlimited range). Since enemies tend to charge forward first, then fire, they often waltz right into the missles and die before they get a chance to strike. You move away from the missles so that in the event of a "warp core breach", you won't take your own missles with you.

Antarans...ah, my favorite prey. Capture an Antaran frigate, and you have easy access to xentronium armor, damper fields, all kinds of wonderful and nasty techs. The particle beams they mount do 10-30 damage each and are shield-piercers--that is they ignore shields; xentronium gives them ten times the 'normal' armor and structure (forty each on a frigate), and the damper fields reduces all damage on a hit to one-quarter the norm, effectively multiplying their armor and structure by an additional four (160 each on a frigate).

Unless you have ships that can handle the damage, and can deal at least 160 points of damage in short order, the best course may be to abandon the colony. The best way to attack the frigates is with loads of missles; a plantary missle base is very useful in this regard, and can usually be set up in the time required. Star Bases work too, but unless you have good computers, any energy weapons fire is liable to be wasted.

I usually don't destroy them; I board them.

The best way to do this in my opinion is through the use of assault shuttles--tractor beams will hold frigates, but there are never enough boarders in a given ship, and damper fields rip transporters to shreds.

Assault shuttles give an excellent proportion of space used to troops carried. Antarans are tough, so be sure to have decent armor (at least zortrium), fusion rifle or better, and both the anti-grav harness and the personal shield (I say this because they are the best choices of their respective groups, and go a long way toward correcting shortfalls in the armor and rifle techs). Powered armor is best if you're a creative race, but isn't worth the loss of robo-miners otherwise. Pack enough shuttles as a single weapon to insure at least sixteen marines will hit the frigate (four shuttles), and expect to lose the first boarding action, with about two of the antarans' five marines remaining. You should win the second boarding action, with the antaran ship self-destructing half the time.

This leads to my second 'specialized' ship design, the 'Hunter'. Again, using a battleship hull (or a titan, my preference) fill up on the defense techs, but forget about missles. In this case will want to install heavy neutron blasters (if you have them), battle scanners if you have them, and at least two banks of four shuttle units each (four for titans). The neutron blasters kill one marine for every five points of damage, so it makes things easier for the boarders. Just don't lump all the blasters into one battery, or you'll end up destroying small ships you wanted to capture!

NOTE: neutron blasters are NOT for use on the Antarans; xentronium and damper fields both block the marine-killing effects of both neatron blasters and death rays--a very good reason to capture these techs all by itself.

Best tech to capture / acquire: xentronium, followed by the damper fields. Do whatever you must to get them, and never release them to anyone else.

Hope it helps!

[The Mad Monk]

Any opinions on your neighbors, yet?

[The Mad Monk]

I have been inspired to create a MoO2 web site...

Adjustment of shield opinion: shields are possibly a better choice on frigates and destroyers; because their strength increases linearly with hull size (unlike hull points), they become much less useful relative to armor as hull size increases.