{The List} Scenario/Map Editor (v.2)

[DarkCloud]

Introduction

Here's the Scenario/Map Editor section of the list; dealing with all modability and customizability and rules editing for the Map Editor as well as all possible Game Modifications and Scenarios and additions that Firaxis might wish to add to Civ IV.

Thanks! -List Threadmaster DarkCloud

Summary

Basically, the major desire of the scenario creating community is for Civilization IV to be more Scenario-building friendly than Civ III.
One of the major desires was for the limitations on population limits and map size to be raised or destroyed altogether since in these days of 3 GHZ+ computers and computers with 512MB+ RAM, most computers can handle that sort of power.
Therefore, most people desired "more" customizability and "more" power.

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NOTE TO SELF: Logged thru 20-07-04

Related Threads:
{The List} Scenario/Map Editor http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=103820 DarkCloud
Civ2 editor style or Civ3? http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=105404 Nuclear Master (LOGGED THRU HENRIK 03-01-2004 20:27)


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Index
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1.0.0 The Scenario Editor
2.0.0 Scripting Language
3.0.0 Map Editor
4.0.0 Maps
5.0.0 Resources
6.0.0 Unit/Wonder/Improvement Modability
7.0.0 Editor Support
8.0.0 Civlopedia

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The Ideas
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1.0.0 The Scenario Editor
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1.1.0 Basic Design Philosophy
*I think the civ2 editor works better for creating scenarios, because you could basically make any concievable starting position, but it's not as good for editing rules and stuff.

They should be hybridized somehow. Perhaps there should be a rules editor, and then you can load a rules file and make the scenario in a civ2 style editor.
-Jaguar Warrior

1.2.0 The Cheat Mode
*The Game needs a Cheat-Mode option for easy modification either "in game" (a la Civ II) or in a special scenario-editor image screen.
*The Cheat Mode should also be included in the regular game as a 'sandbox mode' for newbies or people who enjoy to cheat.
-Jaguar Warrior

1.3.0 No Limits
*It would be very nice indeed if the various limits (maximum city population, maximum number of units, maximum map size, maximum number of civilization, maximum number of unit types, maximum number of terrain types, etc.) were set very, very high indeed. (ed- Especially since computers nowadays are much more powerful than computers in the past.)
These limits can hamper the creation of scenarios, partucularly large scenarios - I certainly had that problem in Civilization 2 - The Gold Edition.
-Roman

1.4.0 In-Game Editor
*In Civilization 3, I never even bothered creating scenarios. The out of game editor was actually a major turn-off, since it is frequently much easier to create scenarios through a combination of playing and editing/modification than through an editor alone. Hence, I would strongly recommend an in-game scenario editor for Civ IV.
-Roman

1.5.0 Flags
*I want to be able to make national flags for nations in scenarios
-POTUS

1.6.0 Tierd Maps
*I'd really like if they put back the ability to play on multi-tiered maps, like in Civ2ToT, although it might not be realistic to have them permanently fixed together (teleporting from one hex brings you automatically to the same numbered hex on any map you can go to); but perhaps there can be designated 'link-points' between the maps like in Sim City 2004 or in Heroes of Might and Magic III?
-Jawn Henry

1.7.0 Altering Maps Slightly Still Allows Players to get in Hall of Fame
*Be able to alter city lists but still be in the hall of fame.
-Brent

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2.0.0 Scripting Language
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2.0.1 Scripting Language Like "Empire Earth's"
*The game should have a scripting language a la that included in Sierra's Empire Earth. If the game could have a language of that power, with the ability to trigger events that occur at certain dates, or that occur when certain actions are taken, then scenario-makers will feel more empowered and enjoy the game more since they can create more realistic scenarios.
(example: If Berlin falls- then Division I and II of German Tanks surrender {even if they weren't produced in Berlin} and their parts can be scuffled and sold in the nearest allied city for more goldpieces.)
-Rasbelin,DarkCloud

2.0.2 Scripted Events
*There should be scripted events
-et. al.

2.0.2 Triggers
*The Scenario Editor should also have the option to trigger mutliple actions with one event.
(example: Germany attacks France which causes both the US and the English to auto-declare war)
-Mongoloid Cow

2.0.3 Trigger Limits
*The Scenario Editor has an option which allows the player to forbid alliances from happening as well as peace agreements.
However, the editor should allow scenario creators to put a limit on the time when alliances and peace agreements can be made.
(For example: "From 1940-1945 the Germans cannot ally with the French... however in 1946 in this hypothetical scenario, General LeMond Le Monde turns traitor in Tunisia and allies with the Germans as a puppet state)
DarkCloud

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3.0.0 The Map Editor
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4.0.0 Maps
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North America; South America; MesoAmerica;
North Atlantic including parts of North America, Europe, and Africa;
Europe; Mediterranean including parts of Europe, Africa, Middle East;
Africa;
Middle East;
Asia; South Asia;
Indian Ocean including parts of Africa, Asia, Australia;
East Asia;
A large map of the Pacific including New Zealand and parts of Asia, Australia, North America;
The World in at least five sizes
Chiron in Earth Terrain (ed- As a possible Easter Egg?)
-Brent

*Surface-Area Correct Earth Maps
-Ribannah

*The Editor needs a zoom function
-BarnDoor

*Fix the weirdness civ3 has with the bottom edge of maps.
-Skywalker

*Include a map with Earth's coastlines, but all of the land is grassland.
-Brent

*The world as seen on old, inaccurate maps.
-Brent

*Include official scenarios with major rules variations
-Brent

*Perhaps include some sort of campaign scenario; like in Empire Earth or in Age of Empires that takes a nation through 5-10 maps on its conquest of the world?
In order to alleviate tensions about 'favoritism' in picking certain earthly nations, perhaps one nation from Europe, one from Africa, one from the Americas, and one from Asia could be chosen?
At the very least, this might be a good idea for an expansion pack: "Warring Empires" or something of the like.
-DarkCloud

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5.0.0 Resources
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5.0.1 Pollution Rates
*Pollution rates should be editable in each city, and for each square on the map, as well as the global pollution rate.
DarkCloud

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6.0.0 Unit/Wonder/Improvement Modability
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*Unit and Improvement builders, similar to SimCity SCURK and BAT...
-Jarred

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7.0.0 Editor Support
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*Have more information about the editor in the manual.
-Brent

*Release a book with suggestions of things to do with the editor, such as civs with traits, cities, and leaders.
-Brent

*With each new expansion, include updated versions of previous scenarios.
-Brent

*Host a "Map of the Month" contest at a Firaxis Website to promote the game. Or alternatively, release a new map each month.
Amazingly enough, these overtures to the fan community actually sell games- personally I purchased Rollercoaster Tycoon, Total Annihilation, and Neverwinter Nights becuase of the extent to which those games' corporations had gone to support them.
-DarkCloud

*Have an editor wizard. Have it tell you how balanced civs you create are. (Ed: In essence "Map Verification") Let it tell you how well your tech tree flows, and point out loose ends. Have it decide which scenarios are hall- of- fame- worthy.
-Brent

*I personally would like the game to generate a flow chart for technologies or unit relationships that could be printed out or displayed on a website- sort of like "THE SIMS" viewer for families.
That would be amazing and would save hours for scenario-designers.
-DarkCloud

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8.0.0 Civlopedia

*Be able to type dialogue and civilopedia text directly into the editor.
-Brent


Conclusion

FILL IN

Respectfully Compiled: DarkCloud
With special thanks to: Asmodean, MarkG

[DarkCloud]

*Place Holder*

[DarkCloud]

*Final Place Holder*

[KenderBane]

I dont know if I'm too late to post on this topic, but I'm gonna have my say ... even if nobody listens.

The editor should/ could include premade unit and resource icons and animations that aren't used in the 'standard' game but are readily availible for editing.

[DarkCloud]

No, don't worry, you're not too late. Please, keep contributing if you like

[KenderBane]

Heck, just for those of us that are 'technology-declined', you might even include a brief tutorial on how to use the editor.

[DarkCloud]

bumping this since it's more complete.

[PresidentMarcos]

Bring back scripting. The ability to structure events and gameplay according to a predefined plan was a very nice kind of thing. It was too bad that it wasn't in Civ3.

[AroSch]

Things that I missed in Civ3 editor:

- fortify units in editor and give them orders ("go to", for example)
- loading units on ships with editor
- preset diplomatic agreements in editor (trade, non permanent war, ...)
- much more...

[Brent]

Map selection should work like in Civ2. You should be able to position custom civs on any map. You should be able to alter any map.

[Colonel Kraken]

The map editor must have a copy and paste function!

[Arrian]

Kraken beat me to it. YES! Cut 'n paste!

I want to be able to grab a continent from one map, and stick it on a new one and go from there.

-Arrian

[Brent]

Be able to turn off major features of the game, like military leaders, continental congress, religion, combat, cities, technological advancement, wonders, etc. Turning off military leaders would be good for civs with limited available names.

[Heresson]

I agree with these demands or whatever.

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
The map editor must have a copy and paste function!

That's what I always wanted to have

One very important plea when it comes to Civ4 scenarios,
IT MEANS A LOT TO ME AND NOT ONLY TO ME I GUESS
Civ2 scenarios should be able to be upgraded to Civ4 ones without any problems, without writing all the events, creating the map, placing the cities, drawing the units etc once again.
Just click - upgraded
This way You could incorporate Civ2 community into Civ4 as long as Civ4 would have all the options Civ2 had
and was simply a good game.

[Brent]

Is that possible?

Maps: Coastlines

Be able to set the shape of a coastline between two tilesthe way you want it, to accurately represent a specific part of the real world. Be able to set the shape of a one tile island, like Cyprus or Gotland for example.

[Heresson]

That would be nice, but I seriously doubt they will do it.
You'd have to choose the shape of each coastal point on the map - it wouldn't make sense to make part look ultra correctly, and part simply tiled.
Iaken into account that there are many maps possible, at least should be, each map would have to have its own file depictiting the look of each tile...
No, it's possible in EU2 perhaps, but not in a game like Civilisation

[punkbass2000]

All of a sudden Herresson gets realistic

[Heresson]

I do not mind shattering someone else's dreams...
I'm just protecting my own

[Brent]

Maybe just do it for islands then, and have the game plug in the preshaped islands randomly on random maps.

Rule Variation for Scenarios

Be able to use SMACish borders in scenarios.

[Heresson]

\What do You mean exactly by that?

[DarkCloud]

I suppose he means borders that fluctuate based on land ownership... like Civ III?

[Heresson]

That's what I thought

[Brent]

SMAC borders are not the same as C3 borders. A SMAC base can claim a lot more territory than a C3 city.

[Heresson]

Yes, I do recall... But that's not good idea, then.

[N35t0r]

I want to emphasize the importance of the text files and easily editable image files Civ2 had... most of the time, it is much easier and quicker to use notepad to alter something than use the editor.

Another thing: Avoid applying limitations to stuff just because it wouldn't be realistic. In Civ2 at least, there are tons of scenarios that make use of nonstandard rules combinations. For example, the use of paradropping 'transport planes' with transport capacity. Or, allowing the paradropping of ships and use it as a 'warp drive' on space scenarios. Both of which would not be possible if paradropping was limited to land units (which would be superfluous as you can always not give said ability to units you want)



In the field of improvement / wonder modabilities, the key is to flexibilize as much as possible. From the short glances i've taken at the civ 3 editor, i've seen a small improvement: you can edit wonder effects.

It'd be nice to have it even more editable, and, for example, be able to to chose how much extra movement units get, and also if it is all units, or only sea units (or air, for that matter).

Allow something similar for city improvements.

Also, the 'working tech' was an interesting addition as well. in Civ2, temples required a certain tech to 'work' (actually, 2 techs affect this), which could be different from the one needed to build them. Furthermore, coliseums increased effectiviness with Electronics, and the opposite happened with Cathedrals and Communism.

Technologies could also affect other stuff, such as unit stats perhaps? (a 'battlefiled medicine' tech that increases HP, or an 'Armour Piercing Shell' one that increases the attack of units (or only of certain units) by one. Possibly also technology that improves terrain enhancements. (crop rotation increasing irrigation bonus from 1 to 2 for grass and plains?).

Perhaps also providing several flags for different unit types. (which can be cummulative... perhaps 'artillery', 'horse' and 'armoured' can be some.) This could allow a huge amount of editability, especially when combined with the above options. 'armoured' units needing a factory to be built, and having extra attack with the 'armour piercing shells' tech described above, instead of it affecting infantry as well. Also, allowing 'pikemen' units true extra defense (how much should be editable) versus 'horse' units.

[Heresson]

I thought paradroping ships are impossible in civ2?

Anyway, I agree,
especially when it comes to wonder part.
You should be able to chose the effect for each wonder, and combine them

[N35t0r]

They must 'land' on a land square, but they can move to sea (or attack adjacent squares) from where they land....

You can paradrop them from a city or from an airbase (add an airbase and change terrain to ocean to get ocean airbases)

[Brent]

Variations of One Map

When the game sets up a scenario, be able to allow it to change the map by varying degrees. You could tell it to keep the coastlines but surprise you as to the terrain.

Scenario Design Shortcuts

Have different categories of scenarios preprogrammed: historical, alternate history, fantasy, future Earth, other planets, space, mythological, fictional. Space would have default terrain, and historical would default to standard terrain.

Minieditor

Have a separate minieditor where you can only change things that will not affect the fairness of the game, like giving one civ a combination of characteristics that a different one has anyway; city lists; barbarian tribe lists, graphics for rulers, cities, and the palace, etc. Things that would not disallow the Hall of Fame. Have it as a minieditor so you can set things to use more than once, but also be able to set these options in an optional extended startup.

supersmallscale scenarios

If this is truly to be an umbrella game system, it should be possible to model in detail a small battle on a small amount of land: units are individual human beings, individual buildings within a city can be terrain features, turns can be minutes or unspecified periods of time.

[Brent]

Re: Minieditor

More options for this:

altering graphics, unit names, and improvement names. Also be able to rename a type of improvement ingame when you build the first one, and be able to rename an entire type of unit anytime ingame.

[Modo44]

A thought about a simple editor feature that would be extremely helpful when adding new things to the game. Came up in another thread, so here's the link:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...03#post3403103