Advice for Yang

[Hydro]

Hello all.

I’m currently involved in a MP game. We elected for random factions, and I got Yang. Good ‘ol Sheng-ji is one of my favorite SMAC characters, but I have to admit I’m not a natural playing a ruthless tyrant. The other MP is playing the Spartans, and the AI factions are Dee, Rose, Lal, Domai, and Sven. We’re playing on the Ultimate Builder’s Map of Planet. We’re using blind research (as it should be).

I’ve read Vel’s guide, of course, and Yang’s advantages are obvious: immunity inefficiency for free police/planned, and perimeter defenses. What I’d forgotten is how crippling the –1 economy can be.

My strategy is to play Yang as a hybrid under the assumption that I’m far away from potential rivals (right now, that is). I quickly discovered that recycling tanks are absolutely critical, as is keeping my cities at size 2 to get decent energy production. I like the +4 support and +2 police since it means cheap garrisons can keep the drones from rioting, and I don’t have to build expensive infrastructure my puny economy can’t afford.

As of right now it's MY2150, and I have 10 bases (which isn’t too bad considering my starting territory is bad for the Ultimate Builder’s Map) with a few more colony pods out and in production to be planted soon. As per a hybrid, every other base is building 2 formers, with one or two garrisons. Terraforming is my friend. I have a Yang thin expansion strategy, with plenty of space to expand all over creation, if I saw fit to. I’ll grab WP with ease in the not too distant future, and maybe either CN and HGP. I’ve been very careful about pod popping, placing bases next to pods to ensure I get a good result. No debilitating worm attacks yet.

What is my problem? Technology, of course. It’s 2150 and I don’t have Ind Base or any weapon techs yet! Ack! Good thing I’m far, far away from anyone. How do I know this, you ask? Well, 2 pods had comm frequencies, one for Dee and one for Rose. Both are pacted with me now (with Rose submissive; go figure), so I probably know more about the world than anyone from their world maps. I can also infer where the other factions are likely to be, and they aren’t anywhere near me.

Any advice on boosting my science output? I have seven recycling tanks up (4 from pods, btw) and I’ve devoted four bases for infrastructure and 2 are building NNs. I have a Unity foil I got scouring the seas with a Unity rover to pop coastal pods (at 2 hex/turn it takes forever). My allies won’t trade tech since Rose has VW and won’t give up Plan Net, and Dee has Ind Base and won’t let me get ME (as if that’d be a loss).

Well, I’ve droned on (if you’ll excuse the pun). Any Hiveans out there with sage advice?

Hydro

[Ouro_827]

I'm not that good, and I would not think I could instuct you, at all... but your best shot for the Hive is to Landgrab... pretty much... Your growth is decent, except it is much harder to boom for you... the thing of it is though, for tech, the Hive's normal best weapon is crushing it out of their opponents... simply build a huge military of scout rovers if needed, and threaten them or smash them... And get their techs...Of course, you said they wouldn't trade.. not knowing that map, can you probe yet or not? I don't remember if that is Info or planetary.. If not, that would be a primary tech.... You'll have a decent go of pop booming by golden age though, because you won't have any drones in the first place, so if you let your economy drop for a few turns while you boom, you wshold be fine... till of course your bases are 7, assuming you can support that... Anyways, as a disclaimer, I'm not excellent with Yang either... No one gave me advice when I asked for it.. and my bro who loves him ain't around...

[TheRedmenace]

Yang's energy penalty really hurts, especially in the way early turns because your unimproved squares probably aren't yielding any energy in addition to the -1 per base meaning you could be stuck at just +1 energy for the first 20 turns or more! What this amounts to is an early research handicap which in my experience can be worse than the Believers.

The most obvious answer is steal it. Usually you want to pick one faction and just hammer it for all their tech (so pick a good researchers, such as the University) since your liberal view on the dissemination of research data will likely land you in Vendetta with your victim. Either as a precursor to an all out war, or as the opening stages of a war, you want to probe until you get tech parity. Then let your massive industry go to work and flatten the other guy into a Chiron pancake.

The other option is something you want to keep in mind if you're a builder, and that's librarians. Once you get planned, you can switch a few over easily. If you're going hybrid you may choose to keep one or two citizens librarians at every base, but this seems to get the most mileage when you crawl minerals and nuts and just convert an entire population over to librarians.

Switching to wealth will turn your -2 ECON into a -1, which amounts to just -1 energy at the base square. Your commerce rate will still suck, but it'll give you enough energy to do something, and the +1 to industry always helps. It's ideal to have the Command Nexus for this since it'll help mitigate the -2 Morale. It's a pretty powerful combination, and as Yang you're relying on numbers to win your battles, not training.

The final answer though is you probably can't rely on your own research. You just won't get as much out of it as Morgan, Zakharov, or Aki for a faction of the same size. If you're going to play the Hive, knock a faction or two out early, and use the mass to just do MORE of everything, since you can't do it better.

[Hydro]

Thanks for the feedback. I like the idea of 'appropriating resources for the People'. Also known as stealing. Very altruistic, in an immoral way, you see.

But, my nearest neighbor is probably 50+ sectors from me, and I have neither Doct:Flex nor Plan Networks. So, no foils and no probes. I'm a long, long way from Ind Auto, which means wealth and formers. Once I get there my troubles are over since my production bump will kick in big time.

As near as I can figure I have to get 20+ bases up and running. I may even get there w/o bureaucracy drones - I'll have to check the map size and compute what my first size plateau is. I figure half of these bases will focus on infrastructure, a quarter on expansion (which will never really stop - a base gives you 4 support, so even a size 1 base is worthwhile, up to a point), and the rest to military stuff.

At this point my options seem limited. I've done the obvious: solar panels everywhere (starting with terrain 1000+m) and forests to get energy (lots of terraformers helps here), roads to goose expansion, and rovers to go fungus diving (love those Chiron Pearls!).

**sigh**

Morgan sounds much more fun right now...

Hydro

[Dis]

Yang does suck

I had success with him on the lower levels. I tried him on a Transcend game and got my ass handed to me.

On lower difficulty levels I can play builder with him. Just keep plopping down cities. You will be able to amass a large army and build a decent number of secret projects with improved production.

It is advised to conquer your nearest neighbor and force him/her into submission.

ICS may be the way to go with this faction. I never ICS, but I will build a lot of cities as the Hive.

[Googlie]

H:

Sign up for the Hive faction in the current ACDG game, then go into the private forum and follow how Kody transformed the Hive into a powerhouse.

I saw tips and techniques there that even Vel hadn't thought of or come across

G.

[Jamski]

Yang does suck

The Hive is reckoned to be one of the most over-powered factions. Played well there's no reason not to get every SP, fill the map with bases and crush everyone.

The secret is simply to use the Hive's +1 Growth and +1 IND, combined with Planned and Wealth for +3 Growth and +3 IND, to expand 30% faster than the others. Simply put - more bases, closer together. Each individual base sucks, but as a mass, you can out tech and out build all the other factions.

-Jam

[Kody]

I suppose it's time to release some of the strategy material from the hive.... This is going to be over several posts, and I won't claim to have found all the strategy stuff embedded in all the spam the hivers were so fond of making .

[Kody]

I'm a fair bit overrated in my opinion. I just spent a long time thinking of strategies for the hive because I was so worried my faction would get destroyed.

The game I was in I never had any energy credit problems due to stockpile and resource pulsing which meant average of 75% of my faction's gross mineral product was getting stockpiled every turn... I won't really go into that.

Anyway here's my thoughts on how to stay even with tech while playing the Hive from a builder perspective from the mid to early game.

There were two main ways to stay up in tech from my perspective. Diplomancy/techpath and Resource Managing.

Diplomancy/techpath

The techs you choose are fairly important. My preference for the Hive were three main targets Ecology->Planned->IA. Use MinuteMirage's tech sheet to figure out the path that requires the least number of offshoot techs, then try to get the order as closely as possible. After that decide the tech depending on the game.

If you can form a good alliance with a human player you can get some very good advantages with the way to trade tech. That's right, not what techs you trade for, but the way you trade tech is the biggest advantage you can get via Diplomancy.

Skipping techs is very important. For example if you manage to skip industrial base through trading, then it will keep every following tech cost down. In game we managed to skip 2 techs and I'm guessing every tech we researched cost about 25% less.

Strategy Post in hive-drone embassy
I've figured that the chassis weapons and armor techs don't always need to be shared. Mobility and flexibility only needs to be researched by one faction. Then it is simply a matter of gifting a foil chassis and a rover chassis to the other team for a turn. This inserts the chassis into the design workshop and the design can easily be adjusted by the other team without having the tech.

The same applies to weapons and armor, the design workshop easily allows for the units to be built without the required tech.

If we play the cards right we may be able to trade the important benefits of military techs while still keeping low tech costs.

Try and figure out how fast you and your ally are gaining techs and when then do your best to plan out a tech path that allows you both to skip as many techs as possible. Again use MinuteMirage's tech availability sheet.

If someone already has the tech you're currently researching you can get it and switch the research to the next tech without losing lab points.

Sometimes when trading for the prerequisite techs it's better to get the prerequisite tech after finishing the current research. I found that by getting the prerequisite beforehand it could increase the research cost by about 200labs. While choosing a random tech, getting the prerequisite, then changing the tech to the tech you got the prerequisite for would lose you only half the accumulated lab points. In one case I lost about 50 labs points out of 100lab points when doing this, but the next tech cost about 200lab points less so I saved a turn and a half in tech research with that little stunt.

(Ahh the Hive getting IA before the university did, wouldn’t have been possible if we hadn’t skipped a tech and pulled that last stunt I mentioned.)

Resource Managing

A few general notes…

* There was a quirk with the Hive early game since the Hive tended to have minimal energy I found setting 30% energy 10% pysch and 60% labs seemed to have minimal effect on inefficiency for the first 30 years....

* Whenever a tech finishes researching, any additional lab points from the base that finished the research are lost. I tried once arranging workers in bases and energy settings to adjust energy levels so that these lost lab points would be reduced. It’s really not worth it unless you’re losing more than 10% of a tech’s lab points to this effect, mainly because it’s too much trouble calculating trade income and if you balance it too finely then something your treaty/pact mate does can stop you can delay your next tech.

* For the Hive you have an unused forest and are able to build crawlers, aren’t currently pop booming then, don’t build the recycling tank first. Build the crawler instead. I think recycling tanks are somewhat overrated in Vel’s strategy guide. The reason for that was because the recycling tanks took longer to build and had slower returns. 2 minerals per turn gives faster returns than the recycling tank does. Also as it cost less to build you get more stockpile energy as you’re finishing builds more often. Also food and energy have slower returns when you’re still building up your crawler fleet, minerals give faster returns in stockpile and more crawlers. Later after the crawlers started filling up all the forests energy started getting fairly plentiful from all the stockpiling. This meant that I could rush buy recycling tanks the same turn I started building them (10 mineral carryover due to mineral balancing), or just some crawler rehoming. I usually aimed to build all the facilities in a single turn, managed to do that with about 70% of them.


With this game it’s possible to exchange one kind of resource to another kind. So when dealing with the Hive I took the approach of exchanging minerals for lab points. There were two main methods that I figured out would assist with tech. Either exchanging minerals for crawlers that would crawl energy to a super science city or exchanging minerals for nutrients, which then were used to create librarians and hence tech.

The direct path from minerals to crawlers to energy to lab points wasn’t pursued. Mainly because the Hive managed to get the SPs that would allow pop booming. If things had gone that way I suppose the ME would be built with the capital moved to where the ME was and most of the nearby bases making crawlers to crawl minerals to the capital while the capital built facilities to increase the yield of the energy.

The Hive managed to get the PTS and HGP, also grabbed the VW to annoy the university. We were aiming for the WP, but Drones our allies got it first. So we ended up with a larger than usual crawler fleet which kept growing while we researched biogenetics. This resulted in us getting more SPs in the long run.

The PTS is fairly important and if you get the HGP at the same time drones won’t be a problem. These two SPs are fairly important for increasing your population and ultimately research. VW is also useful as it assists in pop booming.

In the game I played technology was going to be the deciding factor in the whole game. So that was the main goal after getting as many SPs we could get our hands on. Analysis of gameplay posts about the hive revealed that specialists was the main way to go with the faction. This was because energy inefficiency would take a large toll on directly gathered energy.

Originally my plan was to create a city by the sea move the capital there and trawl energy to that. Then I realised from a lab perspective it was better to get kelp and go specialist and it meant that the capital wouldn’t have to be moved. Then I realised the sea crawlers were a fair bit more expensive than land crawlers (until the next reactor upgrade). This meant that it was far better to go hunting for nutrient bonuses on the land early on and condenser them all.

So we went after nutrient lifting so we could build condensers, while at the same time preparations were made for golden pop booming. It was found that you need to build the children’s creche first, as the growth bonus doesn’t work for golden age booming the turn it’s built. However, the children’s creche can work instantly to produce growth by cutting 2 columns from the nutrient bars.

So the trick for fast efficient growth from size 3 to size 7 for the hive was. When base is size 3 and has enough food stored that if a children’s creche is built it grows immediately to size 4 then start the following procedure. (assuming VW and HGP)

Turn -1:
* shuffle crawlers/rush buy a little so 10 mineral carry over.
Turn 0:
* base has enough nutrients that if children’s creche is built it will grow to size 4.
* rush children’s creche, add crawlers so 10 mineral carry over next turn.
* set 2 doctors
* base size currently 3 (No food is required as the base doesn’t eat when growing this way)
Turn 1:
* children’s creche is built, base grows to size 4 as a result
* 2 doctors causes 2 talents, golden age growth happens before psych calculation, base enters golden age. (important as 1 turn lag in golden age booming)
* rush buy network node
* base size currently 4 (need +2 food)
Turn 2:
* golden age growth to size 5, (2 doctors, 2 talents, 1 worker)
* network node is built, VW causes 50% more psych due to node, (2 doctors 3 talents)
* base stays in golden age
* set 3 doctors, 2 talents
* base size currently 5 (need +2 food)
Turn 3:
* base grows again
* stays in golden age as 3 doctors 3 talents
* unset all doctors, use specialists to gain labs.
* base size currently 6 (need +2 food)
Turn 4:
* base grows again to size 7
* drops out of golden age

The way bases were chosen for pop booming was according to the way b-drones would appear. You see we didn’t want to delay base planting while pop booming. So we figured out exactly where the b-drones would appear and planned for bases to finish booming to size 7 when b-drones would appear from our next base plant.
http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...90#post2596390

Strategy Post in hive-drone embassy
Predicting B drones

I noticed the drones had to quickly switch from probe team to rec commons last turn due to a B-drone.

I believe figured out how the B-drones work. There's a gobal list of cities. Depending on where your base is in the list the cities gets a drone.

The list works as follows.
If the first beaucracy limit is 7, (for the map googlie made it is).
* Then on the 8th base, the bases 7,14,21,28,35 in the list will get drones.
* When the 9th base is planted bases 6,13,20,27,34 in the list will get drones.
* When the 10th base is planted bases 5,12,19,26,33 in the list will get drones.

As you see the pattern continues until we get 14 bases. Then I assume on the 15th base we get the 2nd set of beauracy drones.

So technically it's possible to build 13 bases that are free of beauracy drones. However that would require that your 13 bases are in the base order of 8,16,24,32,40,48.... etc in the gobal list of bases.

The problem is it requires a bit of work figuring out what number each base has as it also depends on the bases that other factions plant.

If the drones would be willing to give the build dates of each of their cities we might able to predict when certain bases will generate B drones.

The hive (2102) - BDrone level 7
Voltairegrad (2106) - BDrone level ?
Kommuniza City (2107) - BDrone level ?
Jamski Clove (2119) - BDrone level ?
Feckin Cheeky Tower (2123) - BDrone level ?
HongHu KongHu (2124) - BDrone level ?
Rokossovky (2129) - BDrone level 7
Googliegrad (2129) - BDrone level 1

BDrone level 1 - A Bdrone is generated on the 14th base.
BDrone level 2 - A Bdrone is generated on the 13th base.
BDrone level 3 - A Bdrone is generated on the 12th base.
BDrone level 4 - A Bdrone is generated on the 11th base.
BDrone level 5 - A Bdrone is generated on the 10th base.
BDrone level 6 - A Bdrone is generated on the 9th base.
BDrone level 7 - A Bdrone is generated on the 8th base.

Since your turn is right before us, if we have planted bases consecutively the BDrone level can be predicted if we know the BDrone level of one of the previous bases.

Living Standards (date???) - Bdrone level 7

Anyway if you don't have the time you don't need to particate in my Bdrone mapping project.

PTS pod booming was mainly used for generating colony pods that went to creating new bases. I was paranoid about getting attacked and uprooted several of the earlier bases for PTS pod booming so I could plant sensors under them. This had the added benefit of crawler rehoming which I took advantage of and managing to basically half the actual cost we paid for the colony pods.

It was planned that after golden age booming became impossible, pod booming would be used. That didn’t happen we because managed to get enough of an advantage and switched to war production. Here’s a few strategy posts on that.

Strategy post in the Hive
We have a few options for pop booming available to us.

1. Normal pop booming via golden age. This means building treefarm, network node, children's crèche, and then allocating 50-80% of our energy to psyche. All our bases will boom up size 7 fairly rapidly. The problem with this is, pop booming is disabled for 14+ bases and hence we have to delay planting 7 of our bases until after we have completed the population booming.

This will only be possible to implement after we have already gotten tree farms. Also we may become short of energy as the due to the upkeep of the facilities.

2. PTS pod booming. Build 3 colony pods, plant one get 2 extra population points back. The two extra pods are moved into another base. Need a few crawlers to crawl minerals into the base.

3. Golden age with doctors only.

Golden is very possible with the HGP at size 4 and with 0 psyche allocation. Two doctors can be set to make the city go into golden age, if a network node is built. Combine this with a children's crèche and the city can boom up to size 5.

For size 6 cities it is possible to pop boom if the 3rd efficiency limit hasn't been reached. 3 doctors are required, and a network node, a tree farm, and a children's crèche.

With our current land area we have 1 more base than the 3rd efficiency limit. So either we PTS/pod boom any bases that are BDrone level 7, or we can hold off building that 29nd base.

One good point of this is that the +2 nutrients only need to be available after the golden age has been initiated. This mean it is possible to have insufficient food while the doctors are causing the golden age. In the next turn when the doctors are workers again the city will grow from the pop boom.

4. Golden age with doctors only, unlimited pod builder.
It has been discovered that if a pod build is timed correctly a size 4 base can be in perpetual pop boom with two doctors, children's crèche, network node, and some crawlers for food. Add enough minerals to build a colony pod every turn and we have an unlimited colony pod base.

__________________________________________________ __

After this analysis it has been decided to use mainly the PTS pod booming until network node and children's crèche infrastructure can be put into place.

When the children's crèches and network nodes are in place pop booming with occur in size 4 bases with emphasis on timing the golden age pop booms such that most of the food has already been queued for a short wait to size 6. The golden age pod factory will be used to bump up size 3 and size 5 bases, putting them in position to pop boom up to size 5 or 7 respectively.

It is believed this combination of tactics will be able to keep us on par with the other factions with respect to population at least until we hit the expected 7 limit. As our spacing is only designed up to size 9 cities, stringent population planning shouldn't be required after that.

Pod Booming
http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...56#post2527756
Golden age infinite pod factory
http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...26#post2464226

Afterwards I decided I took the wrong approach…..

Strategy Post in hive-drone embassy

Darn it I made a big mistake.

I should have used the dual feeder base with PTS pop booming and auto rehoming. Rather than the golden age with doctors strategy.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showt...11#post2527811
After describing the PTS pop booming with dual feeder base system, I realised that it costs less per population point to implement that than it does to golden age. Just the cost of the creche that doesn't have to be paid will offset the cost of the construction of the colony pods.

The problem of requiring land is offset by the the fact the hive has enough land at this time. The cost of the colony pods is offset by not having to build all the facilities in many bases.

Overall it would have pushed the tech rate far faster. The mircomanagement is actually more localised and hence easier to calculate. Also the upkeep of facilities in many places would recoup any losses even assuming non-optimised PTS pop booming.

Once you get the bases up to size 7 you can take use this strategy for faster tech rate. Basically I forgot to mention in the following post that you can starve your city when you set specialists and as long as there is at least 1 food in the nutrient box the city won’t lose population. That means as well as alternating the minerals every turn you can alternate the food, switching between +1 food overall to a negative food amount on alternative turns. This method also allows you to have less condensers than you otherwise would have as you can share a condenser between two cities. The bad thing is it requires horrible micromanagement and if you fail to keep your eye on it then your city starves.

Apparently, the effect of cities switching to a different faction only happens after consecutive turns of rioting, so you won’t lose cities this way.

Strategy Post in hive-drone embassy
I was thinking about how drone riots only affect production.

I believe it would be possible to alternate between using workers and using specialists in a base, when you're strapped for cash and can't afford drone control facilties.

Basically one turn you set all your citizens to workers. In the following turn production occurs and you accumulate minerals etc. Drone riots will start, but they only affect the following turn's production.

You then change all your workers to specialists. Assuming you have recycling tank you'll only have 2 minerals coming from the base square and this can be used up with support. So technically you will lose no production whatsoever.

In the following turn your city being full of specialists will stop rioting and you can switch them all back to workers.

Keep repeating until you can afford the drone control facilities.

Ironically we did well enough that we were soundly beating the university at their own game with respect to tech rate.

Googlie:
The Hive forum doesn’t have all of the technical explanations on strategy. There’s actually more in the Hive-Drone Embassy, with the following member restricted thread being the major discussion thread. (there’s more distributed around)
http://www.civgaming.net/forums/show...7&page=1&pp=10

[Kody]

Other observations that were made a long time ago on mindworm patterns…….

Strategy Post in hive-drone embassy
Observations from 4000 reloads in the hive simulator.

I was just wondering if others could tell me what their experiences on these issues are. I was reloading a save repeatively in the scenerio editor to see what kind of random effects might happen. Note that I'm not entirely sure on all these issues.

* mindworms always attack an adjacent base before any unit. This means if a mindworm is next to a base your units not inside the base square are completely safe from attack.

* If forest A grows onto forest B, forest B will pass on the growth of forest A to another randomly chosen square. This is apparent when you have forest growth that is stated to be next to base A (where forest A is nearest to). However the forest appears near base B (where forest B is nearest to). If a forest grows onto a square it is not allowed to the growth is lost.

* random mindworms are generated in response to the presence of a faction. You can remove the fungus near your bases and the mindworms that would have appeared next to your bases will start spourting in fungus further away from your bases, or at sea. If the probability of mindworms appearing is reduced by any of the techniques explained below, then the mindworms will be more likely to appear in fungus further away. The probability that a mindworm will appear in response to your faction does not change. Rather the distance the mindworm appears changes.

* If there is a continent with fungus and no cities on or anywhere near it. Random mindworms will never spawn on it. As they spawn in response to factions.

* sensors and bases reduces the chance of mindworms appearing in a radius of 2. However there is still a slight probability that a mindworm will appear. Note that mindworms often appear 3 squares away and move in through the fungus. In order of least likely to happen, to most likely to happen.
- Mindworms will most rarely appear in a fungus square adjacent to a base. (only saw it happen once) Note that with all my tests every base also had a sensor under it. I'm not sure if base and sensor effects are culmative.
- Mindworms will rarely appear in fungus adjacent to a sensor.
- Mindworms might appear in fungus 2 squares away from a base.
- Mindworms can appear in fungus 2 squares away from a sensor.
- Mindworms most often appear in fungus 3 squares away from bases.

* It appears that moving a unit through a fungus square removes the chance that a mindworm will randomly appear in that square for a set amount of time (not sure how long).

* The chance of mindworms generated by a unit moving through fungus near bases or sensors are modified in a similar way to the probability of mindworms appearing near sensors or bases.

* A square can generate mindworms twice in a row, but after a unit is sucessfully moved through that square it rarely produces a mindworm.

* Units never get blocked by fungus if they are moving onto a fungus square that already has a unit on it.

* If an isle of deep appears from a pod and your ship moves away, it will usually head for the nearest city.

* If an isle of deep appears from a pod far away from a city (greater than 10-15 squares, not sure exact number) the isle of deep will usually just sit there.

*After about about 10 turns isles of deep that appear from pods or randomly from fungus will disppear off the face of the earth.

* An sporelauncher on an isle of deep was noted to disembark when there is no terraforming that it can destory. So placing units over all the terraforming within 2 square radius of the sporelauncher may force it to disembark.

* When a fungal bloom occurs it checks the closest fungal patch near the base in a 3 square radius. If there is no fungus near the base it will usually generate fungus two or 3 squares to the north-west of the base

* When fungus patches are of equal distance to the base. Fungal blooms seem to occur in a clockwise direction starting at the north-west with a roughly 50% chance that each patch will generate the bloom. When the bloom occurs the fungus will grow from that fungus patch towards the base in question.

* In single player fungal blooms can be immediately covered in the same turn by forest. As production is calculated before forest growth in single player.

* In multiplayer forest growth is calculated when the last person in the turn order clicks end turn. In multiplayer the fungal blooms are calculated during the production phase of each base. If a base that is earlier in the base list than the base that produced the fungal bloom that base still benefits from the square before the fungal bloom.

* The battle odds displayed aren't an accurate display of the actual odds. When odds of 3:2 were tested 400 times the probability of the unit winning the battle seemed to be 85%. This is probably due to the odds on a per damage baias is 3:2 however the effect of the damage probability is averaged out by multiple iterrations and hence the probability of the unit winning the battle is much greater than 3:2.

Strategy Post in hive-drone embassy
Only one thing that slightly contradicts my observations. Isle of deeps will according to my observation usually head for nearest coast - not base.

If there is no coast in a radius of something like 4-5 squares it will just sit there. At least I seem to remember Isle of deeps unloading on uninhabited islands and the "they will move towards the coast" hI have used as a rule of thumb since v long and I don't remember seeing them behave otherwise (say head for some coast other than the closest because it had a base on it).

Interesting on the occurence of "wild worms".

[Hydro]

Kody,

Well, that was a Hive Dissertation!

A few notes, though.

First, we are not using directed research so there are no b-lines. We can set research priorities, but that only slightly reduces the randomness of the tech lotto. So, many of the nifty tricks you mention, unfortunately, won’t work. My research priorities are currently set at Build/Conquer.

There is only one other MP faction, and we’re not allowed to contact each other until we have actually made contact. Until then I have to deal with the AI for diplomacy and tech trading. In general, the AI will not trade a tech that has an SP attached to it. That means I’m shut out for a while, and perhaps permanently (especially since I have no Plan Net, and probes).

Many of the terrific tricks available to the Hive (and everyone else) come after you have SE options, nutrient restrictions lifted, and IA. I have none of these yet. Boo, hiss.

I agree that RC may be overvalued. But, when your bases are producing NO energy due to the –1 economy the Hive is really in deep doo-doo tech wise. My tech rate was initially every 16+ years and dropping, and that spells paralysis for any faction. Then I started pod-popping (putting my bases next to pods, or pairs of pods if it worked out), setting my build to RC and got real lucky and got 4 free RCs (no cheating, either) at my early bases. That helped a lot. Other bases built them, rushed at the end of course. Now my tech rate is at least as good or better than Rose and Dee (AI). I’m way behind the other MP faction (Spartans).

I like your pop-boom tricks and will try them. Due a quirk in tech advances I have crèches (demo SE is useless, of course), but not Ind Base or any weapons tech. I was trying to go for Plan Net/Ind Auto but I don’t have that luxury anymore. With no weaponry or armor at turn 2150 I have to get my butt in gear or I will be dog meat when the Spartans show up, perim defense or no.

With our Planet size B-drones will start after I found my 10th base. I never dug into B-drones as deeply as you have, but I guess I’ll have to if going for ICS. I’ve got tons of room, and some decent territory. Scouts should keep the drones at bay for a while, and I’m prepared for that as my few development bases go to size 3 (woohooo!).

Thanks for the juicy info, though! I’ll have to read through it to make sure I get to taste all the Hivean delicacies.

Hydro

[Kody]

Many of the terrific tricks available to the Hive (and everyone else) come after you have SE options, nutrient restrictions lifted, and IA. I have none of these yet. Boo, hiss.

I only started looking at what my faction was doing in the later part of the early game. By the time I learnt the basics of the game and starting moving onto more advanced strategies my team had crawlers.

First, we are not using directed research so there are no b-lines. We can set research priorities, but that only slightly reduces the randomness of the tech lotto. So, many of the nifty tricks you mention, unfortunately, won’t work. My research priorities are currently set at Build/Conquer.

Even using blind research you can figure out which are the possible techs that will be allowed. The game chooses a tech automatically after you finish an advance and I'm 99% certain it will only choose a tech that corresponds to the techs that would be displayed for directed research.

That means it might be worth some effort to choose which direction you will head in according to which branch has the more useful "possible" techs. There's the mod 3 rule which means sometimes it'll be more likely the game will choose a tech you are after if you go after a particular area.

With our Planet size B-drones will start after I found my 10th base. I never dug into B-drones as deeply as you have, but I guess I’ll have to if going for ICS. I’ve got tons of room, and some decent territory. Scouts should keep the drones at bay for a while, and I’m prepared for that as my few development bases go to size 3 (woohooo!).

B-drones are only important for a faction that is using pysch or wants to delay drone control up to the very last minute. If you intend to use golden age then yes it will be useful to look into it. Otherwise it's not worth the headache while playing the Hive.

[Hydro]

Actually, each technology has a 'factor' for Explore, Discover, Build and Conquer. For instance, Synthetic Fossil Fuel is E4, B2, C1 and D0. So, if this were a tech you may get (eg – have all the prerequisites) you would choose a Explore for the research strategy, or maybe Explore and Build. But, there is a random chance to it, too, and you may not get this tech. Another tech with an Explore or E/B orientation could come your way.

Although it is frustrating, this is why I like non-directed research, since it more closely approximates how science really works: you put an emphasis on where you want to go, and you may be surprised on what you actually get.

If you’re interested in what the technology factors are, hunt down the old Prima Official Strategy Guide. Someone may already have put the tech factors in a spreadsheet. Or, if someone asks, I can whip one together (for those few who don’t use directed research, that is).

Hydro

[Kody]

For the technology, what I mean is that due to the mod 3 rule it is possible at certain times you'll have the technologies in the Explore section reduced in what can be randomly chosen.

Hence at certain times you'll have a higher probability or even a 100% probability of getting a specific tech. I believe Blind research is still restricted by the mod 3 rule.

However, there is also a good probability that the joker tech applies for a subset of the full range of tech types. I suggest reading the "Beelining for Industrial Automation" thread where alot of this stuff was hammered out.

What I'm getting at isn't about how the game works. It's about how the game is programmed, probably won't be in that strategy guide you mentioned.

[Sikander]

Regarding combat odds:

You are correct about the odds displayed being correct only for each round of combat. They are only correct for the outcome of the combat when both units begin combat with only a single hit point remaining. When units are at full strength (and equipped with basic reactors) the first unit to inflict 10 points of damage wins, which makes a slight advantage much more important than it may seem at first. As the reactor techs (and thus hit points) improve this magnifies the likelihood that even a small advantage will win the day.

Interestingly in real life combat by fire tends to follow the same logic, though the math is different. Imagine a battle between groups of identical robots eqipped with identical weapons (which always kill when they hit) and operating on a featureless plane where every robot can fire with the same effectiveness on every enemy robot. The relative strengths of each side prevailing in the combat are equal to the square of their actual numbers. Thus in a combat between 6 robots on one side vs 4 robots on the other, the 6 robots would prevail 36 times out of 52, for odds of 9 to 4. Thus they have a better than 2 to one chance of winning a combat in which they only outnumber the enemy by 50%.

[Vev]

Ah yes, the mysterious combat odds, someday I might even come up with an explantion.

[Hydro]

Quick update:

We’re on T2157 and The Hive has finished the WP. We have the highest population, and have just topped the Most Powerful (whatever that means) score, likely due to the SP. So, things are looking up. I finally got some armor, but no weapons yet. I'm prototyping the synthmetal on a rover base, of course. My tech rate is getting better, though, so I should get some weaponry soon. There are 12 Hive bases, and due to b-drones I’ve started building vertically. Drones are getting to be a problem even with +2 police, so HGP is my next target. One base has 3 (!!) nutrient specials (can't share with any other base, though) with a mineral special within the base radius. I am going to use my vast psychic powers to suggest this base will be growth and production powerhouse. Still Pacted with Dee and Rose, but I don’t call them much. Not much to say, and it only annoys them.

The Spartans are almost done conquering the Drones. Boo, hiss.

Our anthology is posted under the title Mind or Muscle over at the Fiction forum for anyone that is interested.

Hydro

[Lazerus]

One base has 3 (!!) nutrient specials (can't share with any other base, though)

If you've got 3 specials within just 1 bases radius then you really need to pack your bases tighter.

Brilliant tips Kody
I'm going to have to try that golden age size 3 to 7 boom sometime soon.

[Hydro]

With a few exceptions all my bases are three sectors apart. This base, however, was an exception since I wanted it to be placed so that it would be adjacent to two pods, since I’ve NEVER gotten a gad result when popping a pod adjacent to a base. Both gave me a nutrient special. A third Unity pod two sectors away gave me the third. The mineral special was always there.

Boy, I wish I had crawlers!

Hydro

[Lazerus]

yikes 3 squares apart ?!

yeah pods do not give fungus or worms at anytime when they're popped next to a base

[Hydro]

Clarification: bases are spaced such that an infantry can support the next base in one turn for Vel's 'Rover Defense' model for base spacing. Depending on how you look at it, the bases have 2 sectors between them or are 3 sectors apart.

This base-by-pod strategy works well. I got 4 free RCs out of it, with no reload cheating, either. That is huge for anyone, and especially for The Hive which is energy challenged.

Hydro