i could live quite well with 5,3,3.
is the idea of reducing movement to 2 off the table?
I can go along with trying a straight change to 5/3/3 in the initial C3C version of the mod and seeing how we like it. For better and for worse, it's probably going to pretty much destroy the strategy I used to put away the "Son of SVC" game - a cavalry charge straight into the teeth of the leading AI's riflemen (but before Bismarck had time to finish upgrading). That could be a real problem trying to come back from a tech deficit. But in most of my games, I stop engaging in offensive warfare when the enemy gets Nationalism.
The other interesting twist is that eventually, AIs do tend to upgrade to mostly musketmen. In the Chasqui game Dominae posted, I researched through Navigation in order to open up transoceanic trade routes before going on to Military Tradition (with a detour through Steam Power, no less, while trying to build up my forces for upgrade). I had such a ridiculous tech lead that I still had plenty of time to wipe out the Mongols and kick the Dutch and Chinese off the continent, but but the Mongols and Chinese seemed to have practically all musketmen defending their cities. (The Dutch, of course, had their own special brand of menace for my cavalry to deal with.) In essence, the change is going to make delaying a cavalry blitz instead of beelining to Military tradition a bit less of an option for civs intent on cavalry conquest.
Nathan
i could live quite well with 5,3,3.
is the idea of reducing movement to 2 off the table?
- Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity
- Atheism is a nonprophet organization.
Reduce the movement rate and I probably won't play with the AU Mod. Fighting with 3-move units is too much fun.
I just thought of a problem with having only a 5.3.3 version of cavalry. With the French musketeer now having a defense value of 5, cavalry will have as much trouble against those guys as they do against riflemen under normal rules. That will be annoying, to put it mildly when the French, happen to be in the way.
Not so annoying as playing against Greece in the ancient age.
"As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW
I could handle 5.3.3.
Just reducing the attack of cavalry to 5 is a much larger change than the 2 unit option.
Unless we find that the AI really doesn't handle the zero-cost upgrade as well as it ought, I'd definately be in favour of the extra units.
Any changes to cavalry should take into account the C3C changes to Armies, given that you are also likely to be building the Military Academy, as they make Armies significantly stronger with bonuses to stats, extra movement and free pillaging
Therefore if cavalry are too strong, cavalry armies will be totally over top
Taking the cavalry movement down to 2 would seem OK ( as it can go back up when you put an Army together), leaving the 3 movement for UU's only
"An Outside Context Problem was the sort of thing most civilisations encountered just once, and which they tended to encounter rather in the same way a sentence encountered a full stop" - Excession
I agree that 3 move units are a lot of fun. The AI uses them pretty well which keeps me honest with defenders especially when other countries are sending troops through my terrority.Originally posted by nbarclay
Reduce the movement rate and I probably won't play with the AU Mod. Fighting with 3-move units is too much fun.
I just thought of a problem with having only a 5.3.3 version of cavalry. With the French musketeer now having a defense value of 5, cavalry will have as much trouble against those guys as they do against riflemen under normal rules. That will be annoying, to put it mildly when the French, happen to be in the way.
As for the point about the French it should be tough to make progress against the French during what is probably their Golden Age!!!! That is a feature not a bug.
Two things re theis most excellent thread:
* The AU Mod should NEVER require the installation of anything! Just download a 4000BC save and let'er rip. I feel very very strongly about this.
* I think we should start slow and simple... reduce Cavs to 5.3.3 and see how it goes.
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.
Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
5 attack also happens to be the value of Crusaders, which, when I've gotten them, tend to be quite successful against pikes, a mildly useful against Musketmen. So, basically, 5.3.3 cavs may work out, but it will need to be tested, as Theseus says.
Just to be clear: Are you also for taking 1 attack point away from Cossack and Siphai, Theseus?Originally posted by Theseus
I think we should start slow and simple... reduce Cavs to 5.3.3 and see how it goes.
"As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW
Yes.
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.
Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Good idea Theseus. Better to start simple and build on/remove the idea as necessary than to over-complicate things from the get go.
"Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
"I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
"Stuie is right...." - Guynemer
So broad agreement is drop Cav to 5.3.3, and not yet bother with any "Trained Cavalry", or any such things?
I like that idea, THeseus.
Especially in light of some of the other threads, i.e. de-emphasizing the Nationalism->Communism line for the AI.
Little tiny pieces often cause surprising behavior to emerge.
"Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos
well, the new patch changes _everything_!
a fortified musketman in a size 7-12 grassland town (4*(1+.1+.25+.5) = 7.4 defence) now has a clear advantage. in a city (4*(1+.1+.25) = 5.4) a more or less equal chance. cavarly won't have any chance against riflemen.
therefor i think a 6,3,3 are good stats.
with these changes, let's rediscuss everything from the beginning...
- Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity
- Atheism is a nonprophet organization.
It's true! Veteran Cavalry after the patch will have just a 25% chance to defeat a Veteran Musket fortified in a grassland city, down from 39%.
And against Riflemen, forget it: down to 3% from 20%.
This is not necessarily a good thing for balance though, as Cavalry now defeats a fortified Veteran pikeman 90% of the time, up from 70%, and the AI has usually has mostly pikemen to offer against the human.
Put a different way, Cavalry versus fortified Spearmen are now more effective than Tanks versus fortified Spearmen used to be...
Nevertheless, this discussion was excellent.Originally posted by sabrewolf
well, the new patch changes _everything_!
( ... waiting for the beta patch to try out 6.3.3 Cavalry vs. Musketmen ... )
"As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW
And don't forget to look at what a Cavalry Army can do (extra attack, movement, pillaging etc)
"An Outside Context Problem was the sort of thing most civilisations encountered just once, and which they tended to encounter rather in the same way a sentence encountered a full stop" - Excession
oh, yeah... that makes armies even less beatable... even less HP losses in every battle. wow
- Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity
- Atheism is a nonprophet organization.
alexman, now that the combat changes have been cut from the beta patch, you might as well start a poll about taking 1 attack point away from Cavalry, Cossack, Siphai.
"As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW
Any panel member should feel free to set up a poll after the discussion is done, but here it goes anyway:
AU mod panel: You have 24 hours to vote on the following:
- Yes/No: Reduce attack factor of Cavalry, Cossack, and Sipahi by 1?
- Yes/No: If 1. results in a "Yes", reduce attack factor of Sipahi by an extra 1, and its cost by 10 shields?
- Yes/No: If 1. results in a "Yes", add new Cavalry upgrade units to Nationalism, with identical stats as current Cavalry, Cossack, Sipahi?
- Yes/No: If 3. results in a "Yes", increase cost of Nationalism Cavalry units by 10 shields.
- Yes/No: If 3. results in a "Yes", use unique graphics for the Cavalry units at Military Tradition. This means maintaining a separate, second version of the AU mod with no extra graphics but identical game play.
More decisions to follow, concerning graphics, if the result of item 5. is "Yes".
My votes:
1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes
4.No
5.Yes
1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes
4.No
5.Yes
1. Yes.
2. No.
3. No.
4. No.
5. No.
How about we keep it simple for now (i.e. reduce Cavalry Attack to 5, and see how that goes)?
And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...
1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. No
Even though I've been playing with the upgrade at Nationalism in my own mod, I tend to agree with Theseus and Dominae that a more conservative approach is best for the AU Mod. Thus, I'd like to try just the reduction in Cavalry/UU strength, and reevaluate a possible upgrade at Nationalism at a later date.
"Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
"I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
"Stuie is right...." - Guynemer
1. Yes.
2. No.
3. No.
4. No.
5. No.
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.
Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
1: YES
2: NO
3: NO
4: YES
5: YES
Regarding '3': A Light Cavalry - Cavalry upgrade should be reconsidered at a later date. I'm all against a 'Light Cavalry / Light Siphai' approach because this means creating a second UU for two civs.
Regarding '5': I'm only for distinct graphics for the Light Cavalry, because that's the only new unit I'd possibly want to include.
"As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW
I strongly agree with a simple reduction to 5-3-3. However, a cost reduction of ten could be in order.
"You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran
Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005
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