EU's "Exit from History" - a new meaning to the term "Old Europe"

[Shi Huangdi]

Europe is now seeing the conseuquence of it's abandoning it's Christian Roots. As Europe abandons the religiion that defined it for centuries, so too dies it's accompanying values. The old Christian values cherishing the family fades, it is repleased with an atheistic materialism where everything becomes centered on getting the most for themselves. Why have a child if it is such a painful economic cost? Thus Europe indeeds exits from history, unless it is to re-emerge under the leadership of groups which immigrate to Europe and eventually take over with their culture.

[Kuciwalker]

Cloning.

[chequita guevara]

It had to happen eventually. The world can only support a finite amount of people.

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by Geronimo
I have to confess that I'm experiencing a bit of schadenfreude at the prospect that the ancestral and cultural homelands of the ethnic groups that have displaced and even erased so many indigenous peoples throughout the world will in turn themselves be peacefully displaced and erased by foreign ethnic groups in combination with a windfall of amazingly low native birthrates. It seems both refreshingly karmic and also mercifully benign for not producing any victims in the process except for the cultures themselves. This trend manages to accomplish this while sparing the by and large innocent living individuals who make up those soon to be marginalized cultures from the kind of ethnic cleasing that their ancestors took part in. Maybe there really is a God?


Peaceful victimless payback

True. It would be fitting justice for Europe to be envoleped and consumed by the cultures they had tried to master for so long.

[Kuciwalker]

Even more fit that their attempted mastery resulted in that justice...

[Dauphin]

Trolling over imploding populations is so stupid its funny.

[Gangerolf]

Some of these figures are ridiculous.

[Gangerolf]

What if we let in all poor Americans who wants to come. Surely they'd be better off in Europe, and they'd assimilate much faster than people from the third world

[Saras]

We need a summer of love

[BeBMan]

Oh the end is near *panics*

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Europe is now seeing the conseuquence of it's abandoning it's Christian Roots. As Europe abandons the religiion that defined it for centuries, so too dies it's accompanying values. The old Christian values cherishing the family fades, it is repleased with an atheistic materialism where everything becomes centered on getting the most for themselves.

False.

Spain and Italy are among the countries of the EU where religions is best established, and they are among the deepest in demographic crisis. France is probably the least devout nation of the EU (at least among pre-2004 members), and is IIRC the European country that suffers the least from the nataility crisis.

In all of Europe, we live in societies where it is accepted to have sex for other purposes than reproduction. Religion or not. Thus, the religious people who have many kids because their religion bans them from using contraceptive or abortions become a . I'm sure it is the same with Americans who are born in the US.

Why have a child if it is such a painful economic cost?

This is a real point. The economic cost of a child in European societies is outrageous. In France, the supply of kindergarten (I mean the place where you put your 0-3 years old) answers to 20%-30% of the demand. Women will almost always see their carreer advancement considerably delayed if they decide to have a kid, or will get thinly veiled threats in that regard.

In West Germany, the problem is far worse, as their love for the traditional position of the woman at home means they have basically no kindergarten (0-3 y.o.) to speak of. There is also very little professional protection for a woman who wants to have a kid. Curiously enough, the Germans are much more fond of the idea of the Housewife 100% devoted to her family than the French. Yet, Frau Housewife manages a family of 1 or 2 kids.

Thus Europe indeeds exits from history, unless it is to re-emerge under the leadership of groups which immigrate to Europe and eventually take over with their culture.

It is wrong to be deterministic in such a fashion.
1: the "decline of Europe" is a recurring thema since the late 19th century, when the upstart US and Japan showed they were progressing rapidly. It's pretty normal Europe would stop being the center of the world anymore, after spreading our worldview to the whole world for 4 centuries.

The real decline we brought it on ourselves with WW1 and WW2. Europe was a ruinefield, something that was less inviting than many South American countries that looked so promising in comparison back then. We were the toy of American and Soviet influences.
Yet we rebuilt. After decades of fearing our lack of natality, we had the baby-boom. We rebuilt our economies very quickly. We rebuilt politically and started creating European institutions.

And from a has-been ruinefield 60 years ago, we have become a huge economic power, dealing in equals with the US on commercial matters, and whose money ambitions to become a competitor to the dollar. After China, we are the most likely Great Power of the next century.

When we'll die of old age, we'll see if Europe exited from history. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But I don't believe Europe will simply fade out of history. By the time of my death of old age, I actually expect Europe to be one of the Great Powers in an international system that has 3 or 4, and several significant minor Powers that won't be able to be pushed around.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
deal with it

Sissy Europeans not being able to deal with other cultures

Our integration models are very different from yours you know.

That, and the fact that WE actually have old cultures set in history

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BeBro
Oh the end is near *panics*

The right reaction would be: "Oh the end is near *reproduces*"

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Spiffor
France is probably the least devout nation of the EU (at least among pre-2004 members), and is IIRC the European country that suffers the least from the nataility crisis.

The Irish breed like rabbits.

[CerberusIV]

So europe's population will decline. So what?

Less people means less pressure to develop land = better environment. People will have to work longer and probably never totally retire.

Healthwise it depends on medical progress. Need a new heart? Within a couple of decades you can probably have a brand new heart, cloned from one of your own cells, transplanted in to replace the old one. Degenerative brain disease? There will probably be a cure through stem cells. (Bush and chums may want a global ban on cloning and stem cell research but europe has too much to lose to ever agree).

I'm 43 and expect to live as long again, barring accidents. I know I'll almost certainly have to still be working part time into my 70's, both for the money and to keep my mind and body active. I really don't see a problem here.