On the subject of scenarios

[Gary Thomas]

It seems to be a good idea to have just one panel for each area - if the model gets changed, then only one part of the program needs modification, both for Clash and the editor.

Cheers

[LDiCesare]

I'm not sure many informations which should be available to the player are the same as those in the xml files. For instance, a military element will have a few values that are the result of the model vlaues (base attack, attack bonus per tech level) and the tech level, which is variable and not needed in the scenario editor when designing a new unit. A player would probably want to see the final attack value an element has in order to know which one to build, while this info is rather meaningless in the scenario editor (ok it may be useful for starting units, but is meaningless for units which won't be available before a long while).
So if you want to make them in-game panels too, you'll have to add more data, in addition to preventing people from editing the values.

[Gary Thomas]

The display screens will have to have different incarnations anyway, for example when the object being queried belongs to the player, a different set of data will be displayed than if the object belongs to another civilization. So this is no impediment to the notion I had. Each screen will have to have a number of different actual presentations.

The reasons for my appraoch are:

• It allows a uniform approach - users only have to learn one standard.
• All presentations, for a particular context, are found in a single place - this makes it easier for coders.
• It provides a process whereby every object has its corresponding presentation or editing panel.

Of course I don't imagine that we have a one size fits all situation - there will be exceptions.

On the other hand any simplifying move has to be a good thing.

Cheers

[alms66]

Originally posted by Gary Thomas
The scenario editor progresses apace. There is a very good chance that it will be finished by the end of this decade...

I was just curious as to the state of the editor. Namely, is the map editing (as for laying tiles at least) code and the scenario saving (that is, saves the scenario/map in a clash usable format) completed?

I'd be willing to do some scenario creation for the team as long as I don't have to write the 2d arrays using characters.... though I guess for a small map it would be ok, but what I'd really like to do is a full Earth Map, which I think alot of people have come in and asked about. It's the next logical step, to me at least, that is, to get a full world map going, especially since it appears Laurent has nearly got the gov't, riot and social stuff ready. With that in place, we can begin to see how different civs might appear in different locales of the world.

If it seems like a good idea to everyone, I can begin designing that. Or if someone has a better idea, speak up. Whatever needs to be done on this front, let me know. I'm in.

[alms66]

After making the above post I ended up re-reading the tech model and ultimately decided that would be the best place to start for the world scenario. So I set about to create a list of Level 1 techs, including those in the model. After what seemed like hours, of rearranging the techs in all manner of configurations, dropping here and adding there, I decided that perhaps top-down was not the best way to approach this. These level one techs are just too broad and too arbitrary to be of any real value, to me at least, in building the tech tree. So I’m going to tackle it with a bottom-up approach. I’m going to build a list of every invention, idea, thing and “science” that was used in ancient times (up until about 1 AD). This way, even if it is decided that a world scenario isn’t the best option right now, the list will still be available.

[Mark_Everson]

That sounds like a great plan alms. I'll get you the latest testbed sometime today so you can start making mods when you think you're ready. Best to keep your tech tree completely separate from the old one for the time being. You'll be able to do that with the testbed.

[Gary Thomas]

The first version of the scenario editor does not include the map editor. However, because of the way it works, adding the map editor will be merely a matter of adding the (unfortunately tedious) code. The window for the map being edited will look just like the one in the game itself.

Cheers

[Gary Thomas]

I have also given some thought to linked scenarios, that is, campaigns.

Because saved games are now indistinguishable from scenarios, all a campaign system needs is a specification of the connections between two scenarios and a way of reading the previous scenario, retaining the relevant part, and incorporating it into the new scenario. As far as coding is concerned, this is no big deal.

Anyone think that this is a GOOD THING?

Cheers

[Gary Thomas]

The bulk of the data for a saved game is the per square economic data. Most of this stuff has no impact on the game, but is space hungry. I may need to code it in some way, which will make the xml file less readable. This will involve grouping similar squares.

Polygons, anyone?

Cheers

[Mark_Everson]

Yep, polygons that are significantly bigger than squares on average are the way to go long-term IMO. However, shorter-term than polygons, I'm not sure what you're going to do. I'm looking forward to seeing it! Perhaps just keeping the maps small until polygons would be workable? I don't want to make you kludge together too much just as an interim fix.

I have to comment that this is pretty close to the issue I've always been raising about why continous save files with just the turn-to-turn changes recorded would be unfeasible. The Econ stuff is huge and it changes, admittedly always not by significant amounts, ever turn. Looking forward to that solution also.

[Gary Thomas]

I am not concerned about the size of the saved files. I am concerned that around 99% of the save file will be repetitive square economy data, which will make the files hard to read. What I had in mind was to scan all the squares and group ones with identical data. I rather feel that this will considerably reduce the amount of text. Personally I have never understood what having separate square economies adds to the game, since they are aggregated into provinces anyway.

Cheers

[Gary Thomas]

Are there no comments on the wildly exciting prospect of campaigns?

Cheers

[alms66]

Personally, I find it reeks of RTS games, which I despise, so I'm not all that excited about it, sorry.

[Mark_Everson]

I think campaigns are somewhat interesting, but there are many things higher in importance to me personally.

[LDiCesare]

The only good thing I'd see in campaigns is if you can keep your units, techs, etc. from one scenario to the next. Otherwies I think it's mostly crap. A good example of such a scenario was Civ2's Spartacus scenario, where you changed the files defining units and events from time to time. It was a bit painful to have to save, switch text files and run civ again, but it was good. I'd like to have something where you have a map that grows as the game progresses (i.e. you start in Greece, then get a map of the Mediterranean, then Europe/Eastern Asia up to India/Northern Africa, then the whole world), maybe grouping squares together as upi grow the map (actually Greece would shrink from a 50 square area in teh beginning to a 4 square area in the end game, but retain population, units, etc.). If you can get something like that, then I'll be very excited about it.