AHL- Apolyton Hockey League 09/10 (II): We're very perverse

[Flubber]

Atlanta can give two ****s about the current contract situation. They want players for Kovalchuk. They want prospects. This is their one chance at building a solid squad. They blow this by wasting Kovalchuk on an overrated turd like Phaneuf, they are done.

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BK-- the fact Atlanta wants all that is irrelevant. If they do not have him under contract for more than this year then he is simply a rental-- He might be worth a pick as a rental but there is no way in hell they get multiple roster players. Almost by definition, the teams in the market for a rental player will not typically give up any key roster players

[Flubber]

Moving one of the Top 4 D-men is the obvious solution. Too much invested on D, not enough on O.

It's not going to be Regehr (too old, too reliable defensively), it's not going to be J-Bo (too new), and Sarich isn't going to get us a top-line forward.

Wouldn't be surprised to see Phaneuf traded for a top-line talent. Kovalchuk, for instance.

Sutter is making a big show of denying that he would want to trade Phaneuf and there is a belief Sutter remains quite high on Phaneuf's talent and upside-- he is still pretty young and d-men often get better over time

Generally I have come to be in favour of trading away a d-man-- largely because the depth is there-- Pardy has shown he can absorb top-4 type minutes and both Knonwall and Johnson are fine in top6 roles. Also the Flames need SOMETHING to kickstart their offense

BUt who to trade

J-Bo-- is brand new and very good despite his disappointing offensive numbers

Regehr-- probably my choice-- He still has a reputation as a shut-down guy although he seems to have lost a step

Phaneuf? the most rumored but I don't know that it makes sense. Many people think he is "not worth the salary" etc etc but this probably means limited trade value

Sarich-- injured a bit but when in the lineup he has been a very good shutdown guy

Giordano? Cheap and in many ways the Flames BEST d-man over the last 20 games-- Losing him doesn't clear much salary though

There are so many competing thoughts that I really have no idea what might happen-- all I can say is if the Flames lose much more I would expect Darryl to do SOMETHING

[Ben Kenobi]

BK-- the fact Atlanta wants all that is irrelevant. If they do not have him under contract for more than this year then he is simply a rental-- He might be worth a pick as a rental but there is no way in hell they get multiple roster players. Almost by definition, the teams in the market for a rental player will not typically give up any key roster players

I don't think Kovalchuk is the typical situation. The only comparable situation I can think of is the Thornton deal or the Bure deal, where you have a young superstar in his prime become available. Whatever happens is going to be a blockbuster.

[Ben Kenobi]

Schneider and Bieksa are prospects. Right. Holy ****.

WTF?

How do you possible parse that from what I said? Dipping into their prospects, I named two people who could be traded who aren't prospects, and then the two unnamed prospects. But if it makes you feel better...

[Asher]

By the way, Ben:

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/bob_mckenzie/?id=307228

MCKENZIE: FLAMES, HAWKS COULD ACTIVELY PURSUE KOVALCHUK

There is no question in my mind that the Atlanta Thrashers are going to trade Ilya Kovalchuk and I believe that the sweepstakes for the star sniper is unofficially on.

That being said, Thrashers' general manager Don Waddell is not in a position that he can go out and make a deal for future considerations such as the Toronto Maple Leafs pick that belongs to the Boston Bruins.

He will not be able to go back and sell that idea to his market right now. He won't be able to sell the idea of a bunch of kids from the Los Angeles Kings like Thomas Hickey and Colten Teubert as the return that he gets on Kovalchuk. If he is going to make a move, it is going to have to be for bigger name players.

The Calgary Flames are a team that may, and I stress MAY, be interested. However if they are, they're going to have to talk about some of the 'big boys' - like Dion Phaneuf amongst others - to be included.

If it's not Phaneuf then there is a good chance that the Chicago Blackhawks will be interested. I'm not saying that talks have been made, but I am saying that guys like Patrick Sharp or Cam Barker or David Bolland will be in the mix. Legitimate, bonafide NHL players are what Waddell is looking for in return and he is looking for a couple of them.

I think that at the end of the day, both Chicago and Calgary will be in that group to pursue Kovalchuk and pursue him hard.

[Flubber]

I don't think Kovalchuk is the typical situation. The only comparable situation I can think of is the Thornton deal or the Bure deal, where you have a young superstar in his prime become available. Whatever happens is going to be a blockbuster.

huh-- Thornton had 2.75 years left under contract when his deal was done. Unless Atlanta gets a deal done, they have months only left-- It changes the value remarkeably

Bure also had about 3 years left under contract at trade time. The Kovalchuk situation is set out below

Flames, Others, Turn Away From Kovalchuk Price Tag
Monday, January 25, 2010
Posted By Ben Valentine 3:00 PM
For months we've heard about whether or not Ilya Kovalchuk would find himself playing someplace other than Atlanta this spring. The star winger is hitting unrestricted free agency this summer and there has not been a great deal of progress in extension talks with the Thrashers. That would make you think the Thrashers will eventually trade Kovalchuk somewhere; after all, a contender would love to add a star of his caliber for a Stanley Cup run and Atlanta would hate to lose him for nothing.

Yet there do not seem to be many takers, at least if we are to believe NHL general managers.

Flames GM Daryl Sutter is the most recent to say he doesn't see a place for Kovalchuk on his squad. The struggling Flames could certainly use the boost Kovalchuk would provide. However, he doesn't seem to want to surrender the pieces necessary for a player that will be difficult to resign.

Kovalchuk is reportedly demanding $11 million; an astronomical figure given the NHL's salary cap. This year is no walk in the park either, at $6.4 million, but if that's what he wanted for an extension, a team would find a way. However, prospects, clearing out a ton of space and paying that huge contract in the offseason? It's a hard sell for a lot of GMs.

Take Sutter for example. In a quote from a story in the Calgary Sun, Sutter said:

"When you have a $7-million player (Jarome Iginla), you aren't going to be able to have a $10-million player, too."

It becomes a tough decision; most teams who are in contention simply cannot afford a player making that much without some serious reshuffling. The Flames probably could make a move this year if they found a taker for Dion Phaneuf or the disappointing Olli Jokinen. But doing that would only get Kovalchuk on their squad for this year; come the summer, that contract is still going to be an issue. With Rene Bourque also up at the end of the the year, Calgary would have to say goodbye to one of the two. So that would mean to get Kovalchuk and lock him up, they would need to part with two of their key players and the prospects necessary to get a deal done.
You can hardly blame Sutter for thinking it doesn't make much sense at this time, even if his team desperately needs another scorer.

You also have to wonder who it does make sense for. Sutter is quoted in the article as saying the Flames are 17th in payroll and 22 teams are over $55 million in league that has a $56.8 million dollar cap. You can do somethings to clear money for a rent a player. But good luck clearing out enough for an extension too.

One wonders how this will play out. If Kovalchuk has scared off so many teams, does the market get so barren his rental price becomes too good to pass up? Or does some team convince itself that a Cup this year is worth it and adds one of the games' more dynamic players. Could we see a dark horse swoop in with the intent on making Kovalchuk the center of their franchise? Or heck, do the Thrashers decide they're better off keeping Kovalchuk and hoping for the best, which would include a playoff trip come the spring and then him re-signing in the summer. They are just three points out of the three way tie for the six through eight spots right now.

This year's trade deadline will certainly have a lot of intrigue. It begins in Atlanta and its face of the franchise, where just about anything can happen.

[Ben Kenobi]

like Dion Phaneuf amongst others

Phaneuf plus a combo of picks or prospects.

I wouldn't say Calgary is a good choice because of their poor cap management. They have no room for a Kovalchuk, not unless they dump Jokinen. It would be a great trade for them if they can pull the trigger, dump Phaneuf and Jokinen, and then go from there.

[Asher]

Phaneuf plus a combo of picks or prospects.

I wouldn't say Calgary is a good choice because of their poor cap management. They have no room for a Kovalchuk, not unless they dump Jokinen. It would be a great trade for them if they can pull the trigger, dump Phaneuf and Jokinen, and then go from there.

You ****ing mental midget.

Vancouver has no room for "a Kovalchuk" either. They have precisely $0.239M in cap space free.

Calgary has $1.267M in cap space free.

Your earlier proposal of getting rid of Schneider + Bieksa would give you only $3.75M of cap space back (since Schneider is not playing on the big team, there's no cap hit). That'd give the Canucks $3.98M in cap space.

Kovalchuk's cap hit is $6.4M.

If the Flames traded Phaneuf, they'd have $7.67M in cap space (Phaneuf is @ $6.5M cap hit, $100K higher than Kovalchuk).

This is why you are widely regarded as the dumbest hockey fan on this forum, by the way. Complete failure to understand the basics.

[Flubber]

Phaneuf plus a combo of picks or prospects.

I wouldn't say Calgary is a good choice because of their poor cap management. .

hmmm-- since Calgary is 17th in salary who exactly was good at cap management? Almost everyone is pushing the limit and the Flames at least are not in a position of having to completely dismantle their team next year-- although to re-sign Bourque they may need to let Jokkinen go or see his salary go down

[Flubber]

wow-- Flame suckage continues-- I expected some difficulty to score but this is obscene

Flames play the Oil Saturday so at least we know an Albertan team will get two points that night

[Ben Kenobi]

The Jokinen trade has been disastrous for them.

[Ben Kenobi]

This is why you are widely regarded as the dumbest hockey fan on this forum, by the way. Complete failure to understand the basics.\

You think I want Kovalchuk? I'm well aware that they'd be over the cap.

[Asher]

You think I want Kovalchuk? I'm well aware that they'd be over the cap.

Don't move the goalposts, Ben. I'm sick of people doing that.

You made a post where you demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge about hockey. Namely, you chastized Calgary for its cap management even though it has 5x the cap space of the Canucks. Earlier you were speculating on what it'd take to land Kovalchuk on the Canucks, even though your suggested players to trade wouldn't get near the amount of cap space freed up for it.

Again, you were simply clueless.

[Ben Kenobi]

You made a post where you demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge about hockey. Namely, you chastized Calgary for its cap management even though it has 5x the cap space of the Canucks.

Yeah, Calgary nearly forfeited because of their cap management last year. I still think they (and the Canucks) are far too close to the cap.

Nowhere have I suggested that Vancouver is a likely destination, I simply threw out a Canuck offer, as one that has been suggested for Kovalchuk. Again, for many reasons, that deal isn't going to happen, but it gives you a better idea of Kovalchuk's value, in that it's not a straight up trade for Bieksa.

Earlier you were speculating on what it'd take to land Kovalchuk on the Canucks, even though your suggested players to trade wouldn't get near the amount of cap space freed up for it.

As you say here, it's mere speculation intended to get a better idea of what Kovalchuk is worth.

[Asher]

Yeah, Calgary nearly forfeited because of their cap management last year.

Nowhere have I suggested that Vancouver is a likely destination, I simply threw out a Canuck offer, as one that has been suggested for Kovalchuk.

One that is nowhere near practical or even technically possible. You threw the trade out there to combat what you saw as a ridiculous proposed trade -- one that hockey insiders have considered possible and is absolutely technically feasible. Your trade was completely nonsensical (why would Atlanta trade for a 40-year old player who burned his bridges with a temper tantrum in Vancouver and Kevin ****ing Bieksa?).

Again, for many reasons, that deal isn't going to happen, but it gives you a better idea of Kovalchuk's value, in that it's not a straight up trade for Bieksa.

Dion Phaneuf has far more value than Schneider + Bieksa + couple minor league players. You are ****ing insane.