Putin ally and Wagner founder admitting US election interference

[Elok]

@JM you will not hear me praise the sanity, moderation, restraint, or ... basically anything else about the post-Trump GOP, but that's beside the point. I am specifically addressing this idea that, in the neverending froth of angry opinions that is the American political internet, with hundreds, thousands, or even millions of people continuously shouting at each other around the clock, disproportionate influence is exerted by a minuscule pack of paid actors who speak English as a second language and have in all likelihood never set foot in this country. How the hell did these Slavs get such incredible powers of suggestion, and why don't professional American PR flacks figure out the same trick(s) and drown them out?

[Berzerker]

nm...

[BeBMan]

Yes. (...).

Not convincing at all to shrug off impact of Russian disinfo on the grounds that they were foreigners and quasi-newcomers.

Because the former would not be obvious initially, and the latter they were certainly not - Russian/Soviet intel services are in this business for ages.

Saying that there are other sides in the US doing more or less the same with varying degrees of success is even less of an argument. It just shows that crazy stuff works with certain folks.

[Elok]

You misunderstand. Being foreign is a disadvantage not because they'll be "caught," but because they are cultural aliens. They will have a limited supply of truly fluent English speakers (and writers), and those they do have are still ultimately Russian. Alex Jones is good at influencing a certain kind of American because he is that certain kind of American. He is steeped in the culture and understands how we think. To pick a crude example, how good do you suppose Serb would be at pretending to be an American, or attempting to persuade Americans under that guise? How good would I be, assuming I learned German, at influencing Germans?

Also I really don't think they're taking experienced intelligence personnel and assigning them to rabblerouse on the internet. I don't believe Russian intelligence would even have particular experience in anything analogous. You use spies to steal military and state secrets, to sabotage, or on occasion (stretching the definition of "spy" here) to do wet work. Starting ugly rumors, especially in a population that already starts plenty of ugly rumors by itself, would be a ridiculous waste of manpower.

[BeBMan]

Maybe they became aware of the cultural gap and hired Tucker Carlson a while ago, I've read he's happily spending some of his precious TV time for a nice selection of Kremlin talking points

[Elok]

I had totally forgotten Tucker Carlson was even a thing; I lose track of individuals in the swarm of nimrod gadflies. IIRC he was getting quoted heavily by the Kremlin around the time of the invasion, but I more or less tuned out the whole business once it got to the expected godawful quagmire stage. Discreetly channeling money to people like Tucker would not be nearly as terrible a waste of time as some things you could name, but still not likely to achieve any particular objective. Also, it seems probable that he would have been nearly as useful--to the extent he's useful at all--to Russian interests without such help.

[Berzerker]

@JM you will not hear me praise the sanity, moderation, restraint, or ... basically anything else about the post-Trump GOP, but that's beside the point. I am specifically addressing this idea that, in the neverending froth of angry opinions that is the American political internet, with hundreds, thousands, or even millions of people continuously shouting at each other around the clock, disproportionate influence is exerted by a minuscule pack of paid actors who speak English as a second language and have in all likelihood never set foot in this country. How the hell did these Slavs get such incredible powers of suggestion, and why don't professional American PR flacks figure out the same trick(s) and drown them out?

How did they get such power? The US government has been arming them for close to 9 years now provoking a Russian war in Ukraine so those professional PR firms are probably writing their narrative. I'll raise your Ghost of Kiev with the Heroes of Snake Island. The people paying no attention to the current war are better informed than the people watching intently.

[Elok]

They spent that money to convince people like Berz? How can you tell? He believes, uh, eccentric things that are totally unrelated to Russia, and has for a very long time.

[BeBMan]

I don't know if they spent money "to convince" Berz. I do know that he repeatedly posted stuff that reflects the Kremlin line exactly in this forum.

[Berzerker]

American news stories about the Nazi influence in Ukraine date back a few years

and if you look for it, you can find video showing just how popular the Nazi salute is in Ukraine, even little children hailing cabs as soldiers drive by.

[Berzerker]

I dont think Tucker needs Kremlin $$$, but Fox had a problem - the rest of the network was pushing for the current war and Tucker was trying to prevent it. Tucker was asked why he doesn't have to follow the herd at Fox and he said his advertisers mostly left him but his ratings are very high and at least one of the owners of Fox supports him.

Here's an example, Tucker keeps inviting Col Douglas MacGregor on for strategic analysis but he appeared in a segment on another Fox show with Trey Gowdy, after the interview Gowdy and a couple other Fox regulars trashed MacGregor, not with any substance or facts. It was quite a display of neocon outrage and shock, Gowdy seemed genuinely surprised his guest didn't toe the party line. But instead of debating the issue he waited for the guy to be gone and started insulting him.

[PLATO]

the rest of the network was pushing for the current war and Tucker was trying to prevent it.

I had no idea that FOX and Tucker were so well connected to the Kremlin that they could attempt to sway policy. Putin is a land grabbing megalomaniac and there was no stopping this war. The only choices were to support Ukraine or support the destruction of a world order that has mainly held the peace for 70 years.

[Berzerker]

Trump stopped it

[Jon Miller]

Previously people who believed in eccentric things were all over the map in what eccentric things they beleived. Even if they overall were/identified as liberal, centrist or conservative.

The last few years, these believers of eccentric things have started to move in mostly the same direction on things (even in areas where they hadn't had eccentric beliefs in before), and often times those things have appeared to align with Russian disinformation efforts.

JM

[Berzerker]

what Russian disinformation?

[pchang]

Just pretty much everything you have posted in the last couple of years.

[Berzerker]

Just pretty much everything you have posted in the last couple of years.

Two years ago western media was publishing articles about the influence of Ukrainian Nazis and their war in the Donbas

[Dauphin]

Not sure what your point is there. Western media also talked about proud boys and far right extremism in the United States, and how Trump would not disown them. I mention that because reading between the lines you seem to imply that the media think Ukraine had a Nazi in power problem because they talked about political extremism being present in a country..

[PLATO]

Where isn't political extremism present today?