Germany never changes... German leader says multiculturalism has failed.

[Kitschum]

More interesting charts. I hope I'm not boring you. At a glance one of the best correlations with thinking immigration is not a problem seems to be confidence in how the government manages it.

The most anomalous are Germany which appears to displays a somewhat "excessive" trust in government, contra Italy and the United States which are slightly more distrustful than might be predicted from their attitudes to immigration.

[rah]

I don't see the direct correlation here.
Wanting to control immigration and tolerance are two difference things.

[Jon Miller]

Yeah, I am very pro immigration, but still want immigrant to be controlled.

JM

[MikeH]

I didn't say we have more immigrants, I just say we get loads travelling across the length of Europe just to get to the UK. To defeat me, you have to prove that our welfare system is not more generous than the likes of Greece and Spain, and that people aren't expressly travelling across Europe for that reason, for example.

Plus we also need to properly define what an immigrant is. As OFinG alluded to, a large proportion of the Spanish immigrants are probably northern European sunseekers and I would guess it's a similar case in Greece too. I'm talking about economic migrants posing as asylum seekers coming to our country to leach off our already too generous welfare system...

It's incredibly hard to get into the UK as an economic migrant posing as an asylum seeker. They do not receive a lot of money. They get £19 a week in food vouchers and £10 a week cash. They cannot supplement this income as they are not allowed to work. If they fail in their application they are then dumped in a detention centre indefinitely awaiting deportation. It might be worse in other countries, but it's no picnic here that's for sure. The idea that they are swanning around wafting themselves with their benefits millions is bizarre.

It's certainly not attractive in any way.

How many land in Greece or Spain and travel to Germany or France? Or are processed by the home nation? I'd like to see some figures other than this vague notion you have that we're disproportionately taking more people. Do you think any country without a border to somewhere outside the EU shouldn't take any asylum seekers because they don't arrive on their soil?

Anyway. Again surprised at your Tory attitude, thought you were a Lib Dem.

[Kitschum]

I don't see the direct correlation here.
Wanting to control immigration and tolerance are two difference things.

Assuming you're referring to my last post: The correlation is pretty good between thinking immigration is more a problem than an opportunity, and being dissatisfied with the government's management of immigration.

That is a better correlation than with the percentage of immigrants (foreign-born) in the population, or thinking immigrants increase crime, or thinking immigrants terkerjerbs, to take other common issues.

[Jon Miller]

My main problem is when immigration takes away the human capital of the 'birth nation', which slows down that nations development. Yeah, often they send money/gifts home which spurs cash flow. But they don't form companies, raise children, or invest as much as they would (percent wise) if they had stayed in that country. Besides denying their fellow's by birth the use of their abilities.

JM

[Barnabas]

Spain is full of Moroccans, Ecuatorians and Romanians, I think the brits are underating the % of third world immigrants in Spain, they are about 4 million if I recall correctly

[rah]

Assuming you're referring to my last post: The correlation is pretty good between thinking immigration is more a problem than an opportunity, and being dissatisfied with the government's management of immigration.

I still don't see the word or any connection to tolerance. I work in survey research. It's critical how you word the question asked. I'm very used to seeing clients twist the meanings to their own purpose. The original argument that I was responding to was that we couldn't really understand it because all of our immigrants were from western countries so they weren't that different. My stat just shows that we also had a good percentage of non western immigrants. Since that doesn't seem to be a problem, maybe we are more tolerant.

[MOBIUS]

It's incredibly hard to get into the UK as an economic migrant posing as an asylum seeker. They do not receive a lot of money. They get £19 a week in food vouchers and £10 a week cash. They cannot supplement this income as they are not allowed to work. If they fail in their application they are then dumped in a detention centre indefinitely awaiting deportation. It might be worse in other countries, but it's no picnic here that's for sure. The idea that they are swanning around wafting themselves with their benefits millions is bizarre.

It's certainly not attractive in any way.

How many land in Greece or Spain and travel to Germany or France? Or are processed by the home nation? I'd like to see some figures other than this vague notion you have that we're disproportionately taking more people. Do you think any country without a border to somewhere outside the EU shouldn't take any asylum seekers because they don't arrive on their soil?

Anyway. Again surprised at your Tory attitude, thought you were a Lib Dem.

Then there's the asylum seekers who come here and years later are still sponging off our benefits having made little attempt to learn English, or integrate into our society.

Obviously the government is also at fault, but then we are talking about the soft touch Labour party, after all...

I don't doubt that there is a lot of Daily Mail type media distortion about asylum seekers and economic migrants in this country, however there is also plenty of anecdotal evidence that the system isn't working properly and/or is being taken advantage of.

What we need is a properly integrated system that does take in a fair share of the people that arrive in the EU and is able to support them through the entire process of integration right through until they are able to make a valuable to the society that took them in.

[Kitschum]

I still don't see the word or any connection to tolerance. I work in survey research. It's critical how you word the question asked. I'm very used to seeing clients twist the meanings to their own purpose. The original argument that I was responding to was that we couldn't really understand it because all of our immigrants were from western countries so they weren't that different. My stat just shows that we also had a good percentage of non western immigrants.

The exact wording is available in the report but I don't feel that I have distorted it in any way. Why don't you elaborate what you mean by tolerance?

You said the US has over one million Muslims (presumably including idiosyncrasies like the Nation of Islam). The Netherlands alone has almost one million Muslims (real actual ones) and obviously much higher as a proportion of total population. This is just one point which has been brought up repeatedly in this thread and in which the US and the European experiences differ.

I myself am skeptical that their Muslimness is the key to understanding the objection but it is worth discussing.

Since that doesn't seem to be a problem, maybe we are more tolerant.

See, I take issue with this. You have absolutely failed to show that the US is more tolerant while I have given several indications to the opposite. As for your Chinatowns, they are tourist traps that exist all over the West: in the US, in Europe and Australia, where I have visited them personally. It's not really to the point however.

[rah]

You have shown nothing relating to tolerance. Just how people feel about immigration. Chinatown's attract tourists for what they are. Areas where most of the people are different and have not assimilated. Which is the point I was making. Yes it's hard to define/quantify tolerance.

[MikeH]

Then there's the asylum seekers who come here and years later are still sponging off our benefits having made little attempt to learn English, or integrate into our society.

They aren't asylum seekers then, they are people who've gained actual political asylum. Which means they are genuinely in serious danger if they are returned home, and it is not something that's easy to succeed at these days. I think the proportion of those that are non-English learning scroungers would be small. Certainly a tiny cost to the economy compared to the number of people born in the UK who are permanent dole scroungers. I wonder if there's actually any difference in people trying to play the system, wouldn't surprise me if the proportion trying to scam the system is the same regardless of origin.

And I think they are a small cost compared to deserving beneficiaries. It's impossible to police 100% accurately and a fine balance between policing fraud and cutting off benefits from the deserving.

[MikeH]

Wait... you're just trolling me right?

[Kitschum]

You have shown nothing relating to tolerance. Just how people feel about immigration. Chinatown's attract tourists for what they are. Areas where most of the people are different and have not assimilated. Which is the point I was making.

Like I said there are Chinatowns in London, Paris, Amsterdam and Sydney. It's not a US only phenomenon.

Second of all, Chinese immigration is not typical of either the US or the European experience with immigration. Agreed?

Yes it's hard to define/quantify tolerance.

Yes everything is very nebulous. Are you chickening out?

[rah]

No, I've made my point and no one has shown anything definitive to dispute it. America has experienced plenty of immigration by non western nations also so you can't say Europe is special in this regard.