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  • #16
    Dose of irony: Where did I say you said it.


    Then why did you bring it up?

    Japanese developers don't care how well it does in the Japanese market, just in their target game market. If they're going to make a game that will sell well in North America, it doesn't matter if the console doesn't exist in Japan...


    You really don't know anything about Japanese culture or the motives of Japanese game developers. They do care how well a console does in the Japanese market and they are reluctant to make games that will not sell in Japan. That is why developers like Sega and producers like Hideo Kojima are viewed as mavericks in the Japanese development community; they make games targeted solely at the Western audience. Most Japanese developers don't and frown upon such behavior.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
      Then why did you bring it up?
      Couldn't you see I was ranting?

      You really don't know anything about Japanese culture or the motives of Japanese game developers. They do care how well a console does in the Japanese market and they are reluctant to make games that will not sell in Japan. That is why developers like Sega and producers like Hideo Kojima are viewed as mavericks in the Japanese development community; they make games targeted solely at the Western audience. Most Japanese developers don't and frown upon such behavior.
      Hello?
      Tecmo and Sega have given MS fantastic support (some might say better than Nintendo and Sony) despite the Xbox tanking in Japan.

      Don't lecture me on how Japanese culture and business works, you're ignoring the real big picture.

      Most Japanese developers make crap games that VERY few people outside of Japan care for. Games like Dragon Quest would sell like crap in North America. There's the odd blockbuster like Final Fantasy but it's hardly a critical point in the market anymore.

      You're bound to bring up MGS2 -- that is not a Japanese game, despite who developed it. It's very much an American style game. Not to mention the fact that Splinter Cell is a better game in the same category, and came from Canada of all places.

      Some Japanese game companies don't care about the market outside of their own. They develop games for the Japanese market and maybe release ports of them in other languages later, but those HARDLY make up any significant portion of game sales outside of Japan. Companies like Konami are rapidly losing marketshare to companies like Rare, Rockstar, and Bungie.

      As much as Nintendo fans love to plug their ears and ignore it, the majority of the video game market is moving away from the classic Japanese style games many people loved.
      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
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      • #18
        Tecmo and Sega have given MS fantastic support (some might say better than Nintendo and Sony) despite the Xbox tanking in Japan.


        I'm well aware of Sega's support of the Xbox, but like I said, they're a maverick among Japanese game developers. And let's be honest, Sega isn't known for its wise business decisions...

        BTW, what has Tecmo put out on the Xbox lately? I don't remember anything other than Dead or Alive 3. I'm not a big Tecmo fan, so I don't follow them very closely.

        Don't lecture me on how Japanese culture and business works, you're ignoring the real big picture.


        Excuse me for thinking that Japanese culture and business practice might be relevant to a discussion of the behavior of Japanese game developers...

        Most Japanese developers make crap games that VERY few people outside of Japan care for.




        You're bound to bring up MGS2 -- that is not a Japanese game, despite who developed it.


        It is an American style game, but it was still made by a Japanese development team led by a Japanese producer working for a Japanese development house. It is a Japanese game, whether you want to admit it or not.

        As much as Nintendo fans love to plug their ears and ignore it, the majority of the video game market is moving away from the classic Japanese style games many people loved.


        You're right. No one cares about Zelda, Mario, Sonic, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, or Final Fantasy anymore. Japanese developers are irrelevant, since they don't make any good games anymore.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
          I'm well aware of Sega's support of the Xbox, but like I said, they're a maverick among Japanese game developers. And let's be honest, Sega isn't known for its wise business decisions...
          So basically one of the very largest and most influential Japanese game companies (one who used to make many successful consoles of its own, in fact) is just to be ignored when you want to try to make a point?

          And how about KOEI, what do think about them and their Xbox support?

          BTW, what has Tecmo put out on the Xbox lately? I don't remember anything other than Dead or Alive 3. I'm not a big Tecmo fan, so I don't follow them very closely.
          Fatal Frame (though not exclusive), Dead or Alive: eXtreme Beach Volleyball ( ), Ninja Gaiden (exclusive also)

          Excuse me for thinking that Japanese culture and business practice might be relevant to a discussion of the behavior of Japanese game developers...
          They are, but you don't seem to know too much about it. Many of the biggest Japanese companies are supporting a console failing in their home market. You're sitting here telling me that Japanese game makers only make games that would sell in their own country in general.

          You laugh...but have you SEEN the bestsellers list in Japan?

          From the latest list...

          1. Pocket Monsters Ruby/Saphire
          2. Rockman EX 3
          3. Shinobi
          4. Momotarou Dentetsu 11
          5. Tales of Destiny 2
          6. SD Gundam G Generation Neo
          7. Ratchet & Clank
          8. Derby Stallion Advance
          9. Dark Chronicle
          10. Mario Party 4
          11. Lupin the Third
          12. Shin Megamitensei 9
          etc

          Quite clearly, the majority of those games wouldn't move any respectable amount of copies in North America.

          It is an American style game, but it was still made by a Japanese development team led by a Japanese producer working for a Japanese development house. It is a Japanese game, whether you want to admit it or not.
          It doesn't matter if it was made in Japan, it was an American stylized game that was in fact outdone by a development house in Canada with a fraction of MGS2's budget. Yes, technically it was a Japanese game, but it was not a Japanese style game by any means.

          IIRC, MGS2 sold WAY better outside of Japan than it did inside of Japan.

          You're right. No one cares about Zelda, Mario, Sonic, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, or Final Fantasy anymore. Japanese developers are irrelevant, since they don't make any good games anymore.
          It's not that "no one cares", it's that "more people don't care".

          Look at the pathetic SMS sales. Look at the slumping Gamecube sales in general outside of Japan.

          Those style of games aren't nearly as popular as the other forms out there.

          Hell, Dead or Alive 3 has outsold Super Mario Sunshine outside of Japan.
          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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          • #20
            Many of the biggest Japanese companies are supporting a console failing in their home market.


            Two does not equal many. And Tecmo isn't giving much support, if they're only giving the Xbox three exclusives.

            You're sitting here telling me that Japanese game makers only make games that would sell in their own country in general.


            Again, no I didn't say that. I said that Japanese game makers are reluctant to support a console that flops in Japan. If they do decide to support a console, they obviously craft some games for the Japanese market and some for the American market, but the initial decision to support a console is heavily affected by the success of said console in Japan. As such, the chances of the Xbox attracting more substantial support from Japanese developers seem to be waning with the continued failure of the Xbox to break into Japan.

            2. Rockman EX 3


            Yeah, Megaman!

            Yes, technically it was a Japanese game, but it was not a Japanese style game by any means.


            Why the hell does the style of the game matter? My point has been that the Xbox needs the support of Japanese developers if they want to dethrone Sony and the Playstation. It doesn't matter whether the MGS series is an American style game; it is made by a Japanese company and will therefore not be available to Xbox owners if Konami decides it doesn't want to support the Xbox anymore. If the Xbox doesn't do well in Japan, it will attract fewer Japanese developers and will consequently have fewer Japanese made games available to its users. It's a pretty simple scenario to understand...

            Look at the pathetic SMS sales.


            I think the slow sales of SMS are due more to a lackluster game than to a sudden lack of interest in the Mario franchise. If Mario 128 flops, then maybe I'll buy your argument, but I'm just not seeing it right now. Japanese franchises are still the biggest game sellers in the world, outside of sports games.

            It's not that "no one cares", it's that "more people don't care".


            This is true, but the Japanese game developers have not been supplanted yet. They are still the most influential group of game makers in the world and no console wants to be left out in the cold by them, Xbox included.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
              Two does not equal many. And Tecmo isn't giving much support, if they're only giving the Xbox three exclusives.
              They gave Xbox its DOA and Ninja Gaiden series as exclusives.
              PS2 got "Rygar" as an exclusive.
              Gamecube got nadda.

              That's not "much support" from Tecmo?

              DOA and Ninja Gaiden are, by far, Tecmo's biggest franchises.

              Why the hell does the style of the game matter?
              What the hell does it matter the political boundaries of where the developers live when they made the game? MGS2 is an American-style game, which could have just have easily been made by a North American company.

              North American companies, try as they might, cannot really replicate with quality any "Japanese" title. They make their own style of game, a la Metroid Prime (which was developed in Texas).

              My point has been that the Xbox needs the support of Japanese developers if they want to dethrone Sony and the Playstation.
              My point is this is not necessarily the case. The blowout best sellers (and system movers) are not Japanese games for either the Xbox or the PS2. 5 years ago this was absolutely true, but now the Japanese influence is shrinking along with Japan's economy and the booming industry in North American and Europe.

              It doesn't matter whether the MGS series is an American style game; it is made by a Japanese company and will therefore not be available to Xbox owners if Konami decides it doesn't want to support the Xbox anymore. If the Xbox doesn't do well in Japan, it will attract fewer Japanese developers and will consequently have fewer Japanese made games available to its users. It's a pretty simple scenario to understand...
              It is, but it doesn't mean it's valid.
              Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance, for example. Splinter Cell is outselling it something like ten to one right now... They came out nearly on the same day. (And you do know MGS2: Substance came out first on Xbox, and will be out on PS2 in 2003 right?)

              I think the slow sales of SMS are due more to a lackluster game than to a sudden lack of interest in the Mario franchise. If Mario 128 flops, then maybe I'll buy your argument, but I'm just not seeing it right now. Japanese franchises are still the biggest game sellers in the world, outside of sports games.
              Why excluding sports games? Sports games are a HUGE segment.
              You also exclude "minor" franchises like Halo and Grand Theft Auto? Why?

              This is true, but the Japanese game developers have not been supplanted yet. They are still the most influential group of game makers in the world and no console wants to be left out in the cold by them, Xbox included.
              Most influential, yet they sell a minority of video games outside of Japan...
              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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              • #22
                What the hell does it matter the political boundaries of where the developers live when they made the game?


                It's not the political boundaries that matter; it's the cultural boundaries. The Japanese are a very insular and group-oriented society, a concept you can't seem to grasp. Japanese culture gives Sony a huge advantage over Microsoft in courting Japanese third parties and MS doesn't seem to be overcoming those difficulties.

                Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance, for example. Splinter Cell is outselling it something like ten to one right now... They came out nearly on the same day.


                You can't be serious about this. Comparing an improved port of a year-old PS2 game to a brand new game? Of course Splinter Cell is selling better; most people have already played MGS2.

                Most influential, yet they sell a minority of video games outside of Japan...


                If you want to think that MS can dethrone Sony without the support of Japanese developers, then go right ahead. You're entitled to your opinion. I think you're dead wrong, however, and am relatively sure that future events will demonstrate the wisdom of my views. MS certainly seems to think that the Japanese developers are still important, as they are pulling out all the stops to court them. I guess we'll just have to wait and see who's right...

                Good night.
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                • #23
                  MS can dethrone Sony, but they don't need the support of Japanese developers to do so.

                  The majority of games bought and sold in North America and Europe are not Japanese games. This is a statistical fact.

                  MS does have support of Japanese developers to the extent it needs to be successful in North America and Europe. The ONLY reason the PS2 is selling more right now is brand name, momentum, and because it's "the PS2". People aren't looking at them and thinking "wait -- am I going to get Japanese games on this??". They're wondering if they can play GTA3 on it, or they're getting an Xbox and wondering if they can play Halo on it.

                  All MS needs to overtake Sony is the popular games in each region. Most of the popular games outside of Japan are not, in fact, Japanese.

                  Of course Japanese developers help every bit, but I also see MS buying companies like Rare instead of buying companies like Capcom (who is reportedly up for sale) -- which tells you which MS considers more important.
                  "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                  Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                  • #24
                    MS does have support of Japanese developers to the extent it needs to be successful in North America and Europe. The ONLY reason the PS2 is selling more right now is brand name, momentum, and because it's "the PS2". People aren't looking at them and thinking "wait -- am I going to get Japanese games on this??".


                    The reason I decided to buy a PS2 over the Xbox was seeing Virtua Fighter 4 for twenty bucks at Best Buy. A Japanese game, exclusive for the PS2, that made up my undecided mind...

                    Happy New Year, everybody!!!

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                    • #25
                      I played the Zelda demo at Best Buy tonight and I was very impressed. The graphics are great and the gameplay is just as good as it's always been. I can't wait for this game!
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                      • #26


                        Oh look! Its Celda.....

                        Anyway, I've played the N64 games and they were great. What I thought was really great about them was the immersive graphics....And on an emulator their even better. See, for these type of games you gotta have ATMOSPHERE, and Celda doesn't seem like it'll be able to deliver.

                        I did think Nintendo was trying to shake the kiddy image, not embrace it. Oh well....Theyre tanking everywhere except Japan, and Japan has already proven itself to be the last of the major console markets. Though I dont like the XBOX either, I must admit I am attracted a bit to it and it does appear to be selling well here in America and in Europe.....

                        But for now, I'll stick with the best console of all: THE PC. (Windows PC, that is )
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                        • #27
                          See, for these type of games you gotta have ATMOSPHERE, and Celda doesn't seem like it'll be able to deliver.


                          Just wait till you play the game; the new graphics create more atmosphere than Ocarina of Time ever had. It's like seeing A Link to the Past in 3D and I love it...
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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
                            See, for these type of games you gotta have ATMOSPHERE, and Celda doesn't seem like it'll be able to deliver.


                            Just wait till you play the game; the new graphics create more atmosphere than Ocarina of Time ever had. It's like seeing A Link to the Past in 3D and I love it...
                            No, I want things to look REALISTIC and BEAUTIFUL, not cartoony. Not cell-shaded.
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                            • #29
                              I thought you wanted atmosphere?

                              If you want realism, then you won't like the new Zelda. If you want atmosphere, however, then you'll love the new style.
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                              • #30
                                I want complete realism.

                                Where are the bathrooms in Zelda games?
                                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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