The World Series - St Louis & Boston

[Arrian]

Aroo? If they do win 4 straight (as unlikely as that is), why not?

Well sure, but to this point they've played poorly. The baserunning last night was awful. They allowed a team that made 8 errors in the first to games to beat them in both games. Championship teams make the other team pay for that.

That is if Steinny doesn't die from a heart attack in the interm . After Steinbrenner, I don't think you have this wanton spending and the Yanks may actually become financially constrained and act like the Cubs owners (Tribune Company) or the Braves owners (AOL/Time Warner). After Steinny, who knows where it will go?

I doubt it. The Yankees make gobs and gobs of money, and so even a "financially constrained" Yankee organization is quite capable of runs like the '96 - '00 one (where they were #1/#2 in the league in payroll, but only by a little).

I think they'll definetly sign Varitek and Cabrera. They may let Pedro go and sign Pavano (who they once dealt for Pedro ).

Indeed, that sounds like a good scenario for the Sox. Signing Cabrera may not happen, though, because he's likely to want a long-term deal and IIRC the Sox have some big SS prospect waiting in the wings. So they may have trouble reconciling that. Varitek - yeah, switching hitting catchers who hit for average and power do not grow on trees. I assume you think they let Lowe walk too, or has his performance this postseason changed that? I'd still let him go.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

The Yankees make gobs and gobs of money, and so even a "financially constrained" Yankee organization is quite capable of runs like the '96 - '00 one (where they were #1/#2 in the league in payroll, but only by a little).

Payroll isn't the only expense. You know that. The Yankees spend TWICE as much than any other team on scouting, for one. That's the main reason their cupboard was so full in the mid 90s.

And think about it, the Cubs make a good profit, but the Tribune Company didn't spend that much of it until recently. Steinbrenner spends like a drunken fool.. and I'm sure the next in line will curtail some of the spending, especially on things like scouting (which always seem the first to go, stupidly).

IIRC the Sox have some big SS prospect waiting in the wings.

Problem is that Hanley Ramirez has only been to AA. I know that some prospects have totally jumped AAA, but Ramirez is also 20 years old. They can easily sign Cabrera to a long term deal and move him to 2B when the time comes.

yeah, switching hitting catchers who hit for average and power do not grow on trees.

Well not just that. Shoppach is decent with the bat and is supposed to be a top line defensive Catcher, but Varitek is the heart and soul of the Red Sox. Their captain (their Jeter if you will).

I assume you think they let Lowe walk too, or has his performance this postseason changed that? I'd still let him go.

Lowe is gone. He was pissed on how he was used at the end of the year. AND his agent has said he's the top FA pitcher out ther (YEAH RIGH! With Pedro, Radke, and Pavano out there?!)... so the Red Sox will say see ya.

[Arrian]

Problem is that Hanley Ramirez has only been to AA. I know that some prospects have totally jumped AAA, but Ramirez is also 20 years old. They can easily sign Cabrera to a long term deal and move him to 2B when the time comes.

Ah, I didn't realize he was still only 20 and in AA. The Sox could afford to give Cabrera 3-4 years, then (preferably 3 yrs w/a team option for a 4th).

Heart & Soul is fine, so long as he still performs. So far, neither he nor Posada appear to gone into the inevitable aging catcher decline phase (Posada's performance declined from last year, but last year was his career year, so that's just a regression to the mean).

Agreed on Lowe. What they're getting from him now is just gravy. I think they like what they got from Arroyo. Obviously they're counting on Shilling. If you slot Pavano in there, you've got a decent rotation (not great, but decent, and likely good enough). Be wary of Pavano, though. Not every pitcher can be like Shilling (and Pedro, for that matter) and make the National League - American League transition easily (see: Vasquez, Javier). Some NL pitchers really do need that weak spot in the lineup to be successful, and upon arrival in the AL, find themselves in a heap 'o trouble.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Steinbrenner spends like a drunken fool.. and I'm sure the next in line will curtail some of the spending, especially on things like scouting (which always seem the first to go, stupidly).

First, he doesn't. He seems to, but the man is still spending within his means.

Second, I think the Yankee organization knows full well how much advantage they get from spending so much on scouting.

You're looking at the potential downside (or upside, for Yankee haters). I prefer some optimism, and hope that new ownership would merely curtain some of the Steinbrenner insanities (KENNY LOFTON!?!? RAUL MONDESI!?!?!, etc measured against one smart theft of David Wells) while still spending enough to put a quality team on the field. I think ownership by a news network or somesuch has been pretty well discredited (see: CBS owning the Yanks, the Tribune owning the Cubs...).

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Be wary of Pavano, though. Not every pitcher can be like Shilling (and Pedro, for that matter) and make the National League - American League transition easily (see: Vasquez, Javier). Some NL pitchers really do need that weak spot in the lineup to be successful, and upon arrival in the AL, find themselves in a heap 'o trouble.

Vasquez was just overrated as a pitcher. Pavano has good stuff and I think he can make the switch. After all, he has a fairly decent interleague record.

First, he doesn't. He seems to, but the man is still spending within his means.

You can STILL spend like a drunken sailor and be within your means. Look down the coast at Peter Angelos.

I think the Yankee organization knows full well how much advantage they get from spending so much on scouting.

Uh huh... and if a new owner comes in how much will he put on that? I don't think the organization will stay with the Steinbrenner family forever. Even if it does, perhaps a son will say we spend too much on that.

I prefer some optimism, and hope that new ownership would merely curtain some of the Steinbrenner insanities

Some would consider the contracts Steinbrenner has offered to his players who have contributed to be insane as well . For instance, do you know that Bernie Williams made $12 million this year? I'm sure you know that Jeter made $18 million in 2004. Those are just insane overpayment!

[Arrian]

Yes, they overpaid to keep the homegrown guys. I know that.

To be fair, those contracts were before the market adjustment. They have to be looked at alongside, say, Manny's contract. Still more bang for the buck for the Sox, there, no argument, but it doesn't look as bad as it does if you compare contracts negotiated recently.

Steinbrenner's nuttiness contributed to Jeter's insane contract, but not necessarily in the way people might think. Jeter would have taken a far more reasonable deal the year before, and nearly did, but Steinbrenner thought it was too much and pulled it off the table. Then Jeter went and had a good year (or was it just a great postseason... it all blends) and his value went up yet again. Plus several other star players signed huge contracts, driving the price up further. So the contract ended up being ridiculous.

Bernie... well, that one was smart play by the Red Sox & Bernie's agent. At the time it seemed a little high, but not outrageous.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


This from the loser who says we win all the time

We Yankee fans define ourtselves as winners- and we have the basic evidence, 39 Pennats, 26 WS.

You guys define yourself as loveable losers, as a team, of suffering fans- always so close, then BAM!, gone. Always next year.

Wait till next year!

yup, theres a counter curse to the Bambino's curse. A curse that was born between the east river and the sea, between Bay Ridge and East New York, that redounded from the Navy Yard to Bushwick to Coney Island. And now its spread abroad throughout the land, a curse of all the idealists and losers against all the mighty empires. This is the curse that means that even when the Yankees win, theyre still stuck with Steinbrenner.

The Brooklyn Dodgers have been avenged, and shall be again and again.

[Arrian]

Hmm, interesting parallel, actually. The Dodgers finally beat the Yankees in, what, 1955? 1956? I forget. Then what? Two championships since ('81 and '88, right?)? Not too shabby, but the Yanks didn't suddenly crumble into obscurity.

-Arrian

[OzzyKP]

What does Steinbrenner do (besides the Yankees)? Where did he get his money?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian


Hmm, interesting parallel, actually. The Dodgers finally beat the Yankees in, what, 1955? 1956? I forget. Then what? Two championships since ('81 and '88, right?)? Not too shabby, but the Yanks didn't suddenly crumble into obscurity.

-Arrian

the origin of the curse.
1941, 1947, 1949, 1952, 1953, 1956.

years that will live in infamy.

The revenge 1965, dodgers (but LA Dodgers ) beat Yankees. (this was also the year that Sandy Koufax refused to pitch the first game, because it fell on Yom Kippur, thereby making him as much as any single person the revivor of Judaism in America and certainly establishing for some of us the defining WS moment of the century)

a different kind of revenge - 1969 - the Mets, heirs to hopelessness beat the O's, who had beaten the floundering Yankees.

The failed chance for the sweetest revenge - 2000, when the Mets lose the first subway series since 1956.

A different sort of revenge - Yankee series losses in 2001 and 2003. Will the subway series be the LAST Yankees win?

And now 2004, the Yankees abject humiliation before the previously hapless Red Sox. This may be a one off for the Red Sox, but it wont be for the larger battle against the evil empire.

[Ming]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
What does Steinbrenner do (besides the Yankees)? Where did he get his money?

Working in the family business... Steinbrenner earned his fortune by heading the Cleveland-based American Shipbuilding Company. Made tons of money...

[Arrian]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
What does Steinbrenner do (besides the Yankees)? Where did he get his money?

The Yankees are his money now. He originally made it in shipping, IIRC. He bought the Yankees for some ridiculously small sum ($1 million or something like that, no joke) and built them into the Evil Empire (tm) you see today.

They have awesome marketing power and they have their own TV network (YES!). Ticket sales are good, too, obviously.

Some of it's just the market. Greater NYC could support 3-4 teams, and only has 2.

Some of it's business smarts (marketing deals, the network).

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

To be fair, those contracts were before the market adjustment. They have to be looked at alongside, say, Manny's contract.

I am . The thing is that a lot of teams will not totally overpay to keep homegrown talent (or players who have been there for a while). While Pedro isn't exactly homegrown, the Red Sox have said that won't pay him more than $13 million a year. Which, IMO, is smart, because he ain't worth that now. I think after Steinbrenner, a new ownership group or heirs of Steinny will make similar decisions instead of, say, offering Pedro $17 million a year to stay with the team and not try free agency.

Steinbrenner does stuff like that cause he's a nut .

[Arrian]

Yes, yes he is. But he's OUR nut, damnit!

-Arrian

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yeah, I'm surprised that a Red Sox fan would be thinking how wonderful it is... any TRUE Red Sox fan would be scared to death that they blow 4 in a row .

Naaaah - not this team, not this year.

This one's OURS, baby.