Kerry’s hypocrisy

[Sava]

I have not gotten over Vietnam.

Well you should...

[Capt Dizle]

It may be a troll to you guys. Come November it will be votes in the bank for Bush, as DD points out.

[Sava]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
It may be a troll to you guys. Come November it will be votes in the bank for Bush, as DD points out.

well normal, intelligent voters don't buy into your Newsmax/FoxNews/Rush Limbaugh propaganda... so don't waste too much of your time trying to spread this garbage...

[Kuciwalker]

Normal, intelligent voter is an oxymoron, Sava.

[Sava]

Originally posted by skywalker
Normal, intelligent voter is an oxymoron, Sava.

perhaps... but the people choose our leaders, so despite their level of intelligence, their opinions, perceptions, and desires matter.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
1. We have allies other than Israel that are not pro israel. In that case we should be fair with our friends. Israel has fired on an american vessel. Israel is the kind of friend that you gets you into fights with others. Why don't we use some of our influence on israel. If we were fair we would have a better chance of getting peace in that area of the world. One of the main factors that caused WW2 was the treaty of Versailles after WW1. Why don't we learn from our mistakes and start treating these countries fair.

Pax, if you haven't noticed, we do use our influence quite extensively with Israel. It is just that they at times choose to ignore us when in their opinion their own security interests are sufficiently at stake. On the issue of negotiations, we try to be a very fair arbiter. From Kissinger, to Carter, to Clinton and to Bush, we had then very respectful of the Arab point of view in negotiations.

2. Why do you make communism seem like it's a bad word like rapist or child molester. It's not. It's just a person with a different political view. We should not hate those that disagree with us but look for common ground. If you take that one word that you despise out of the equation, you might question our involvement in vietnam.

Pax, if one values liberty and human rights and the progress of man and civilization, if one values morality in government; if one values the concept that government flows from the consent of the governed and that government should be "of the people, by the people and for people," then one must oppose, with every ounce of one's conviction, communism, a philosophy and form of government that is utterly destructive of everything I just mentioned.

In addition, Ned if you are such a strong supporter of democracy, how can you justify the U.S. involvement in Vietnam. We were instrumental in opposing the geneva accords that called for elections in 1956. We basically denied the people of vietnam self determination and then sent american soldiers off to make sure that our will was done. Not the people of vietnams will. How exactly can you support that?

If the government of North Vietnam not been communist, I am quite sure we would have supported elections in 1956. But, due to the nature of communism, had we allowed that election to go forward, that would have been the last election Vietnam would have enjoyed. We would have sold the entire country into slavery. Such an action is not the action of honorable country that believes in freedom and democracy.

3. On Iraq. So the only way to find out what's in Iraq is to open a can of worms. Look at the news that's just what Iraq is.

Kerry says that he would have never gone to war with Iraq. That tells us a lot about Kerry. No matter what the threat Saddam posed to the world and to his own people, Kerry says that he would have done nothing effective to contain or remove that threat or to liberate the people of Iraq from oppression and genocide. He would have allowed Saddam to continue in power indefinitely, all the time continuing to invest in the development of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles, to continue to develop nuclear weapons for all we knew, to continue to press his war of genocide against the Kurds and the Shi'ites and to continue to daily shoot at American and British airplanes even while starving his people by diverting money from the oil-for-food programs to building enormous palacse, filling his Swiss bank accounts and corrupting the politicians of Britain, France and Germany.

Kerry is a paragon of "virtue" and of ignoring the security of America and the plight of oppressed peoples.

4. I question the need for high tech weapons in Iraq. You can send stealth bombers and tomahawk missiles to patrol the streets. So I don't see the value of using a 100 million dollar missile to take out a building when a 100 thousand dollar missile can do the trick just as well. Our high tech weapons do not protect us from low level weapons. The USS Cole has one of the most advance weapons and detection suites in the world. A small boat loaded with explosives was able to do what an excocet could not.

Pax, surely you jest? We won the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq using the very weapons that Kerry opposed. Had Kerry been president during all these years, we would not have had an army at all. We would have instead had a police force incapable of doing anything effective in defense of America.

[Pax]

1. I don't jest. I know people who were on the Cole. The Navy right now is investigating having ships more capable for littoral warfare vs the all purpose ships we have now that of course are capable of using expensive weapons on small boats but would prefer to have a 50 cal handy.

2. Please reread my statement. The PEOPLE were not ALLOWED to VOTE. WE SUBJUGATED THEM. ENSLAVED THEM. Voting is the essensce of democracy. WE did not allow democracy tp work. You're saying that people of Vietnam could have any kind of government they wanted as long as it's the one we picked out for them. I wish you could understand how imperialist your viewpoint is on at least this subject. The question is do you support democracy or don't you. Do you support self determination or imperialism?

3. Those British and American planes that Iraq was shooting at were flying over Iraq not detrroit and not liverpool. The U.S. and Britain used a .N. measure to justify the flights but they were not flying under a u.n. flag. Once again are you for imperialism or self determination.

[Kuciwalker]

So, as soon as we went into Germany and Japan, we should have let them re-elect their governments? Implementing democracy in the short term results in less liberty in the long term.

Oh, and those planes over Iraq were enforcing a UN no-fly zone... we weren't "exploiting" a UN resolution. IIRC the no-fly zone was over the Kurdish area of Iraq, and so it was self-determinition we were SUPPORTING...

[Sava]

Oh, and those planes over Iraq were enforcing a UN no-fly zone... we weren't "exploiting" a UN resolution. IIRC the no-fly zone was over the Kurdish area of Iraq, and so it was self-determinition we were SUPPORTING...

AFAIK, it wasn't a UN no-fly-zone... it was exclusively set up and enforced by the Brits and Americans.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Sava
well normal, intelligent voters don't buy into your Newsmax/FoxNews/Rush Limbaugh propaganda... so don't waste too much of your time trying to spread this garbage...

Of course they do Sava. You know better than this...

[Pax]

Originally posted by skywalker
So, as soon as we went into Germany and Japan, we should have let them re-elect their governments? Implementing democracy in the short term results in less liberty in the long term.

Oh, and those planes over Iraq were enforcing a UN no-fly zone... we weren't "exploiting" a UN resolution. IIRC the no-fly zone was over the Kurdish area of Iraq, and so it was self-determinition we were SUPPORTING...

I haven't considered Japan or Germany but the facts Vietnam are well known it was agreed that a vote would take place in 1956. That did not happen so the people were given less i.e. no freedom because Washington felt Ho Chi Minh would win. That's not fair play. It's alos a fact that the Vietnamese people declared there indepedance from france and we helped france subjugate them further. They fought very hard for their independance no thamks to us. So do we believe in freedom or not. Who is the hypocrite?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Sava
AFAIK, it wasn't a UN no-fly-zone... it was exclusively set up and enforced by the Brits and Americans.

Even if that's true, can you complain about us trying to keep Saddam from gassing more Kurds?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus

I haven't considered Japan or Germany but the facts Vietnam are well known it was agreed that a vote would take place in 1956. That did not happen so the people were given less i.e. no freedom because Washington felt Ho Chi Minh would win. That's not fair play. It's alos a fact that the Vietnamese people declared there indepedance from france and we helped france subjugate them further. They fought very hard for their independance no thamks to us. So do we believe in freedom or not. Who is the hypocrite?

It's EXACTLY like Germany or Japan - we didn't hold "elections" in EITHER of those because guess who would win? The enemy. Instead, we put them under martial law until they were rehabilitated.

[Pax]

It disgusts me that the champions of democracy only support it when it's convenient. The lesson of vietnam should be that you can't defeat the will of a people.

Germany and Japan were both countries that had declared war on us and when we won we demanded and unconditional surrender Vietnam was a country that had been oppressed by the French and who had fought for their independance. We had no business there except if we wanted to help them fight for freedom. Our support of our friends the french proved we had no concern for freedom.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
It disgusts me that the champions of democracy only support it when it's convenient. The lesson of vietnam should be that you can't defeat the will of a people.

Germany and Japan were both countries that had declared war on us and when we won we demanded and unconditional surrender Vietnam was a country that had been oppressed by the French and who had fought for their independance. We had no business there except if we wanted to help them fight for freedom. Our support of our friends the french proved we had no concern for freedom.

PAX, all valid points if you ignore who was on the other side.