Damn taxes...

[Al B. Sure!]

Daniel:

companies are usually forced to give warnings before lay-offs so workers can prepare a little bit... there's also unemployment benefits and all that...

trust me, it aint as bad as you made it out to be. i know people or people's pops who been unemployed for weeks and they still didnt get no welfare

[DanielXY]

And sure, there is probably a case where someone is completely out of luck on all of that stuff. But that's life. Life's a *****, and then you die - but some die sooner than others. That doesn't excuse stealing, though.

You tell me, you wont steal when you are about to starve? **** that. Noone cares about any morals when it comes down to your very survival. I somehow doubt you are the holy exception

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by DanielXY

You tell me, you wont steal when you are about to starve? **** that. Noone cares about any morals when it comes down to your very survival. I somehow doubt you are the holy exception

I dont think that things would get that bad if you are willing to work hard. Allthough if you are unable to work that is a problem though.. I would not steal, I want to work to make a living.

[DanielXY]

Yes I know its not that hard in most cases. Usually you can get a friend or relative to help you. Or some org. like churches or whatever. But there are still some cases left where there is not much of a choiche...


Hm, how much is the US spending on welfare each year? And how much is that in % from the whole budget?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DanielXY
With all this anti-welfare thing going on:
I always wondered what you are supposed to live off, when you just lost your job, got no savings, noone is hiring you atm no matter how hard you try, and there is no welfare to help you out for a few month?
I mean the only rational option left (besides living from garbage) is go and steal the money.
I agree welfare should be very low living standard (enough for cheap housing and food, thats it). But essentiell giving people with tough luck no other realistic option than to go for the crime route doesnt seem like such great a concept...

We have unemployment insurence for that plus there is welfare for those that will submite to the means test but the lazy bums can only be on it for a total of two years in their life time and then they are forced to work. As in the goverment basically sets them up with a low wage job, remember though these are low skill people with low ambition, and tells them to have a nice life. That's the federal system and some states kick in a little more money but over all I think the welfare to work strategy is a good one. We no longer have people living off welfare for a decade or more nor do we have women deliberately getting pragnant just so they can get more welfare. Beleive it or not prior to the mid 1990's this was a problem especially in the black community.

[Jack_www]

I think most of welfare cost comes in the from of medicare programs for poor people. Just in the state of California we spend billions on it, especially with all the legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico coming into the state. I am sure the one of the federal governments highest expence is heathcare.

[Al B. Sure!]

Daniel:

trust me... it's not as bad as you're thinking. you'd be surprised how even in a place like the city where people don't have that strong of a community, you can still count on people... and you can rummage (or hustle) some money together for food and what not. and that aint even mentioning unemployment benefits, savings, charities, etc.

We no longer have people living off welfare for a decade or more nor do we have women deliberately getting pragnant just so they can get more welfare. Beleive it or not prior to the mid 1990's this was a problem especially in the black community.

what the hell kind of bull**** is this?!

[Al B. Sure!]

oh and also, Daniel... a considerable majority of americans are suspicious of welfare. i dont think you can get a majority of americans to ever support european style welfare systems... so thats the other thing to keep in mind... popular opinion.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
what the hell kind of bull**** is this?!

This was a huge deal in the late 1980's and it was in just about every major paper, journal, and magazine in the country. There were many, not as many as the critics hinted out but still, varified cases of this occuring. In the early 1990's the law was changed so that welfare would not increase if woman had more children while on welfare and they we're provided with free birth control. Now, if she's to stupid to follow the directions then it's her problem.

[Al B. Sure!]

wasnt that proven to just be a myth though... i was too young to know about this back then but i can't imagine anyone just pumping out kids to collect more money... i know women probably were on welfare and were kind of loose and got pregnant but not for the intent to collect more.

(and what does collecting more mean? they got to pay for another mouth)

[Dinner]

They'd get an additional amount of money per month per child. I'm trying to remember an article I read 12 or more years ago but they had several crack addicted women who intentially had more children just so they could have more money to spend on drugs. It was disgusting and totally illogical since a child was likely to cost more then the $200 per month welfare increase but never the less people did it.

I'm sure it wasn't in the numbers Republicans were claiming but there were cases where women admited to reporters that this was what they were doing and it became major national news. Eventually it lead to the welfare to work system where people had to work for their welfare checks, their time on welfare was capped (instead of having people who were literally on the dole for their entire life), and they no loner got increases for any children they had while on welfare.

[Dinner]

Having kids for welfare money is stupid but if you give an incentive then you will find a few nuts who will do the illogical. Removing the money incentive removes that temptation.

[OliverFA]

We can discuss which is the proper amount of taxes, but discussing the taxes themselves is completely nonsense.

As has already been pointed, taxes are used for all this things that are needed but noone would do because it is too expensive for them or because their benefits are difficult to be seen if you don't pay much attention. Just think how would life be without a government to protect your freedom.

But I agree that taxes should be as low as posible (without compromising the state basic functions of course!), because for most things the use that the individuals do of the money is much efficient that the use that the states does.

[DanielXY]

i dont think you can get a majority of americans to ever support european style welfare systems...

Yes, welfare in europe esspecially Germany is way to big. ATM I would be better of living from welfare than I do now from my (trainee) job. And I life rather comfortable. (I get 550,-/m, on welfare I would get rent + 300,- + money for clothes, + money for special stuff like furniture/tv, etc. when I dont have them).

IMHO the ideal welfare system would be like: Free housing in homes. Those homes could be like german style prisons without all the security stuff (Thats not as bad as it sounds, they are rather comfortable: 15qm for 2 persons, 2 beds, a desk with chair, toilet.). You get 100,-/m for food and everything else you want to buy (you can eat from 30,- a month without malenutrition, if you want to eat good healthy stuff 60,- is reasonable). Thats it. The incenitiv to look for job and get out of those homes would be big I supose.

I believe such a system is cheaper than none. Cose in that case crime would go up and you would have to put those poor fellas in real prisons which is much more expensive, not to speak of increasing costs for police and courts....

[Dis]

how did people survive before welfare?

I have a hunch they worked for a living. yeah maybe some died. But most got off their lazy ass and worked.

The more support you give people, the less they will be inclined to work.