The Medieval Pack II Beta: The Gathering (Part 2)

[Locutus]

Originally posted by jadlakha
I am using the newest update.

Well, did you get the messages when AIs change to war strategies? Was there anything wrong with them when they were displayed? Were they displayed at all? Could you and everyone else describe how the AIs deal with the war strategies? Do they switch immediately upon the start of a war and stay in them throughout the war or do they wait a long time, switch in and out all the time, etc? Wes and I and maybe others would like to know so we can improve the AI further.

Ruarc,
They seemed to work normal for me, but I never tested them very extensively. I work with build queues a lot so I just select all my cities, open the build manager and add or insert the Granary to the list when it comes available again. I'll pay closer attention to it next time I play though.

Tim's post gives me an idea: why not replace the current archer by the slinger and add the current archer where you'd normally expect an upgraded archer (longbow, crossbow, whatever). It may not be completely historically accurate but neither is the current setup and with the graphics resources available a historically accurate setup will be difficult in any case.

Hi Radical, nice to see you back in the forums again. I agree on the counter-bombard feature, it does seem a bit too powerful, esp. if the AI bombards a stack of 6 siege engines with only 1 catapult of his own. Not a chance in hell he'll survive.

I think celebrating cities help somewhat in growth, so it may be good to keep that for what it is (I could be wrong though). If you're having a lot of celebrations, I'd advice you to starve or work your people to death, that'll teach 'em not to celebrate

I agree on the Elite thing, it would be nice if they could be more easily recognized.

[Radical_Manuvr]

Great Mod! Thanks to all who worked so hard on it.

I've been playing on very hard level and it seems that it will be impossible to win for at least the first 100 turns. The AI starts building Wonders on turn 2 and my build list shows it will take me 139 turns or something so I just give up on getting the early Wonders. It might make the game too easy but maybe the support costs of the early units should be lowered. I had one game where I only had one city of size 2 and I got 2 or 3 units from huts and my unit support costs were eating up 75% of my production for quite some time.

I think the first 30 Elite units went to the AIs but I've got one in each of the last 2 games (once I'm sure I'm going to win I usually get bored and start a new game). So far, no other civs have started a war with me. I've taken 3 games into the 1700s. The last game I was at war with Mexico almost the entire game. When they started settling on my continents I declared war. They had tons of Triremes and never attacked my ships until finally one time near the end.

I'm not sure about the counter bombard ability. Each time the AI bombarded me they lost their units (when I had bombarding units in the stack) . I was a tester for Alex 2.0 and Harlan took it out for that reason if I remember correctly. Maybe it works better on the later units, these were all siege engines or catapults.

Suggestion: change the Very Happy Threshold in the MM2_const.txt file to 99. It's still set at 85. It doesn't do anything for your score and you get the annoying messages about celebrations.

Suggestion: add something to the GL or add an "E" to the beginning or end of the Elite unit's names. I suppose this will happen less often as I get more familiar with everything but it's very frustrating to research an advance to get a unit only to find it's an elite one and I can't build it unless I get lucky with the random chance.

I'm not sure what you still have in the works but here are some problems I noticed.

Culverins don't have sound for movement or bombard.

The siege engine graphic is ok in most places but on the board/tile it appears as a chariot. I tried to find the problem but couldn't figure it out. Maybe the graphic file just has the wrong picture???

The horse archer unit has the sound for the original cavalry unit (gunfire).

In the GL many of the carry capacities for the ships are not correct.

In some cases refugees fled to my cities when I was the conqueror.

Guess that's it for now. Thanks again.

[preacherman]

Wes, Started playing new mod, seem ok I am in the industiral age and have never seen a elite units ether mine or Ai's. so not sure it is working. I am playing hard level, 8 civs, reguler map. I started on a small continent with one other civ. He died by the 20 turn. One trouble I had is that 1/3 of my land was tundra or glacier. I had three goods on that cost line that I could not use. because 1) could not build roads to them 2) There is no production with that type of land and water. I would sugest that we be able to build roads on both and railroads on tundra. also that drilling platforms be able to be put on ice. The north Slope is more ice then anything eles and we are pulling most of our oil from there.

Science wise I was able to keep up with the Ais by stealing it till I got my science up to speed.

I like the idea of a Terracing tech, I have found times that I need to build on a mountain weather for strategic or economically reasons.

[Pintello]

Hi Wes,

I have now gotten more time to play your mod. It is working beautifully. The AIs seem to defend their cities pretty well. I even had one launch a counter attack against me with a stack of 7 units. Not bad I think.

The AI's stacks seem to be pretty well balanced between ranged and assault/defend units too. Both the stacks they attack with and the ones in their cities.

I did get the Elite Legion Unit my last game, so that slic seams to be working well. That Legion Unit really rocks Wes. I like it. It has good defend and attack values and it is a flanker. I think it models the capabilities of the Roman Legion very well.

Janilxx,

Thanks for the information about reloadslic.

That is all for now.

Timothy Pintello

[janilxx]

Originally posted by Pintello
I have a question. Has the problem of reloading slic every time you load a saved game still there, or is that not necessary anymore?

If I do not remember wrongly that reloadslic was needed for militias(without reloadslic you did not get new militiatypes(like phalanx)). Now militias are different and reloadslic is not needed.

[MrFun]

[Pintello]

Hi Wes,

I have been using the new files from Locutus' website. So far the game seems to be working beautifully. I am not far in the game and have not had to conquer anybody yet though, so I can't speak to how well the AIs are defending themselves. However, they do not seem to be a badly hit by the Barbarians as they used to be. This may indicate better city defence.

I am using Windows 2000 and so far I have never gotten an Elite unit even though I am sure I was the first person to discover some of the prerequisite advances. It this just bad luck or is there another reason for this?

I like the new units, at least the ones I have seen. I think you have thought out the benefits of the elite units well. They are enough to make a difference but not enough to unbalance the game. Good job there.

I have a question. Has the problem of reloading slic every time you load a saved game still there, or is that not necessary anymore?

I would also like to come in on Harlan's side about archers. I like the game the way it is, but it would be nice to have two different types of ranged units progressions. Say slinger to archer to longbowman/crossbowman, musketeer for one progression. You might could drop the slinger as both slingers and archer were contemparary. You could however may slinger a really cheap ranged unit with less ranged attack value. You could maybe pair it with the Warrior.

I thing another progression of ranged units could effectively be the artillary prgression. That would be Catapult, Seige Engine, Culverin, Cannon ( know you renamed it but I can't remember what to), Artillery, Self Propelled Artillery, ATA, etc...

I think the divergent ranged progressions would be there for the following reasons. It kind of reflects history. Catapults, Seige Engines, etc. have been around for a very long time. Even the Assyrians had them. While at the same time Archers of various types have been critical to the armies of history.

Back in ancient times military personal were broken down in to 5 basic types. Hand-to-hand combat, ranged infantry (archer, slingers, etc.), calvary military types (chariots, horsemen, elephants, camels, etc. Note: Yes there was an ancient camel calvary. The Arabs used them way before they ever become Muslims.), Artillery and Seige units (The Romans were the first to actually use catapults and ballistia as artillery units agains infantry as well as seige weapons. They also invented the crossbow. They called it a Scorpia.), and finally naval units.

Another reason divergent ranged progressions should be used is because when you get right down to it, Catapults and Seige Engines have very different funtions from archers. While the Romans used Catapults and Ballistia against infantry, they were useless against infantry as soon as they got close to them. Catapults and Seige Engines are stand-off weapons kind of like very long range weapons, archers are mid-range weapons. Long- ange and mid-range are valid weapons catagories even today.

I would give both Catapults and Seige Engines really good ranged attack but make them useless for hand to hand combat. With Seige Engine being more powerful than Catapult. I would not give good defensive value to artillery till Culverin come along, possible the Elite Bombard Unit as well. It wasn't till grape shot was invented that artillery did a really good job of defending itself without the support of large infantry formation.

I would also give the archer progression a much lower ranged attack than the Catapults and Seige Engines, but I would give them decent defense, but not as good as regular infantry. One possiblity is to give the archer and the longbowman the same ranged attack, but make the longbow better at peircing armour. I I remember correctly, that is one of the values that CTP2 allows for.

Also, here is something you may not have thought about. Modern infantry is actually a progression of the ranged infantry branch of the military, not the hand-to-hand branch. True hand-to-hand combat has gradually been replaced with mid-ranged combat supplemented by hand-to-hand combat when needed. Kind of like the Longbowman formation that the English employed so effectively in the 100 Years War. If there are any true hand-to-hand combat units left in todays militaries, they would probably be the specialized Special Forces units, not the standard infantry units we see today.

Just some thoughts there Wes. I am not criticizing you decisions in anyway. Like I prefaced this entire section with, I like the Med Mod 2 just like you have created it. My suggestion is more of an idea to enhance it even further than it is a criticism of what you have done so far.

I would also like to keep the possibility of buiding cities on mountains. It is not often, but sometimes this tactic has been very critical to maintaining the integrity of my civilization. Occationally a mountain city is absolutely critical to the stretigic situation you find yourself in. I would also mention that mountain cities even in ancient times have been viable. Just look at that famous mountain top city the Incas built. From all accounts it could even support itself food wise.

Here is an idea for a new advance. Call it terracing and let it allow the construction of irrigation on mountains and hills. This may require a new spite, I don't know, but it would be an elegant solution to the whole terraform or not terraform the mountain issue. Terracing prerequisites could be stone working and engineering or something like that. You can make it pretty expensive as far as PWs go as well. Maybe two to three times the cost of a mine on a mountain or something like that.

Well, I have said too much already. I will continue to play the game and keep you up to date as I go. I don't have as much time as a used to, but I still make time for it sometimes because that is often my best form of relaxation.

Regards,

Timothy Pintello

[Rhuarc]

Locutus, I understand now what you are saying, but when the Granaries reappear and you click on them to start building them does it actually add them to your build list and then build them over the next couple of turns like it is supposed to? Thanks for your help!

EDIT: misspelling!

[jadlakha]

Did anyone actually try out the new update yet?

I am using the newest update.

[MrFun]

Forgive me for posting something off-topic, but I'm desperate. Recently, I installed the official patch and Hack for Civilization: Call to Power (not Call to Power II). Then I installed We's Med Mod 4.0 pak. The game crashes now by the fourth turn.

After encountering this problem, I uninstalled CTP I again, and repeated all the patch installations, and the Mod pak installation and the same problem - crashes.

I have followed his troubleshooting readme, and still have problems.

I have been seeking help for this serious problem, and unfortunately, my thread that I originally posted in Apolyton Community section was moved to the inactive Civilization: Call to Power forum section, where no one interested is likely to read it.

I appreciate it if no one here lynches me for posting this in an irrelevant section of the forum. I would not normally do this, but Wes does not seem to have time to answer my e-mails, and I have not been able to locate the Med Mod 4.0 Public Release thread using the Archive search. Thank you for anyone's help.

[Locutus]

The building doesn't appear in your inventory 'cause it's not really there! If it were there you would have to actually pay maintenance for it. The wonder only simulates it's effects, it doesn't actually create the building, or at least that's how I understand it. When the wonder obsoletes, the effect of the building no longer applies and you'll have to build the building after all to take advantage of it's effects. That's why it reappears in the build queue: so you can take atvantage of it after the wonder obsoletes too. I never actually saw that other bug you're mentioning myself, I never had any problems with Granaries after they became available again, could it be a fluke?

[Rhuarc]

Ok, perhaps I have not played the mod enough to speak intelligently about this, but what about the Urban Planner? (Or is this unit no longer in the mod?) Should the Urban Planner be allowed to build cities in the mountains? In my opinion they should be able to, because by this era of the game technology has advanced enough to allow this.

Another question: When I build a wonder that gives me something in every city, why does that building not appear in my inventory? It dissapears from my build list though. Also, after a while the Granary suddenly re-appeared in my build list. When I clicked on it to add it to my build list it said "building started" but it doesn't appear in my list of things currently building. It is almost like there is a bug because when I click to build it automatically builds it right away. I have read all of the readme's and did not see anything referring to this topinc, so any insight you can give me would be a great help! Thanks everyone!

[Locutus]

Did anyone actually try out the new update yet? I'm getting the impression I forgot one messagebox when I sent the code for detecting war strategies to Wes, but oddly enough noone complained so far... Anyway, if there are any problems, you can solve them by adding the following lines at the top of MM2_SLC_Wouter.slc:

Messagebox 'MM2_GotHere' {
	Text(ID_MM2_GOT_HERE);
}

I'm still working on the other triggers, there are some (hopefully) minor bugs in them and some other stuff came up but should be done sometime this weekend.

I will do some more testing with the AI files this weekend too, the new settings sound like they could make a big difference.

Thanks for fixing the URL to my webpage, Jani, I wondered why it took so long to load when I checked it but the address looked fine and I didn't have time to look into it at the time.

Timeline & Wes, IIRC the Brokerage isn't supposed to show up in your inventory, only the effect of the Brokerage will be visible. If the gold output of all your cities increases with about 30% you know it works.

Wes, as any nerd should , I know all about chmod (the command with which you set permissions), but I don't know exactly what you mean by 'octal'. But if Don or Markos & Dan can't help you out I'm not sure if I could help though, esp. not since I don't know the first thing about the Apolyton file server.

Well, actually I'm not sure what those settings do but changing them (to something very similar what you have) did improve the map. I also made the following changes:

FORESTWET 15
GRASSWET 60 # was 50, WS (2001-5-18)
PLAINSWET 20 # was 30, WS (2001-5-18)
DESERTWET 0
# This leaves 5 for swamp. was 10, WS (2001-5-18)

And I changed the map-settings in the new game screen so that I had maximum diversity. The amount of swamp that disappeared wasn't even all that enourmous but what was much more important to me is that it wasn't there in such big chunks anymore but much more spread out over the entire map. If you want to reduce the amount of swamp further, I'd suggest increasing the amount of grass or plains in the above settings and possibly in the settings you mentioned too. I have no idea what the limitations of those settings are either, but I suggest using some extremely high or low values for grass and possibly forest and see how that affects the map. Based on the results of that, you may be able to better judge what they do. I planned on doing this myself too at some point but I already want to try so many other things as well I have way too much ideas at the moment, can't even realize 10% of them due to lack of time

It would indeed be a good idea to see if Don has thoughts or files to share about this issue, as Peter suggests. I do know he uses fault.dll as map plug-in in userprofile.txt and for that reason I started to use it myself too.

The moment I heard of avatars I just knew you would use that pic as Avatar, Wes

[jadlakha]

An idea came to my mind. If settlers are not allowed to walk on mountains and building cities is disabled that way. What if we have road there. Settlers should then be possible to walk there. But still there should not be a possibility to build city there(?). So building cities on mountains should be disabled so that when settler is trying to build city the terrain is checked and if it is mountain building is not allowed. And in my opinion settlers should have the possibility to walk on mountains. If there is nig mountainchain and player would like to settle to the other side of that chain it would not be possible if settler can not pass the mountains.

Actually Settlers ARE allowed to walk on mountains, however they are not allowed to build cities there.

[Peter Triggs]

Wes,

The data you quote above is part of the map generator. Skorpion59 had this sorted ages ago: he's got customized settings for his map generator that produce vastly improved maps. (So have I, but I've never been able to get results as good as his.) Why don't you ask him for a copy of his Const.txt?