Team Sarantium Diplomacy

[polarnomad]

Wish we didn't have to waste turns running back and forth just because they couldn't make up their minds. Giving us the location of the Horde without us agreeing to reconsider the scouting for copper plan after they refused and sent us on our merry way doesn't leave us much option to say "no thanks".

We're headed in the direction of the Horde anyway now, so it's not like they're really providing us with a service anymore. This whole thing stinks to me. I don't suppose thanking them for pointing out the location of the Horde, but refusing to help with copper would be a "faux-pas". I just don't feel like they're giving us any choice and I don't like it.

Or maybe I'm just grumpy at the moment...

[polarnomad]

Having thought some more, I realize that there still is value to knowing the lay of Sarantium's lands. However, I don't see any reason to allow them into ours, unless they can think of something better than scouting for horses.

Also, it would be interesting to see what the Horde plans to do with their archer that is approaching Sarantium's borders.

BUT, considering the situation, perhaps the Horde would be interested in making us an offer to withhold from informing Sarantium about the presence/absence of copper near their lands.

[UnOrthOdOx]

My thoughts on it too, actually.

****ing bastards telling us no first. But at the same time they already revealed the location of the Horde. And, I don't want their scout in our borders at all. It offers us nothing.

I've talked to con, seeing if we can't swing a screenshot from em instead of just the number pad location.

There is value on scouting their terrain AND seeing what lies beyond it, however. That area has the potential of hiding a lot of land.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by polarnomad
Wish we didn't have to waste turns running back and forth just because they couldn't make up their minds. Giving us the location of the Horde without us agreeing to reconsider the scouting for copper plan after they refused and sent us on our merry way doesn't leave us much option to say "no thanks".

*snip*

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
****ing bastards telling us no first. But at the same time they already revealed the location of the Horde.

I agree with polarnomad that we owe them nothing. Their fault for not signing a deal first. As I see it, we are not anymore beholden to them than anyone we are in negotiations with.

Originally posted by polarnomad
Or maybe I'm just grumpy at the moment...

Grumpy in a reasonable way, I'd say.

Originally posted by polarnomad
However, I don't see any reason to allow them into ours, unless they can think of something better than scouting for horses.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
And, I don't want their scout in our borders at all. It offers us nothing.

Agreed, no reason to let them see AB.

Originally posted by polarnomad
BUT, considering the situation, perhaps the Horde would be interested in making us an offer to withhold from informing Sarantium about the presence/absence of copper near their lands.

That would violate our confidentiality of negotiations principle, so I would be against it. (Maybe you're just joking, but I can't tell. )

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I've talked to con, seeing if we can't swing a screenshot from em instead of just the number pad location.

There is value on scouting their terrain AND seeing what lies beyond it, however. That area has the potential of hiding a lot of land.

If they'd give us actual screenie(s) of their Hordeward explorations I'd be willing to change the scout's course. Screenies of their area would remove some of the need for exploration in this direction in the first place. Make sure you don't accept anything from them until we've signed an agreement, though. They've already given us the Horde's location for free out of either naivete or an attempt to pressure us; I don't want to give them any more wiggle room to go screaming about how the Mercs cheated them should the deal fall through.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I'm going to have to consider how to word it. But I get the feeling we're no longer interested in this.

Essentially (I'll make it sound nice later)

We are no longer interested in that arrangement as we were told no 2 turns ago and have already spent those 2 turns scouting in a new direction. Payment was to be in the form of information, something that changes turn by turn. We have already deduced the location of Team Horde with info gained in the last 2 turns.

We are not interested in their telling us where horses are. (I am tempted to tell them we already know, this will remove the impact of their telling us where that pony is. From a pure PR perspective, this is the way to go IMO) And we do not give permission for their scout to enter our border.

The deal was not agreed to by both sides, and while they already divulged the location of the Horde, we had agreed to nothing at this point, having been told no 2 turns ago we considered the deal off, thus found other means of obtaining this information.

We would consider changing course and scouting for them for actual screenshots of their exploration to date, but this would require a team vote.

[Kloreep]

Sounds good, though as you say it needs gentle wording. Also, we need to be sure not to state that their info on the horde was not actually news to us. We figured they were in the south, sure, but where on the east/west axis (or indeed exactly how far south) was not exactly settled by the deductions we had already made. They did give us some new info... we just hadn't agreed to pay them anything for it.

Edit: And as far as not being interested: I personally would be ready to turn around and scout their copper situation in exchange for Sarantium's southern screenshots + a certain number of turns free passage. As you say, Sarantium's borders might hide an extensive NE peninsula for all we know; this would allow us to find out. But I would only consider the backtracking worth it if Sarantium gave us some maps of the area we're already heading into, otherwise it's better for us to just continue onward and get some info on the Horde's surroundings.

Not saying that I speak for the team on this, of course, but I personally am still interested if they can meet the map condition.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Kloreep

Grumpy in a reasonable way, I'd say.

Originally posted by Kloreep

That would violate our confidentiality of negotiations principle, so I would be against it. (Maybe you're just joking, but I can't tell. )

Well, yes and no... The Horde is inevitably going to see us entering Sarantium's borders so they will need to be informed beforehand of what is going on in a statement of some form. Seeing as how they are planning to impose some kind of pressure on Sarantium militarily, I'm sure they would rather Sarantium remain ignorant as to the presence/absence of copper in the area. How the statement is worded would be the tricky part, but we could imply that Sarantium doesn't necessarily need the info if the Horde have something better to offer...

EDIT: Then again, we wouldn't really even have to say anything specific to the Horde about the option of not helping Sarantium. Once the Horde realize the implications of our help, they may ask us not to on their own. However, if we were to do something like this it should be executed delicately, since it has the danger of angering both Sarantium and the Horde, which is of no good to us obviously.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx

We are no longer interested in that arrangement as we were told no 2 turns ago and have already spent those 2 turns scouting in a new direction. Payment was to be in the form of information, something that changes turn by turn. We have already deduced the location of Team Horde with info gained in the last 2 turns.

We are not interested in their telling us where horses are. (I am tempted to tell them we already know, this will remove the impact of their telling us where that pony is. From a pure PR perspective, this is the way to go IMO) And we do not give permission for their scout to enter our border.

The deal was not agreed to by both sides, and while they already divulged the location of the Horde, we had agreed to nothing at this point, having been told no 2 turns ago we considered the deal off, thus found other means of obtaining this information.

We would consider changing course and scouting for them for actual screenshots of their exploration to date, but this would require a team vote.

I am glad we agree and that this is the course of action we are taking. Telling them we have Animal Husbandry won't hurt us and will indeed lessen their impression that they have revealed too much.

Originally posted by Kloreep

I personally would be ready to turn around and scout their copper situation in exchange for Sarantium's southern screenshots + a certain number of turns free passage. As you say, Sarantium's borders might hide an extensive NE peninsula for all we know; this would allow us to find out. But I would only consider the backtracking worth it if Sarantium gave us some maps of the area we're already heading into, otherwise it's better for us to just continue onward and get some info on the Horde's surroundings.

I too would agree to these terms.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by polarnomad
Well, yes and no... The Horde is inevitably going to see us entering Sarantium's borders so they will need to be informed beforehand of what is going on in a statement of some form.

They may see us entering their borders. Doesn't mean we owe them any sort of notification though.

As for agreeing not to reveal things to Sarantium... if we sign an agreement, negotiating with the Horde about it would mean breaking it. The only thing I think we can offer the Horde would be Sarantium's troop disposition, and that would only be if we are allowed to enter and if Sarantium is not smart enough to demand such secrecy of their troops be written into the contract (a fair demand, IMO).

[polarnomad]

Yes, I see your point. Although, without explanation, the Horde will wonder what the heck is going on.

[inamirrordarkly]

x-posted from Turn 32 - 2760 BC

Originally posted by inamirrordarkly

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I think it would be best if this transaction would be kept secret for the duration of the game, but that’s my opinion and I would like to hear your views on this.

Won't The Horde (and other teams Sarantium has contact with if any) automatically know as soon as "war" is declared. If so we obviously cannot deny it if asked. Do we just have "no comment"? Or is the vague answer of "We were contracted to render a service which could only be accomplished through a 'declaration of war'" acceptable?

How does this mesh with our stated practice of being public about all contracts?

If we are to be consistant what "price" should be required to secure our secrecy?

If we take this public (at this point due to meta-game rules we could only tell The Horde) how much information would we want to divulge. Sarantium obviously doesn't want The Horde know they lack BW but we don't really want to let The Horde know we have it if we don't have to.

Also, if we do not keep this secret, what sort of fallout can we expect in Merc-Sarantium relationships?

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by inamirrordarkly

Won't The Horde (and other teams Sarantium has contact with if any) automatically know as soon as "war" is declared. If so we obviously cannot deny it if asked. Do we just have "no comment"? Or is the vague answer of "We were contracted to render a service which could only be accomplished through a 'declaration of war'" acceptable?

How does this mesh with our stated practice of being public about all contracts?

If we are to be consistant what "price" should be required to secure our secrecy?

If we take this public (at this point due to meta-game rules we could only tell The Horde) how much information would we want to divulge. Sarantium obviously doesn't want The Horde know they lack BW but we don't really want to let The Horde know we have it if we don't have to.

Also, if we do not keep this secret, what sort of fallout can we expect in Merc-Sarantium relationships?

I do believe that the Horde will know once we enter a state of war with Sarantium. I do not believe that we need to notify anyone else of anything due to the no public disclosure clause in the forums until contact is made with everyone. So essentially it boils down to how much we are to tell the Horde, and I guess that question should be answered by Sarantium themselves.

As far as consistency of payment is concerned, I don't believe we can really be consistent until currency is researched, and even then we will have to be open to some negotiation.

If Sarantium requires secrecy then they will have to come up with a deal to secure this from us. In which case, we can simply say to the Horde that we are performing a service for Sarantium and are under contractual obligation to protect its confidentiality by our client.

If Sarantium does ask to maintain confidentiality, we are pretty much required to do so or none of our future contracts will be of much value.

At least this is my take on the situation ATM.

[UnOrthOdOx]

All we need tell the horde is we arranged for transport of our scout through their lands. This required a declaration of war due to game mechanics.

They don't need to know we are on contract for anything.

[polarnomad]

Wouldn't it seem strange for Sarantium to allow us to pass through when we could just as well go around?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Ok, let's try to make it sound perdy

Dear Sarantium

Team Mercenary is willing to turn it's scout around and agrees to scout your terrain for sources of copper in return for a screenshot of your southern scouting near and around the Horde borders.

2 turns ago we offered this same service for a general desciption of where the Horde was. We were turned down at that time and sent on our way. While it is true you provided such a description in your last message, information changes from turn to turn, and we had already deduced that Team Horde was to your south during those those two turns, and have spent them moving towards the area to scout for ourselves. A screenshot removes much of the need to scout for ourselves, however, and will thus be considered payment enough at the present time. This offer will only be good for a very limited time, however. Each turn we move away lessens the value of such a screenshot, and lengthens the time it would take for us to backtrack.

As for the location of Horses, Team Mercenary already has this knowledge, and does not require your assistance here. As such, your scout will not be welcome inside our borders.

Team Mercenary can agree to keep the specifics of your terrain confidential for a limited number of turns to be discussed. However, permanent secrecy of these specifics will require substantial payment as it will severely limit Team Mercenary in map or screenshot trades for the duration of the game.

Team Mercenary will be revealing all deals we have made. This one is no exception. If Team Sarantium wishes their name to be left off the log, some form of tribute will be required.

-UnOrthOdOx
Team Mercenary Representative.

Well?

Someone else might want to take a stab at it if it's too rough. I'm working on little sleep.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
All we need tell the horde is we arranged for transport of our scout through their lands. This required a declaration of war due to game mechanics.

They don't need to know we are on contract for anything.

And I believe we shouldn't tell them about the contract while it is underway.

Afterwards, though, we are still going with the policy of publicity for all completed contracts that have not been negotiated otherwise, right? (Ah, I see you've included mention of that in the message...)

Made some grammatical corrections (unmarked) and a few changes of wording/tone below. Mostly just trying to avoid demanding words like "tribute."

Also changed the second paragraph to say that we had no completed agreement, and use that as the primary reason we do not feel beholden, not the relative uselessness of the information.

Dear Sarantium

Team Mercenary is willing to turn its scout around and agree to scout your terrain for sources of copper in return for a screenshot of your southern scouting near and around the Horde borders.

2 turns ago we offered this same service for a general desciption of where the Horde was. We were turned down at that time and sent went on our way. While it is true you provided such a description in your last message, our negotiations had been concluded beforehand as far as we knew and our offer was not meant to be open indefinitely, particularly not without confirmation from us of the deal still being open; we apologize if this was not made clear.

Information changes from turn to turn, and we had already deduced that Team Horde was to your south during those those two turns, and have spent them moving towards the area to scout for ourselves. A screenshot removes much of the need to scout for ourselves, however, and will thus be considered payment enough at the present time. This offer will only be good for a very limited time, however. Each turn we move away lessens the value of such a screenshot, and lengthens the time it would take for us to backtrack.

As for the location of Horses, Team Mercenary already has this knowledge, and does not require your assistance here. As such, your scout will not be welcome needed inside our borders.

Team Mercenary can agree to keep the specifics of your terrain confidential for a limited number of turns to be discussed. However, permanent secrecy of these specifics will require substantial payment as it will severely limit Team Mercenary in map or screenshot trades for the duration of the game.

Note: We could always agree to blacken out the area Sarantium's city radius or something, so I don't think that statement can be truthfully made about screenshots, just actual map trades...

Team Mercenary will be revealing all deals we have made. This one is no exception. If Team Sarantium wishes their name to be left off the log, some form of tribute confidentiality fee will be required.

-UnOrthOdOx
Team Mercenary Representative.

So here is the changed version:

Dear Sarantium

Team Mercenary is willing to turn its scout around and agree to scout your terrain for sources of copper in return for a screenshot of your southern scouting near and around the Horde borders.

2 turns ago we offered this same service for a general desciption of where the Horde was. We were turned down at that time and went on our way. While it is true you provided such a description in your last message, our negotiations had been concluded beforehand as far as we knew and our offer was not meant to be open indefinitely, particularly not without confirmation from us of the deal still being open; we apologize if this was not made clear.

Information changes from turn to turn, and we had already deduced that Team Horde was to your south during those those two turns, and have spent them moving towards the area to scout for ourselves. A screenshot removes much of the need to scout for ourselves, however, and will thus be considered payment enough at the present time. This offer will only be good for a very limited time, however. Each turn we move away lessens the value of such a screenshot, and lengthens the time it would take for us to backtrack.

As for the location of Horses, Team Mercenary already has this knowledge, and does not require your assistance here. As such, your scout will not be needed inside our borders.

Team Mercenary can agree to keep the specifics of your terrain confidential for a limited number of turns to be discussed. However, permanent secrecy of these specifics will require substantial payment as it will severely limit Team Mercenary in map trades for the duration of the game.

Team Mercenary will be revealing all deals we have made. This one is no exception. If Team Sarantium wishes their name to be left off the log, some form of confidentiality fee will be required.

-UnOrthOdOx
Team Mercenary Representative.